5 year old horses at Training Level

[beowulf]

Something pointed out a few times that I felt bears repeating is, when you are on a well bred horse, Training can be very easy. What holds back the “average amateur” (if there even is one!) is often they are buying horses coming off of other careers - it takes time to unlearn their former discipline’s training, and then time to train them how to event. From their perspective, having a horse going Training at five can seem impossible.

When you have a horse you back yourself, it’s very different. Those horses come out of the gate on much better footing than a horse coming off the track or from another discipline. Some of them already have the natural balance and confidence in their body that you[g] would spend months installing on an off-track horse.

My last horse that went Training did so at 6 - ironic to the topic of this thread, I took him back down to Novice shortly after. He had the scope that made any Training question incredibly easy, but his rideability wasn’t there and frankly, my riding wasn’t as good either. I joined a BNT program to work specifically on this. Most of the horses in this BNT barn were four to six years old and going Training or Prelim. He was considered “behind” in his education. When you are in a top class barn, with young horses going through the “UL Pipeline”, you’ll realize that for them, Training is not a big ask at all.

[JenJ]

Unfortunately too many pros with very athletic 4 and 5 year olds do not follow the logic and program set out in this incredibly well expressed post.

Pro has had one top level horse, for example with a Rolex Kentucky completion, and desperately wants to get back to that level, go to the Olympics, WEG, etc. Pro is a very skilled rider with a new prospective upper level horse every couple of years. Training at 5 (easily and safely done), move up the levels as soon as the horse’s age allows it. No question the horses have the physical ability, but the brain is not ready. Result is that a horse with true Olympic potential is ruined (mentally or physically) at the age of 7 or 8 bc the rider had Paris 2024 as a goal, rather than giving the horse an extra year at Prelim and Intermediate and a realistic goal of the 2026 WEG or 2028 Olympics with a more mature well adjusted horse.

someone else said … why the rush? … $$$$ and the pros’ own ambition

[Xanthoria]

Listen to the latest In Stride podcast. Allison Springer discusses a bit about how challenging the young horse classes can be for some horses and how they could make it easier while still showing potential. She also talks about how she feels many young Irish sales horses are fried, mentally.

My mare could easily have gone T with a pro at 5 but she’s stuck with me so started competing T at 6.5. There are so many variables between horse and rider and venue that you can’t say it’s not ok to do. For the right combination it’s just not a big deal.

[Marigold]

@EventerAJ

If I feel the horse doesn’t have the athleticism, talent, and body awareness to handle an imperfect distance jumps of height, I’m certainly not going to compete him at that level.

Your whole post was excellent, and thank you for the contribution, but the sentence above is the crux of the matter, and the part that I think riders looking in from the outside can sometimes miss. Perfectly stated.

@Xanthoria

Listen to the latest In Stride podcast. Allison Springer discusses a bit about how challenging the young horse classes can be for some horses and how they could make it easier while still showing potential.

She also talks about the importance of moving both up and down the levels, regardless of on-paper success, based on the feedback you get from the horse underneath you. She discusses a mare of hers that won her first Prelim, but then dropped back and did four more Modifieds because Allison felt the mare was a bit taken aback by the effort she had to put in at the higher level. She re-established confidence before an outsider looking in would ever have known there was an issue. The mare is now successful at 3* and she is eyeing Advanced.

[Xanthoria]

Yeah it’s a good listen! Here’s the link for anyone interested https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/in-stride/id1602148957?i=1000630977075

[Mondo]

@skydy

There are plenty of 5 yr old horses that are fully capable of jumping a 1 meter SJ course, when they are properly brought along by a good rider/trainer. Others are not, and more people than you seem to think are capable of knowing what each horse is capable of and how not to over-face them.

My horse was doing 1.3m competition at 5 years old in Germany (SJ) before he was imported to the U.S. He’s 21 now, very sound. He’s only done dressage since. I’m certain jumping big jumps was a sales tactic for a young horse, just as the fact that he knew a little p/p when he was imported. But I don’t think the seller would have shown him successfully at that age if he wasn’t ready to do it.

[endlessclimb]

Are we conflating a horse’s willingness (or ability) to do something, with their preparedness to do something?

It’s been discussed ad nauseum here that horses jumping pretty big tracks in Europe get imported, and are WAY less educated/broke than one might presume based on their record, but it was hidden by good/assertive riding.

So yes, I can agree that a rider can make up for a horse’s lack of knowledge.

And yes, I can agree that a naturally talented horse can probably do a prelim at 5.

The question is more of “is that a good idea, and is the horse actually prepared to answer the questions asked if it goes haywire in any way” and, to me, a 5 year old has not been breathing air long enough to answer that question with a confident YES.

It’s possible that the 5 year old is more schooled than the 12 year old that sat in a pasture, sure. But a 5 year old, for sure, can not possibly have the miles of a well-schooled 12 year old.

[GreyDes]

@endlessclimb - Even in my small circle I can think of several professionals and a few competent ammies who have done this successfully with multiple horses.

I don’t have the skills/guts/interest personally, but plenty of people do. This isn’t an outlier or something that only a few elite riders/horses can pull off.

[endlessclimb]

@Amberley

It’s a lack of time spent riding outside the arena imho.

I think this is my hang up, is that I know way way way way too many riders who are terrified to get out of the sand box, but by-god they’re going to go XC! And a lot of them can muscle the horse around the course and get it done, however ugly it may be.

But ask those same people to join you for a trail ride and you’re looked at like you’ve got three heads and came straight out of the boonies.

It used to be that nearly everyone was out of the box, riding wherever. And I’ve seen that trend change drastically in the years I’ve been riding.

Even on here - the first thing I always suggest when someone is asking about a sticky youngster is to get the hell out of the arena. Note on here that there is push back almost every time I suggest it.

So, I suppose it is the experiences I have had, coupled with my successful training methods doing it “my way” (no stoppers, no run-outters, just honest horses who come to a fence ready to attack it), the slow way, the “I never want a horse’s confidence rocked” way, that makes me think that a 5 year old is a baby that should not be going at solid fences at training speeds.

[RAyers]

I will counter your argument as I would rather train a horse over solid fences than stadium fences. A log on the ground is more natural and inviting than any cross rail or flower box. A full growing sage brush is better than any oxer I can think of. And in my methods and philosophy, I get a bolder, more confident horse in the arena.

Your post also suggests you do not understand speed on XC course. We never tracked jumping any faster than 450mpm (training speed) at Advanced, including Rolex etc. (See my Speed Study). Horses at lower levels tend to jump around 350 or lower (arena gallop speed at best - jumper speed).

My 1980 self playing over a log with my jumper.

[EventerAJ]

@MsRidiculous

I also believe 100% that you can just as easily sour (or inspire them to develop some “creative” habits to entertain themselves) a really smart and talented one by doing the same “uninteresting” thing over and over and over. The whole point of being a good rider/young horse trainer is understanding that they’re all different, and then doing what that particular horse requires in order to learn and thrive.

As to this question: “Why not let the horse have some more confidence building miles?”
Lord above, if my now-6yo had gotten any more “confidence building miles” below 1m as a 5yo, I think his ego might have exploded right out of his body.

I think this is something that many riders don’t understand, unless you’ve been there done that. For some talented horses, holding them back is MORE dangerous than moving them up. Some horses just don’t do well at lower levels; they get complacent, arrogant, and careless when the jumps and questions don’t hold their attention.

I want to ride a confident horse, not an arrogant one. There is a big difference. A confident horse is safe, smart, brave but studious. An arrogant horse is “stupid brave” and needs to earn a little humility, through bigger challenges or more complex questions. He needs to learn “assumptions” have consequences (in a safe, controlled manner).

If you’ve never ridden an arrogant horse, you won’t understand the relief you feel when you move up and the horse gets better. It’s the rider/trainer’s job to manage the horse’s confidence carefully, so natural bravery is preserved but it doesn’t boil over into an unsafe cocky ego.

[beowulf]

I don’t know many eventers that are terrified to get out of the arena. I am sure there are some, but it’s not the majority. Half of our local hunt is eventers. Looking over our hunter pace rosters, it’s all eventers (and some competitive trail riders). Eventers are galloping down Cranes Beach right now in Ipswich. I truck into a major local event hub here and there’s constantly boarders out on the trails. I really don’t see people being afraid to leave the sandbox factoring in a major way - those people usually don’t even compete, so they aren’t statistically relevant from a safety-tracking standpoint.

There’s value in pointing out that the opportunities to leave the sandbox have dwindled, though. We’re lucky in Area 1 to have a lot of conservation and open spaces, including over historic tracts of Hunting and/or old Event lands (Shepley Hill, Ledyard, etc) but others aren’t so lucky. With barns squeezed in around rising house developments, it becomes harder to expose horses and riders to open land; which is another topic for a different thread, but I don’t think falls at Training and up have much to do with amateur riders being terrified to leave the sandbox. If you are jumping at Training, you’re seeing a lot of mileage out of the ring between fitness days and XC.

[endlessclimb]

My BO is one of the ones that literally never leaves the ring unless it’s for XC. She rides training.

Around here, I know she’s not the only one. Like you said, good riding opportunities outside of the ring are often a whole-day-trip, requiring some to take PTO. I know all of the local trails like the back of my hand, so can turn a “1.5 mile loop” into an all day ride, at a place only 20 minutes away.

Too many people have a rambunctious 4 year old that they’re scared of, and the arena feels safe.

[endlessclimb]

I feel like I don’t need to raise the fences to challenge any horse - instead ill work more on the footwork or grids of increasing complexity. Even Wofford didn’t advocate jacking the fences.

[endlessclimb]

I understand what you’re saying, but brush is another one of my pet peeves - some horses are smart enough to visually differentiate they can jump through “this” but not “that”, and others are not and will start hanging over everything in hopes it’s a brush.

I have seen young horses scared from hitting something solid, hard. Even a little log can scare them. I’m sure some horses hit that and learn but some hit it and say “screw that, I don’t want to do that anymore.” Same concept as the a-holes who turn 4x4s edge-out to sharpen a horse.

[EventerAJ]

@endlessclimb

think this is my hang up, is that I know way way way way too many riders who are terrified to get out of the sand box, but by-god they’re going to go XC! And a lot of them can muscle the horse around the course and get it done, however ugly it may be.

But ask those same people to join you for a trail ride and you’re looked at like you’ve got three heads and came straight out of the boonies.

It used to be that nearly everyone was out of the box, riding wherever. And I’ve seen that trend change drastically in the years I’ve been riding.

Even on here - the first thing I always suggest when someone is asking about a sticky youngster is to get the hell out of the arena. Note on here that there is push back almost every time I suggest it.

So, I suppose it is the experiences I have had, coupled with my successful training methods doing it “my way” (no stoppers, no run-outters, just honest horses who come to a fence ready to attack it), the slow way, the “I never want a horse’s confidence rocked” way, that makes me think that a 5 year old is a baby that should not be going at solid fences at training speeds.

A rider who never rides out of the sandbox has no business bringing a young horse along, IMO. So, yeah, I think your (admittedly) limited perspective is probably correct that THAT rider has no business going training level on a 5yo.

But my perspective is entirely different. My horses are in the arena 2x a week, max. They are OUT of the arena 3 to 5 days a week. They hack down the road, passed by dump trucks and log trucks. They go trail riding through swamps and mud, and hills when I can find them. My BABY horses are doing this-- the 2yo racehorses, the 3yo eventers. They hack out for a year before they ever see their first jump (that’s probably a log).

“Your way” is not the only way to be successful (“no stoppers, no run-outters, just honest horses…”). My way also produces confident horses, and it so happens that some of them are ready to go Training level in their second year of eventing. The ability to bring horses along at a speed faster than yours is probably a function of my own experience and confidence, and my exposure to other upper level eventers who have more talent, experience, and horseflesh than myself. I’m always willing to learn, and most importantly LISTEN to the horse I’m sitting on and view the world through his eyes.

It’s a bit shortsighted to pretend that there is only one way to make a successful, confident horse.

[RAyers]

Notice, you are only allowing your experiences to establish something that you advocate for all to ascribe to. Yet, you also acknowledge that not every horse/rider is the same.

I know what has worked for me and the horses with who I have been successful. I recognized with my other horses that this wasn’t going to work so I moved along rather than torture the poor horse.

[enjoytheride]

If you’ve never trained a horse to jump who’s stopped or ran out than you are truly a better rider than everyone else in the saddle dead or alive.

[Marigold]

@RAyers

Notice, you are only allowing your experiences to establish something that you advocate for all to ascribe to. Yet, you also acknowledge that not every horse/rider is the same.

This, and worth noting that @endlessclimb has acknowledged that their firsthand experiences are of witnessing riders who are doing it “wrong” in their estimation (and with respect to the never-leaving-the-sandbox issue, I agree that is not the way to raise a successful event horse). See:

@endlessclimb

I know way way way way too many riders who are terrified to get out of the sand box, but by-god they’re going to go XC!

@endlessclimb

My BO is one of the ones that literally never leaves the ring unless it’s for XC. She rides training.

If you can understand that the rider you are witnessing is going about producing an event horse in a less-than-ideal way, surely you can imagine that a rider who does produce an event horse outside of the ring will have improved results over the people you have witnessed first-hand. Is it so much of a leap to concede that a horse that is properly prepared will be more competent on course than those that you personally know?

@EventerAJ

If you’ve never ridden an arrogant horse, you won’t understand the relief you feel when you move up and the horse gets better. It’s the rider/trainer’s job to manage the horse’s confidence carefully, so natural bravery is preserved but it doesn’t boil over into an unsafe cocky ego.

This. My horse was confident at Training for most of a season, and then she was arrogant. Arrogant is not a pleasant experience, nor is it nearly so safe as confident. We moved her along in her progression, and when the jumps were that little bit bigger and more technical she returned to accepting my input while still being confident. “Relief” is exactly the word for it.

[elizabeth_Callahan]

Adult ammie rider here . I have brought multiple home bred up the levels and to the YEH. Before he YEH started, i had one that did training at 5, prelim at 6 and continued to do prelim until 12 , when i bred her . She was not the most talented, but great with her feet. I qualified another 2 for the YEH Championships. 1 I had a pro ride, another I rode myself . We didn’t win, but finished with a clear round and she was not backed off in the slightest. I’ve had others that were in no way ready, and didn’t do training until 7.
Currently , I have a 4 year old who is going with a pro to the Championships next week. She has done 1 recognized event and 2 qualifiers so she hasn’t been jumped off her feet. She won’t win, but she will gain valuable experience in a big atmosphere .
You have to know the horse you are on - some are ready and some not.