5mo pup pees in crate, on video; ideas?

[NRB]

So same pup whos fearful in another thread. He turns 5mo in few days. He’s peed in crate 5x now. 2x this week. Urine sample run at the vest and came back normal. I got video of today. this is what I saw on the 2.5hr video.

Pup happily crates and eats frozen PB kong. Lies down goes to sleep. Sleeps for long time. Wakes up, slowly. Chews a chew. Gets up. Circles. Whines. Paws the door of the crate, whines, circles alot. Then in the circling he stops for milli-second, back humps and timy amt of pee hits the floor (no bedding in crate) he looks surprised. Sniffs pee. Then whines, circles, paws at the door. Then pees for real. whines, paws door, circles, pees a third time. Whines. Sits. whines. stares at the door. lies down, sleeps. He soaked with pee when I get home. Crate isn;t big enough for him to get away from it.

What I see is a puppy who has to pee, wants to go out to potty in the right place, but can’t hold it and so pees inside the crate. Crate is a 30, any smaller adn he won’t be able to sit up or lie down. He fills this crate up.

He is from a breeder who used open crates in the expen and never closed him in the crate. To me and the vet (phone consult about the video) he’s a puppy who can;t hold his pee during the day. He needs an indoor potty.

I used to have him in an ex-pen. LEave the crate open. He’d pee in the ex-pen on occasion. I thought he should be able to go 2-3 hrs at 4mo so I started closing him in the crate. Then one day he peed. I left him in the ex-pen, Fine on day, pee the next. Then I crate. Then leave in ex-pen and video. Video shows puppy trying to jump out of the pen and getting hung up on the top rail. That scared me that he would get hurt so I went back to the crate and took the ex-pen up.

So my idea is to get 2 double door crates. One is right sz for him 30L and the other oversized 42L. I’ll put a puppy pee pad at the end of the large one?? and no bedding in the smaller one. Hope that he uses it as an indoor potty. After all he’s peed inside a crate 5x now, I know he can do it.

He is good in the house when I am home. I have him by my side. Or I allow him loose in the kitchen when I am working in there. He rings to bells on the kitchen door to potty. He’ll also ring the bells on the front door to potty if he and I are walking by the door.He goes all night 11pm to 6am not a peep and no peeing.

I leave town Thursday. Dog sitter will be here but she works a desk job. So pups going to be in something for 4hrs at a time. I usually never leave him more than 3 hrs. Most of the time he is fine, occasionally he pees. I have to find a solution fast!

Can’t leave him out in a room, to many dangerous things to chew. Dog room he chewed the molding and wooden railing. I don’t want wood splinters in his belly. Bathrooms have water hoses to toilet that a dog could get to.

[Simkie]

Five months is really old enough that he should be able to hold it for 3 hours. Perhaps he’s got sterile cystitis? A u/a would be clean if that’s the case, but a full bladder would case pain and he would have to void. Cosequin would be helpful if that’s the case.

Also fearful + anxious behavior when left in an x pen…have you thought about trying some Clomipramine? It did WONDERS for my anxiety dog.

(I do have a dog that peed in her crate Every. Day. for the first several months of her life. She just wasn’t concerned about it at all, and there was nothing medically wrong. We cleaned a lot of crates, and she got very good about baths. She finally stopped at about 6 months–I think it took her that long to figure out not peeing in the crate = not covered in pee! Wow! She is not real bright. So sometimes you do just have to wait them out :-/)

[NRB]

[QUOTE=Simkie;6386727]
Five months is really old enough that he should be able to hold it for 3 hours. Perhaps he’s got sterile cystitis? A u/a would be clean if that’s the case, but a full bladder would case pain and he would have to void. Cosequin would be helpful if that’s the case.

Also fearful + anxious behavior when left in an x pen…have you thought about trying some Clomipramine? It did WONDERS for my anxiety dog.

(I do have a dog that peed in her crate Every. Day. for the first several months of her life. She just wasn’t concerned about it at all, and there was nothing medically wrong. We cleaned a lot of crates, and she got very good about baths. She finally stopped at about 6 months–I think it took her that long to figure out not peeing in the crate = not covered in pee! Wow! She is not real bright. So sometimes you do just have to wait them out :-/)[/QUOTE]

Agreed 5mo is old enough to go 3 hours.
Didn’t know about Sterile Cystitis will run that by my vet.
As to anxiety; I find wearing him out with some exercise/training does wonders. The puppy on the video today was not stressed or anxious at all. But I will continue to video him and if I see stressful behavior again (the ex-pen climbing was from a month ago) I can consult the vet about anti-anxiety meds.
wow several months of peeing in a crate would freak me out.

[NRB]

pfftttt. He shredded and possibly ate some of the pee pad after 15 min of being crated in the double crates. Oh well. I guesss I’ll just give him the 2 crates and no pee pad (I remember now that he shredded the newspaper in his ex-pen

[Bicoastal]

Where is the video

I disagree with conditioning pup to eliminate in a crate. That behavior is a huge hassle, as your experiencing! How bout a taller xpen? Or a top? You can fashion one immediately out of a sheet or plywood while waiting for a real one to ship in.

Exercise the snot out of pup before confining. Provide multiple toys and food puzzles so there is something to play with besides an empty kong and newspaper/puppy pad. Provide ice cubes instead of unlimited water. Video the results so we can see :yes:.

[QUOTE=Simkie;6386727]

(I do have a dog that peed in her crate Every. Day. for the first several months of her life. She just wasn’t concerned about it at all, and there was nothing medically wrong… She is not real bright. So sometimes you do just have to wait them out :-/)[/QUOTE]

We had a foster like this. Just did not care. She bounced out of many homes before becoming the full time job of an aspiring trainer.

[Nezzy]

can you find anyone who can take him out for you mid day?

[wendy]

you really, really, really DO NOT want to encourage/cause peeing in a crate. Crates only work as “housebreaking tools” because dogs are born with an instinct to try to keep their nest clean, so they strive to hold their bladders.
Once you “break” that instinct by making them pee in bed and then lie in it, they can become next to impossible to housebreak, because they really don’t care where they pee after that happens. Anywhere, anytime.

Puppy mill/pet store pups that are raised in small cages are basically forced to pee/poop in their cage and then lie in it, and they are notorious for being next to impossible to housebreak.

So if you have a pup (or older dog) who pees even once in a crate that’s a warning sign that what you are doing is not working and you need to change something to keep the dog from ever peeing in the crate again.

Usually if the pup pees in a crate it means the pup isn’t being taken out often enough, or has a UTI.
If there is any chance the pup won’t be able to hold it in the crate until you get back it’s better to do an x-pen with a potty pad at one end or a pup-proofed room with a potty pad at one end, to encourage cleanliness habits in the dog.

I don’t like to leave pups in crates for more than an hour unless I am sure they just going to zonk out and sleep (such as overnight, or in the afternoon after a hard exercise session).
If I have to leave for longer than that I always do the x-pen or proofed room.

You should have a pretty good idea of how long your pup can normally hold it- I always start out with “out every hour” and then gradually extend that time (yes, I actually use a timer with an alarm) as the pup’s bladder control improves. If the dog’s ability to hold it suddenly goes backwards, it’s time to go see the vet.

[NRB]

I am gone 2 hours sometimes 3. So I’ve never used a dog walker unless I’m gone 3 hrs or more (very rare occasions) My dog walker lives 30 min away. I can’t ask her to walk my dog every 2 hours. I am leaving town, dog sitter works a day job. She can not leave her work every 2 hours.

Video, long story short it won’t talk to my computer.

I do exercise the snot out of the dog before he’s crated. Hence the epic 1-2 hour long nap in the video I refrenced above. In the crate he gets a kong and bully stick and toy. He napes for 1-2 hours then wakes up and has to pee.

I totally agree letting him pee in the crate is horrible. Expen is huge. I can look into plywood on top. Zip Ties to keep it there. But everythime he pees in the expen that top will have to come off and the floor cleaned up with enzymatic cleaner. I am leaving him at home with a dog sitter. Flight leaves tomorrow am. Back Sunday. So that means a sitter coming in and cutting off the zip ties, removing the room to clean the pen every time the dog soils it.

I think, but could be wrong, that even a tired well exercised puppy that is napping for an hour to 2 hours will still wake up and shred the papers/pee pad.

[MunchingonHay]

you did not say when his last water intake was, when his last pee was before being crated and at 5 months I was still watching my pup with his water intake, esp. before I crated him. You are giving him a treat while in the pen which is frozen (more water) and peanut butter, which makes you salivate because its sticky.

I say, stop with the frozen treat, last water intake 30 mins prior to being crated, walked then put in crate, walked after being crated, offer water, pee again.

From your description it sounds like he needs to go and does not want to go in the crate. Set him up for success not failure.

ETA stop giving him food in the crate this includes pb kongs, bullie sticks, or anything else ingestion-able.

[NRB]

[QUOTE=wendy;6387492]
you really, really, really DO NOT want to encourage/cause peeing in a crate. [/QUOTE]

Wendy I get this really I do… I’m slamming my head into the wall as we speak.

Urine sample from vet is fine. Stated in my first post. But I will collect a second one just to be sure… I can collect int he am, when it;s more concentrated. The one that I did collect was from after he’d peed in crate…

He shredded/ate the pad I left for him this am in 15 min. I don’t want plastic in his GI system. I am very reluctant to do that again.

The best dog proof room I have IS the dog room. He’s eaten the wooden railing for the little fence thingy (permanate structure that keeps you from falling down the stairs). He also chews the wood molding. I do exercise the snot out of him. I promise. He’s got other chew toys around. And another dog at the time he got to the molding. It is not seperation anxiety that causes him to chew the molding. It’s just mouthy puppy exploring with his mouth and wood tastes good when you are a pup and teething.

I get it that this is a problem, I promise that I am pulling my hair out over this. and exploring all options.

[NRB]

[QUOTE=MunchingonHay;6387535]
you did not say when his last water intake was, when his last pee was before being crated and at 5 months I was still watching my pup with his water intake, esp. before I crated him. You are giving him a treat while in the pen which is frozen (more water) and peanut butter, which makes you salivate because its sticky.

I say, stop with the frozen treat, last water intake 30 mins prior to being crated, walked then put in crate, walked after being crated, offer water, pee again.

From your description it sounds like he needs to go and does not want to go in the crate. Set him up for success not failure.

ETA stop giving him food in the crate this includes pb kongs, bullie sticks, or anything else ingestion-able.[/QUOTE]

thanks. Ok kong is 1 teaspoon frozen peanut butter. And one bully stick.

He is fed at 6am. given water after eating. Water taken up after that. Walked/trained/exercised. Given water then take water up immediatly. then around 10:30 he is crated immediately after peeing outside on leash 2x. He’s in the crate from anywhere from 30 min to 2.5 hours/3 hours. The pee episodes happen infrequently but they happen during the longer 2.5 to 3 hour times.

SO I am stopping the water intake more like 1-2 hours before being crated.

I come home, let out of crate, allow water, outside to pee. Inside and water has been taken up. I do stuff around house. If i go out again I pee him on leash, crate with bully stick and frozen pb kong.

[Simkie]

Well, it wouldn’t be my first choice, but maybe boarding him would be a better option than leaving him at home while you’re gone, at least until this peeing thing is worked out?

[NRB]

I’m going to appologise for sounding frustrated and short. I really do train to set my dog up for success. I actually do all the things that most posters have recomended. They just have side effects that made them less than appealing.

I don’t have a dog walker to let the dog out every 2 hours. I’m a stay at home mom. My schedule is erratic. Sometimes I never know when I will get a chance to go to the barn to see my horse. Those are the 2.5 to 3 hour crating sessions b/c the barn is 30 min away.

I will work on getting more dog walkers to come by and let the guy out every 2 hours.

But I am still leaving town tomorrow am. dog sitter will be here Thurs at lunch to let them out and again when se gets off work at 5. I will call the only other dog sitter I know and see if I can get her down here at 11am and again at 3 to let the critter out. But if I can;t get her then I am sunk

edit WOOT!! my dog sitter called to say she’s happy to come over every 2 hours tomorrow during work, and that she’s got Friday off of work. She understands that the pup can’t go longer than 2 hours and will basicly hang around the house all the time and keep an eye on the fella. I see a Big Tip in this ladys future.

So I will keep up the crating, limit his time int he crate to under 2 hours, keep limiting water… see how that does for us.

[MunchingonHay]

Its OK NRB, we are just trying to get ALL the information so we can assess the little pee’er the best that we can.

[Nezzy]

something is not right. if you are taking him out every few hours, and he’s peeing in the crate. One of my own dogs is prone to UTI’s. He gets Struvite crystals but no bacteria. his urine is more clear than yellow. the only time i know he has a UTI is b/c he is peeing in his crate. My vet does take a sample of urine from his bladder. i am not aware of how she gets it, but it is more accurate than a sample collected. I might ask the vet for a more invasive test or something…

My Dog is on Potassium Citrate to help prevent his. Maybe your vet can let you try this to see if anything improves?

[Simkie]

@Nezzy;6387900

My vet does take a sample of urine from his bladder. i am not aware of how she gets it, but it is more accurate than a sample collected. I might ask the vet for a more invasive test or something…

Big needle!

Video if you’d like to see. Little squicky if you’re not fond of needles, but not terrible.

I think it’s curious that the dog is able to hold it for seven hours while he sleeps, but not for three hours while left during the day. What is different about his pre-bed routine?

NRB, another option until you get this figured out is to put a puppy pad under a grate in his crate. It’s stop gap, of course, because it doesn’t solve the peeing problem, but it at least makes it easier to clean up and keeps him out of it.

[NRB]

[QUOTE=Simkie;6387559]
Well, it wouldn’t be my first choice, but maybe boarding him would be a better option than leaving him at home while you’re gone, at least until this peeing thing is worked out?[/QUOTE]

Ahhh hahahah. This guy is the fearful dog post on this forum. Boarding is so not an option. It would be like flooding him. He’d be a complete wreck. Or miraculously cured. And boarding him would just be him peeing inside a kennel… a larger kennel than my crate.

[NRB]

[QUOTE=Simkie;6387910]
Big needle!

[URL=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrmEQxUh4YA”]

I think it’s curious that the dog is able to hold it for seven hours while he sleeps, but not for three hours while left during the day. What is different about his pre-bed routine?

NRB, another option until you get this figured out is to put a puppy pad under a grate in his crate. It’s stop gap, of course, because it doesn’t solve the peeing problem, but it at least makes it easier to clean up and keeps him out of it.[/QUOTE]

No kidding why go all night long and not more than 2 hrs during the day?

I started taking up the water yesterday. Temps today and tomorrow in the 100’S so I am a little freaked about limiting water. I allow him water after waking up in am, after his am meal. then no water. He’s either with me in the house or in a crate as I run an errand for 30 min or an hour. Then I offer water after a play session, after he’s been outside in the yard (I am limiting time in the yard in this heat) Water before his 5pm meal and after.

Before I finally put 2 and 2 together with this peeing in the crate thing (this week, doh!) I allowed free access to water by keeping water bowls in the dog room, in my bathroom, and outside in the yard. But never water in his crate, and when I’m home he’s tethered to me in my office or dining room or tv… or hes crated if I can’t keep an eye on him so he can;t get water then… So he’s getting water from the dog room, bathroom or outside bowls as we walk past those places during the day and eve. And normally I don’t allow access to water after 9pm. Bed time is 11pm. But I tend to allow a sip late at night 10pm or even 11pm.

I am a clean water freak so I clean out the bowls daily and put in fresh water. He loves fresh water. He liked to sip the water in the communal bowl in the dog room, sip some from the older dogs bowl in her crate and etc. Every time he walked outside he’d hit the bowl by the kitchen door in the dog yard. ANd when he plays inthe yard he hits the bowl on the lower patio. When I bath him (after a crate pee) he tries to drink the water int he tub. He likes water!

The UTI issue is one that I;d like to pursue… havent watched the video link yet. I am abit squeamish about needles in the bladder. Maybe there is some other less invasive test to run?

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=NRB;6387571]
WOOT!! my dog sitter called to say she’s happy to come over every 2 hours tomorrow during work, and that she’s got Friday off of work. She understands that the pup can’t go longer than 2 hours and will basicly hang around the house all the time and keep an eye on the fella. I see a Big Tip in this ladys future. [/QUOTE]

This is great news! Now you can breathe a big sigh of relief and enjoy your getaway.

You are certainly doing everything you can to solve the problem. This too shall pass. :yes:

[NRB]

this has been an interesting debate; On the one hand have been folks who favor letting pup pee in house in a ex-pen VS the other folks who say peeing in the house is going to confuse him so use the crate at shorter intervals to keep him from peeing in the crate and in the house… fwiw peeing in the house a non issue. Peein gin the crate is horrible. At first I thought it was water from his beard getting the crate pad wet. He’s a messy drinker, mroe water on his short little puppy beard than the full grown schnauzers beard.

I will investigate the UTI aspect further when I return. ANd if the dog sitter has any crate pee accidents while I am away I’ll have her leave him loose in the dog room and criss my fingers he doesn’t get wood splinters in his belly.