5 year old horses at Training Level

[Texarkana]

@endlessclimb

But I think, by and large with your average adult ammy, a horse should not be doing training as a 5 year old. They simply do not know what they do not know, they haven’t been on earth long enough to confidently bail a rider’s mistake out.

Problem is, there is no such thing as “the average adult ammy.”

There are riders. There are good riders, there are mediocre riders, there are bad riders… and varying shades of experience and knowledge within each category. You can be a “bad” rider because you are an inexperienced beginner, but have the potential to be quite good with knowledge and experience. You can be a lifelong mediocre rider even if you are a pro paid to train numerous horses.

I don’t think an inexperienced and/or poor rider should be competing at training level period, and I definitely don’t think they should be doing it on a green horse.

But I trust someone capable to be able to fairly assess if the horse is ready regardless of their pro or amateur designation.

I can remember when there was no BN. And when did novice become recognized? Training used to literally be where horses started, hence the name.

[RAyers]

Anybody who knows me knows this is how I approach riding, so I will say she means me.

[Willesdon]

Doesn’t the USEA have a role here? Who else is in a position to improve rider education; to promote better knowledge and skills in the trainers and coaches; to ensure that course design standards are adequately and regularly met; to educate the course designers and builders. Much of this debate seems to be about capabilities and ability. But there is no consistency or agreement about what those may be.

[trubandloki]

@Mounted

Good grief. This sort of cruel and uninformed judgement is why I left these forums well over 15 years ago.

Don’t let one stubborn person ruin the forum for you. Just ignore the person who likes to insist their way is the only right way, always.

You are making great points.

[TXnGA]

IME- it depends.

It depends on the horse. It depends on the rider. I would also say that the majority of AA aren’t learned enough to take a 5 yr old training level.

I have had multiple 5 year olds run training level in their 5 year old year. But I’m a pro, it’s no big deal.

Most recent horses ( within last 5 years):

#1 did training level as a 5 year old, had no problems. Didn’t do YEH, just wasn’t the type they are looking for.

#2 did training early in his 5 year old year, had run 6 novices ( recognized and unrecognized) and was ready. Did the YEH stuff and went to championships. It is a lot for a young horse- so they have to not only be physically ready, but mentally ready. And the rider has to be a strong support for the young horses.

#3 a 5 year old that wasn’t ready for training until late summer. Horse lacked both strength and sometimes didn’t know where all parts were. Tried to move him up over summer to training level at a unrecognized, schooled the xc and realized, he needs another novice run to truly understand the galloping/ running/ jumping - did a T/N that weekend.- and he galloped around like a old professional. Decided not to do any of the YEH stuff because he wasn’t mentally or physically ready for the majority of the year. Successfully, Moved up to training level last weekend at a recognized and horse was a rockstar in all 3 phases. He is NOW physically strong enough and mentally knows the job . Proud mom moment.

So yes, some horses are fine doing training level as 5 year old. Some are not physically, or mentally ready. Hopefully, the rider knows and understands this and just doesn’t move the horse up to tick a box.

[Bearx2]

I think your anti eventing bias ( which I have seen on multiply threads ) is keeping you from seeing the fact that many five year old’s go around training level just fine and that it is possible for some adult ammys to get a young horse around at that level. Just because you would not go training level on a five year old doesn’t make it wrong or dangerous if someone else does. It is up to us as individual riders make sure we are riding horses at an appropriate level and that can only happen if strengths and weakness of each horse is taken into consideration.

[dmveventer]

The USEA is working on this already. Last year they published the Eventing Handbook by the Levels which lays out in great detail what the expectations are for riders at each level broken out by phase, with sections explaining what instructors should be capable of teaching riders at each level. It’s free for USEA members and worth a read.

The Eventing Coaches Program is attempting to standardize competencies for instructors and provide them with continuing education opportunities. A big focus is on safety - evaluating when riders are ready to move up or not, making sure riders and horses are doing the fitness work needed for the level and emphasizing horsemanship skills.

[trubandloki]

The manual with what instructors should know and such sounds brilliant.

To me it seems like something non-members need almost more than members. People just starting out need it to find a good trainer to start their way into this sport.

[Willesdon]

@dmveventer That is excellent news that needs to be widely disseminated.

ETA I was curious so went to the USEA website to look for the Handbook. I found nothing by looking through multiple menu headings - education, safety, training … Did a “search” and had one hit for an article that referenced it. Then did a Google search for “Eventing Handbook Through The Levels” and so found it. Obviously, 2002 has long passed in the memory of USEA web persons.

[dmveventer]

Non-members can buy the handbook on the USEA website. There’s also a ton of free info to help people find a qualified coach through ECP, including a directory and explanations of what each level of coaching certification qualifies someone for.

[Willesdon]

My point was that such a useful resource is not up front, central and in flashing lights somewhere on the USEA website. One has to know about it to go and look for it.

[dmveventer]

It was widely publicized when they published it. There were articles, podcasts, etc about the handbook itself and then it played a central role in the ECP symposium and was mentioned in several of the readouts there. The website’s priority is pointing people to the ECP directory so they can find a qualified coach, which is more important IMO. A certified coach can point people to the handbook and help them understand it. The handbook is clear that riders moving up the levels should be doing so with the guidance of a qualified instructor - the book only goes so far without the knowledge and experience (yours or a coach’s) to really understand how the skills play out in all the different scenarios you might encounter at an event, which brings us back to the bigger point of this thread about judgment and feel.

[SadieRidingHorses]

@dmveventer and @Willesdon, thank you for your discussion - I am a pretty dialed-in USEA member and had never heard of the handbook, but I just downloaded my free copy. I do wish USEA might it easier to find, but I got there eventually.

[quietann]

The USEA website IMO is a mess and needs a serious upgrade.

[skydy]

The difference is striking. Experienced Event rider, breeder and trainer of Event horses;

@EventerAJ

@endlessclimb

Let’s continue this discussion here, to be respectful of the other topic.

Some feel that Training level is “categorically impossible” for a five year old horse.

I disagree.

I don’t believe Training level is achievable for EVERY 5 year old, nor should it be. But an accomplished, experienced competitor on an athletic, well-started 5 year old is certainly within the realm of being safe and educational for the horse.

I’ve done it, twice. I’ve also not done it. It entirely depends on the horse in question. For some horses, Training level is EASY. Like novice, or BN even, for other horses. They have talent to jump bigger fences, and just step over 1m. They have balance and strength to handle modest changes in terrain. They don’t bat an eye at ditches or banks or water, and can land on their feet well enough to skip through combinations. They have been ridden straight, positively, and forward through varieties of questions to feel comfortable answering them on course. The first 5yo OTTB I took Training was at the totally wrong venue (much harder than I wanted!) but he stepped up, jumped super and actually won it that day. He eventually went on to win Richland Park CCI** (now 3* level) three years later. Talent is talent and Training level was nothing for him.

My current 5yo has schooled and competed at unrecognized Training level. I haven’t bothered paying the extra $$ to enter him recognized yet, but he could go out there and jump around with no issue. He is a homebred, he’s been hacked out on xc courses since he was 3, walking over ditches and trotting through water. At age 4, I started him “real” xc. And he was a chicken! Lacked confidence over baby logs! He was NO WHERE near ready for YEH-4 classes (especially in early FL season), so we didn’t do that. However, by summer, he was starting to figure out beginner novice. And then everything clicked and he got bolder. Novice was no problem in late fall (4yo) and early winter (5yo). He was ready for YEH-5 this spring, and jumped well in the class We were schooling Training level by that point. He’s jumping better and better as the fences get bigger. He’s pretty much point and shoot on XC, will pack almost anyone around BN and N if you can steer and look up. I see no reason to keep competing him at novice; he can putz around having fun but not learning much, or I can take him Training level (sparingly) where he has to pay attention a little more, go forward more, or use his brain a little more. If I sell him one day, I would rather give him the education NOW, when I know I can do a good job giving him confidence, skills, and knowledge; versus selling him less experienced and risking his next rider (jr/ammy) making mistakes and losing his confidence (BTDT with another homebred).

[quote=“EventerAJ, post:1, topic:789606, full:true”]
@endlessclimb

Rider with (admittedly) little experience riding and training young event horses to training level and above;

@endlessclimb

I don’t disagree that it depends. But I think, by and large with your average adult ammy, a horse should not be doing training as a 5 year old. They simply do not know what they do not know, they haven’t been on earth long enough to confidently bail a rider’s mistake out.

@endlessclimb

If you, as a rider, are 100% sure that your horse will get you out of a jam or is prepared to answer the questions at the level, or that you’re so good you can set that marginally rideable baby up perfectly every time, then by all means go right on ahead. How many people and how many 5 year olds fit that criteria? And if they don’t, why are they saying “screw it, let’s wing it” when the fences do not fall down?

@endlessclimb

I categorically go slower on my training with my horses though, because all it takes is one mishap where a horse is over faced and you’ve created a lifelong confidence issue.

Are you training your horse(s) to compete in Eventing? There are a great many people in the Eventing world who are fully capable of bringing up young horses and giving them the time they need, just as many riders and trainers in Dressage, Showjumping, Foxhunting etc… take the time required to train their horses as individuals.

Some people, in every discipline, are not cut out to train horses well, and while bad dressage training doesn’t often result in the death of a horse (it does happen), it certainly is responsible for injury and lameness, resulting in some horses ending up as pasture puffs or with a relatively short lifespan.

There are people who are not qualified to train in any discipline and they do quite a bit of damage to the horses in their charge. I do think you are painting with an awfully broad brush, as far as Eventing is concerned.

[endlessclimb]

@skydy

Rider with (admittedly) little experience riding and training young event horses to training level and above

Ahh, see this is the key. I have trained many horses to JUMP, and quite a bit higher than training height fences.

The key difference is the consequence for a mistake on the horse’s part.

A show jumping round on a 5 year old is way different than running at something solid. Even still, I am very very hesitant to put a 5 year old in a 1m class. What in god’s earth is everyone’s rush? Why not let the horse have some more confidence building miles?

[Marigold]

@endlessclimb

A show jumping round on a 5 year old is way different than running at something solid.

This is true. And “running at something solid” is way different than eventing. There does appear to be a difference in understanding amongst commenters as to what it takes from both horse and rider to event competently at Training level, at 5 years old or at 15.

I would encourage you to try eventing with a reputable trainer one day. Done properly, from the very lowest levels it has a lot of joy to offer both horse and rider.

[endlessclimb]

What doesn’t change, and where my hangup is, is the consequence for a mistake. It’s understandable that a 5 year old might make a mistake. What’s not understandable [[to me]] is asking him to do that over something solid. That is not a risk I would EVER take with a horse that young, with that few miles. I’m in the business of trying my best to set a horse up for success 100% of the time.

To each their own, I guess?

[Marigold]

@endlessclimb

What doesn’t change, and where my hangup is, is the consequence for a mistake. It’s understandable that a 5 year old might make a mistake. What’s not understandable [[to me]] is asking him to do that over something solid. That is not a risk I would EVER take with a horse that young, with that few miles.

To answer this at face value, there are a few things to address here:

1. “A horse that young, with that few miles” - young doesn’t necessarily mean completely inexperienced. The 6 year old World Championships are run at 2*, the 7 year olds a level higher. Those horses have been prepared (carefully, and judiciously) for years to get them to that level, and that includes running Training as 5 year olds - but also likely includes running Novice as 4 year olds, etc.

2. “It is understandable that a 5 year old might make a mistake” absolutely (and frankly it is understandable that a 10 year old might make a mistake too - heck, I’m numerous decades older than that and I’m still making mistakes), but the type of mistake they are likely to make very much depends on the 5 year old. An athletic 5 year old with talent for the upper levels is still operating well below their challenge level at Training, and thus they are mostly likely to make a mistake by doing something of little consequence at that level (leaving a stride early, spooking and not getting their eye on the jump until late), or by doing something they can get themselves out of (getting in tight and having to helicopter out of it a bit, not picking up their feet properly and whacking their ankles). A 5 year old who’s lifetime career will top out at Training? Probably a less appropriate choice. But that is why it is up to the rider (as appropriate, with their trainer) to help determine Category A or Category B. I have known many 5 year olds for whom Training was no more difficult than poles scattered about the arena. I have known others who would have been overfaced, and who would have come away scared at best. The first group does not deserve to be punished for the limitations of the second, and the second group ought not be held to the expectations of the first. Rider responsibility is a real thing.

[Live_Wire]

Training isn’t a huge ask of a horse that has the proper foundation. The majority of horses are capable of competing at Training successfully. I have seen many average horse become exceptional with the good training.

Cross Country fences are very inviting to horses and encourage them to jump better and more properly than any stadium fence will do. I’m more inclined to wing it over a Training coop that drill a 3’ vertical in an arena. To each their own.