5 year old horses at Training Level

[endlessclimb]

My BO is one of the ones that literally never leaves the ring unless it’s for XC. She rides training.

Around here, I know she’s not the only one. Like you said, good riding opportunities outside of the ring are often a whole-day-trip, requiring some to take PTO. I know all of the local trails like the back of my hand, so can turn a “1.5 mile loop” into an all day ride, at a place only 20 minutes away.

Too many people have a rambunctious 4 year old that they’re scared of, and the arena feels safe.

[endlessclimb]

I feel like I don’t need to raise the fences to challenge any horse - instead ill work more on the footwork or grids of increasing complexity. Even Wofford didn’t advocate jacking the fences.

[endlessclimb]

I understand what you’re saying, but brush is another one of my pet peeves - some horses are smart enough to visually differentiate they can jump through “this” but not “that”, and others are not and will start hanging over everything in hopes it’s a brush.

I have seen young horses scared from hitting something solid, hard. Even a little log can scare them. I’m sure some horses hit that and learn but some hit it and say “screw that, I don’t want to do that anymore.” Same concept as the a-holes who turn 4x4s edge-out to sharpen a horse.

[EventerAJ]

@endlessclimb

think this is my hang up, is that I know way way way way too many riders who are terrified to get out of the sand box, but by-god they’re going to go XC! And a lot of them can muscle the horse around the course and get it done, however ugly it may be.

But ask those same people to join you for a trail ride and you’re looked at like you’ve got three heads and came straight out of the boonies.

It used to be that nearly everyone was out of the box, riding wherever. And I’ve seen that trend change drastically in the years I’ve been riding.

Even on here - the first thing I always suggest when someone is asking about a sticky youngster is to get the hell out of the arena. Note on here that there is push back almost every time I suggest it.

So, I suppose it is the experiences I have had, coupled with my successful training methods doing it “my way” (no stoppers, no run-outters, just honest horses who come to a fence ready to attack it), the slow way, the “I never want a horse’s confidence rocked” way, that makes me think that a 5 year old is a baby that should not be going at solid fences at training speeds.

A rider who never rides out of the sandbox has no business bringing a young horse along, IMO. So, yeah, I think your (admittedly) limited perspective is probably correct that THAT rider has no business going training level on a 5yo.

But my perspective is entirely different. My horses are in the arena 2x a week, max. They are OUT of the arena 3 to 5 days a week. They hack down the road, passed by dump trucks and log trucks. They go trail riding through swamps and mud, and hills when I can find them. My BABY horses are doing this-- the 2yo racehorses, the 3yo eventers. They hack out for a year before they ever see their first jump (that’s probably a log).

“Your way” is not the only way to be successful (“no stoppers, no run-outters, just honest horses…”). My way also produces confident horses, and it so happens that some of them are ready to go Training level in their second year of eventing. The ability to bring horses along at a speed faster than yours is probably a function of my own experience and confidence, and my exposure to other upper level eventers who have more talent, experience, and horseflesh than myself. I’m always willing to learn, and most importantly LISTEN to the horse I’m sitting on and view the world through his eyes.

It’s a bit shortsighted to pretend that there is only one way to make a successful, confident horse.

[RAyers]

Notice, you are only allowing your experiences to establish something that you advocate for all to ascribe to. Yet, you also acknowledge that not every horse/rider is the same.

I know what has worked for me and the horses with who I have been successful. I recognized with my other horses that this wasn’t going to work so I moved along rather than torture the poor horse.

[enjoytheride]

If you’ve never trained a horse to jump who’s stopped or ran out than you are truly a better rider than everyone else in the saddle dead or alive.

[Marigold]

@RAyers

Notice, you are only allowing your experiences to establish something that you advocate for all to ascribe to. Yet, you also acknowledge that not every horse/rider is the same.

This, and worth noting that @endlessclimb has acknowledged that their firsthand experiences are of witnessing riders who are doing it “wrong” in their estimation (and with respect to the never-leaving-the-sandbox issue, I agree that is not the way to raise a successful event horse). See:

@endlessclimb

I know way way way way too many riders who are terrified to get out of the sand box, but by-god they’re going to go XC!

@endlessclimb

My BO is one of the ones that literally never leaves the ring unless it’s for XC. She rides training.

If you can understand that the rider you are witnessing is going about producing an event horse in a less-than-ideal way, surely you can imagine that a rider who does produce an event horse outside of the ring will have improved results over the people you have witnessed first-hand. Is it so much of a leap to concede that a horse that is properly prepared will be more competent on course than those that you personally know?

@EventerAJ

If you’ve never ridden an arrogant horse, you won’t understand the relief you feel when you move up and the horse gets better. It’s the rider/trainer’s job to manage the horse’s confidence carefully, so natural bravery is preserved but it doesn’t boil over into an unsafe cocky ego.

This. My horse was confident at Training for most of a season, and then she was arrogant. Arrogant is not a pleasant experience, nor is it nearly so safe as confident. We moved her along in her progression, and when the jumps were that little bit bigger and more technical she returned to accepting my input while still being confident. “Relief” is exactly the word for it.

[elizabeth_Callahan]

Adult ammie rider here . I have brought multiple home bred up the levels and to the YEH. Before he YEH started, i had one that did training at 5, prelim at 6 and continued to do prelim until 12 , when i bred her . She was not the most talented, but great with her feet. I qualified another 2 for the YEH Championships. 1 I had a pro ride, another I rode myself . We didn’t win, but finished with a clear round and she was not backed off in the slightest. I’ve had others that were in no way ready, and didn’t do training until 7.
Currently , I have a 4 year old who is going with a pro to the Championships next week. She has done 1 recognized event and 2 qualifiers so she hasn’t been jumped off her feet. She won’t win, but she will gain valuable experience in a big atmosphere .
You have to know the horse you are on - some are ready and some not.

[beowulf]

@Amberley

I was at Tryon last year for the Pony Club Championships and they ran a schooling event the same weekend and there were people from both events worrying out loud about the footing or blaming it for problems. I walked all over that course and I’ve never seen nicer footing in my life.

Weren’t those concerns about the ground being hard and slick? That is an area that gets sunbaked and the later in the summer it runs, the more slippery the footing even when dry.

I qualified to go to USPC Championships this year but opted not to because it was way out of budget. I heard the footing was great and the event fantastic, though.

People are always going to scratch if the footing doesn’t agree with them. I say all the more power to them for putting their horse before their competitive needs, as long as they don’t expect a refund from the event.

[skydy]

@endlessclimb

Are we conflating a horse’s willingness (or ability) to do something, with their preparedness to do something?

No, I don’t see anyone here that is confusing willingness with preparedness. Most riders and trainers here are intelligent enough know the difference.

[EventerAJ]

@endlessclimb

I feel like I don’t need to raise the fences to challenge any horse - instead ill work more on the footwork or grids of increasing complexity. Even Wofford didn’t advocate jacking the fences.

I used to feel this way, too.

Until I had a horse who really, truly benefited from big fences. Ask @Xctrygirl. My ingrained instinct is to keep fences low until the rideability is sufficient to move up. But I had to learn SOME horses are different and you adapt to what works best for them. My big, strong, athletic gelding railroaded through life over 1m and below, I did poles/cavaletti/bounces all the usual low stuff. I was still working REALLY hard to hold him together and keep his attention on the little fences and do the job correctly. Because there were no consequences to doing it wrong…he could run through the exercise, legs a-flailing, and athletically come out the other side saying “See, I didn’t need to do it your way I got it done.”

Xctrygirl suggested I put the SJ fences up-- way up, outside my normal comfort zone for a N/T horse. At 3’6", 3’9" and 4’, my big horse changed; he was rideable, my half-halts worked, he picked up his shoulders, he sat down on his hocks, and he LEARNED from his mistakes. And I learned, too-- to be willing to change, adapt, and try new methods. (Note: I did not bump him up on XC until our jumping rideability was more confirmed). I am VERY careful with this horse; he has talent, he is super brave, but he’s the type of horse who will get someone hurt, because he Never Says No and will absolutely try to jump anything, anywhere despite poor balance. So I spend a LONG time working on balance and strength, and I’m keenly aware of my decision-making when riding him. He’s turned into a really fun preliminary horse, and when he’s mentally ready for more complex questions, he could move up to Intermediate. This horse has bullet-proof confidence; no danger of losing it when he makes a mistake, but that comes with its own important rider responsibility.

[Salty]

I had a horse exactly like EventerAJ’s! He not only was arrogant and difficult over fences below about 3’ 9", I had a really hard time seeing a distance on him over lower fences. We both breathed a sigh of relief when the fences went up.

Because of the way he was, we mainly schooled dressage and terrain. Even in a gymnastic line, he’d take charge if he didn’t think it was challenging enough.

[endlessclimb]

Question, did you take this horse xc? Did he take charge there ever? I don’t mind a jump seeking missile, but a horse who completely tunes me out is a no for me.

[SadieRidingHorses]

@Amberley

They ride backyards to the fences and don’t have a feeling for jumping out of stride; they are afraid of jumping on grass; they aren’t fit- there is a notable weight/ fitness difference; they aren’t used to hills and ride them poorly; they don’t release over fences and instead choke up on the reins and don’t trust their horses to figure it out and they never trot a sticky part (a key part of my repertoire). It’s a lack of time spent riding outside the arena imho. That’s a problem. It’s a bigger problem if the horse is also meeting mud and hills for the first time.

This is all so important and wise - just saying!

[SadieRidingHorses]

@beowulf

I don’t know many eventers that are terrified to get out of the arena. I am sure there are some , but it’s not the majority. Half of our local hunt is eventers. Looking over our hunter pace rosters, it’s all eventers (and some competitive trail riders). Eventers are galloping down Cranes Beach right now in Ipswich. I truck into a major local event hub here and there’s constantly boarders out on the trails. I really don’t see people being afraid to leave the sandbox factoring in a major way - those people usually don’t even compete, so they aren’t statistically relevant from a safety-tracking standpoint

This is my experience as well as an adult amateur in Area 2. The folks in my barn get out of the ring on basically every ride, weather permitting. Warm up/cool down with a big lap around the property. Flatwork/conditioning work on the lovely sloping hill visible from the barn. And hack out on trails - including long walking hacks, conditioning hacks at trot/canter/gallop, cross the creek, wade in the river - folks are doing that all the time. Most of us hang out somewhere in the lower levels (I do for sure!), though folks going modified and above obviously hack out a lot too. I don’t think we’re unique.

This was part of the eventing culture that really attracted me when I came back to riding after a decades-long absence. At eventing barns, people do get their horses OUT, and I did not find this at h/j or dressage barns I tried. At one dressage barn, I was an outlier because I would ride my lease horse down the driveway and hack in an enclosed field instead of staying in the ring. I’m not super brave by any means - I just felt like this was necessary for the horse’s brain. And the same is true now on my mare - she’s fancy and has had a lot of lovely training (not by me), but it was good for her to see vultures flying off round bales while trying to balance during a trot down hill last weekend - better than doing 10 more leg yields in the ring. We’re not unique - that’s par for the course at my eventing barn.

[Bearx2]

Okay but that goes back to individual riders being responsible for themselves and their horses. You are right that not every one has the skill set to take a horse training and that if you truly are afraid of riding outside the area you probably shouldn’t event.

Having say that I am not sure what the best way to get people to take responsibility for themselves. Do you make harder move up requirements, do you have the TD pull them if they have trouble in warm up? I just am just not sure fundamentally changing eventing ( making the cross country jumps fall down , not having the upper levels etc) will protect horses from riders who don’t take take responsibility for themselves.

[Bonnie2]

Agree. Jumping only small fences until the horse is perfect only teaches the horse to jump small fences. The same is true for green riders. The horse’s technique changes significantly around 3’6”. Hence the difficulty in moving up in all jumping sports. My young horses see an occasional big fence in a grid. Wofford was also a proponent of having varied size fences in a grid. Not all the same and not progressively bigger. Mixing it up keeps the horse paying attention. I will use big single fences with friendly faces in a course for all but the greenest. Horse and rider need to learn the physicality of using their body over a bigger fence that is presented in such a way that it is a confidence builder both.

[Willesdon]

@Bearx2

…
Having say that I am not sure what the best way to get people to take responsibility for themselves. Do you make harder move up requirements, do you have the TD pull them if they have trouble in warm up? I just am just not sure fundamentally changing eventing ( making the cross country jumps fall down , not having the upper levels etc) will protect horses from riders who don’t take take responsibility for themselves.

The minimum requirements (MERs) in dressage and showjumping before running XC, the official “watch list” of “riders to keep a close eye on” over the season, the Fence Judges reporting problems as they happen around a course, the automatic drop down a level after a set number of falls in a season, frangibles, Rider Reps (all I can think of off the top of my head), these are designed to keep horse and rider safe. They may not be very obvious to other participants and spectators but actions are taken. There is also the “talking to” which means the TD, or Steward, or someone frightening enough, actually speaking immediately to the offender. For example, a rider going too fast to be safe, reported all around the course, might get a word from the TD at the finish or a rider jumping dangerously, such as attempting to jump from a halt will get a talking to. The aim is education, improvement and safety. The worst case of dire incompetence, many years ago, meant a rider had his membership of BE removed so he couldn’t compete any more. This does depend on a culture where officials are willing to enforce rules and standards and support their volunteers and also having people who aren’t too frightened to advocate on behalf of the horses.

ETA Very few riders know the rules. It can be very enlightening to read the Rule Book.

[McGurk]

I had a very talented, very athletic, very opinionated horse that didn’t bother picking his knees up or making an effort until the fences got well north of 3’.

His intended market was as a show hunter. I didn’t want to produce a horse that had to be poled or ridden into a deep spot before going into the ring, so I stopped schooling in the ring all together and ONLY rode him over big, solid fences in hunt country. There was a trend then to build fences out of railroad ties and telephone poles, not just traditional coops. When we returned to the ring, his front end was very tidy and he was very careful to his fences.

He was the kind of arrogant a$$hole who would gallop thru a low gymnastic and never pick up his knees. He only EVER showed at the bigger heights. Showing him at 2’6" or 2’9" would have made him cocky and lazy again.

[TwiSedai]

I have a draft cross I am sloooowly bringing along. He’s nowhere near ready to start jumping under saddle, but I like to let them lunge over little things sometimes to do something different and see how they like it. He didn’t really “get” jumping the little X or vertical, just wanted to trot over it even if you raised it. So I set a couple little jump blocks on their sides, pointed him at that, and it’s like the light bulb went off in his head. That was a few days ago.

I took him cross country “schooling” today (he was just tagging along with a group that was actually riding, so he could practice trailering out). I let him go up and down banks, over ditches, he happily popped over lots of small little things (all just on the lunge), he was VERY proud of himself. Something about a solid jump, in my experience, just makes more sense to them. I had no intentions on jumping this guy at all, but he seemed to enjoy it so much I might have to try it out when we get to that point now I love the solid jumps for when a greenie just isn’t “getting” it.