5mo pup pees in crate, on video; ideas?

[NRB]

Something that I didn’t include before. He has a beard. He is a messy drinker. There are pools of water on the floor leading away from the water bowl. For the longest time I thought that his crate pad was wet from his messy water habits. And the pad didn’t smell. So I took the water out of the crate. Then I took the water out of his ex pen. Then I figured no water in crate and we pad then it must be pee. That’s when I sent out a urine sample. When it came back fine advice I got from trainer was to crate. Stop using ex pen. And to crate for shorter durations.

But sine the pee didn’t smell. I’m really wanting to investigate the s something crystal something UTI problem that’s been mentioned before. But he still never pees at night. He always has a dry bed in the morning

I also set up a 3.5 ft by 12 ft ex Pen with vinyl flooring down over my wood floor. And his crate inside that. So dog sitter has option to ex pen him. He can chew the wood on the patio door. And he can still jump up and get caught on the top of the ex pen. But I now think that those two problems are the least of my concerns. I’m more concerned that he gets comfortable with soiling his crate.

[wendy]

they sell tops for x-pens, wire or tarp; also you can buy things like Bitter Apple to put on wooden items to discourage chewing. They sell indoor potties for dogs that might work better than leaving a pad down.
It sounds like you’re doing all the normal right stuff and yet it’s not working as well as one would hope.
If he’s not peeing overnight I agree the crystals/UTI is less likely. Perhaps you should try changing up his exercise/feeding/crating routine in some way? Think about the routine you’d like to have when the dog is fully trained and work towards that.

as an aside:
Using water restriction to dehydrate a puppy so you don’t have to work quite as hard at housebreaking is really not a good idea. All animals should always have free access to as much potable water as they might want to drink. That’s one of the “biggies” you can get arrested for by AC, not having water available at all times.

[SuckerForHorses]

I didn’t read all the replies, but am thinking out loud here…

He is in his crate from 11 PM to 6 AM and is perfectly fine.
But can’t stay in his crate during the day for more than 3 hours or he will pee in his crate (or will sometimes pee in his crate).

This sounds to me like he can absolutely hold it, and is choosing not to during the day.

[godiva13]

But at night he is sleeping and not awake and playing around and probably does not need to go. All of my puppies have slept thru the night without accidents but had to go out every few hours during the day when they are awake.
Years ago i had an aussie puppy that could sleep thru the night but had to go out every 30 minutes when awake during the day. I took her to the vet to be checked out and they found nothing wrong. She did finally outgrow this and could hold it the normal amount of time during the day. It took till she was around 8 months

[Nezzy]

[QUOTE=Simkie;6387910]
Big needle!

Video if you’d like to see. Little squicky if you’re not fond of needles, but not terrible.

I think it’s curious that the dog is able to hold it for seven hours while he sleeps, but not for three hours while left during the day. What is different about his pre-bed routine?

NRB, another option until you get this figured out is to put a puppy pad under a grate in his crate. It’s stop gap, of course, because it doesn’t solve the peeing problem, but it at least makes it easier to clean up and keeps him out of it.[/QUOTE]

thanks for that video, dog did not cry out or struggle so i am thankful to know what they do with my dog when he needs a sample.

[Nezzy]

[QUOTE=NRB;6389258]
Something that I didn’t include before. He has a beard. He is a messy drinker. There are pools of water on the floor leading away from the water bowl. For the longest time I thought that his crate pad was wet from his messy water habits. And the pad didn’t smell. So I took the water out of the crate. Then I took the water out of his ex pen. Then I figured no water in crate and we pad then it must be pee. That’s when I sent out a urine sample. When it came back fine advice I got from trainer was to crate. Stop using ex pen. And to crate for shorter durations.

But sine the pee didn’t smell. I’m really wanting to investigate the s something crystal something UTI problem that’s been mentioned before. But he still never pees at night. He always has a dry bed in the morning

I also set up a 3.5 ft by 12 ft ex Pen with vinyl flooring down over my wood floor. And his crate inside that. So dog sitter has option to ex pen him. He can chew the wood on the patio door. And he can still jump up and get caught on the top of the ex pen. But I now think that those two problems are the least of my concerns. I’m more concerned that he gets comfortable with soiling his crate.[/QUOTE]

that totally sounds like my UTI dog. his wet bedding does not smell right away. Struvite crystals.

[Kryswyn]

Jack Russells + pee pad = shred city hell.

Got one of the indoor grass ‘patches’ problem solved.

[NRB]

If I tie down a top on the ex pen I have to take the top off every time I go in the pen… Which is multiple times a day.

I totally agree Wendy. The taking up water idea is the trainers not mine. I have free choice water galore in my house normally. Fwiw the breeder has his sister. Keeps her in an expen with papers (and a water bowl) if she has to be gone for 3-4 hrs. She says sometimes there is pee sometimes not. Since she’s a small time breeder she has these tall PVC pipe ex pens with gates. No one can climb or jump out of or tip over. I want one! But I suspect that she made hers… Will inquire. See if I can get one, make one. The downside is that they look pretty permanent. And un- moveable.

The dog sitter said no pee accidents for thurs, fri or today (so far) and she’s been using the crate. Poor woman has probably been at the house playing with the dogs ever since she got off work thurs pm.

I will obviously investigate the UTI idea further when I return to town. The video showed a pup who needed to go, couldn’t wait and peed. And wasn’t happy about peeing in the crate at all. So that gives a strong argument for either never crating for longer than an hour. Or for using the ex pen for periods longer than an hour.

[foggybok]

[QUOTE=godiva13;6391211]
But at night he is sleeping and not awake and playing around and probably does not need to go. All of my puppies have slept thru the night without accidents but had to go out every few hours during the day when they are awake.
Years ago i had an aussie puppy that could sleep thru the night but had to go out every 30 minutes when awake during the day. I took her to the vet to be checked out and they found nothing wrong. She did finally outgrow this and could hold it the normal amount of time during the day. It took till she was around 8 months[/QUOTE]

My most recent BC was like this too. No problem holding it all night, easily 8+ hours, but once up in the day, it was less than every 2 hours and if I wasn’t watching him closely, he’d have an accident… I was taking him out hourly for a long time… Beyond the expected time frame, I think at 5 months he was still that way to some extent… No health issues or UTI, but daytime pee habits were quite different than night…

Eventually grew out of it…

[west5]

I had a cairn terrier that did something similar to this when she was young.

Diagnosed with diabetes around age 2 lived to 14 with twice daily insulin shots.

[NRB]

So do the UTI dogs go all night without an accident or asking to go potty? My assumption was that UTI dogs could not make it through the night.

Also true that the body at rest and immobile can “hold it” alot longer. Movement stimulates the bladder/ bowls. So if the dog is up and moving around in a crate or ex-pen then they are going to need to potty more frequently. So yes, daytime potty habits differ from night time potty habits.

Diabetes, oh freak me out. That eould explain the increased water intake. He drinks more than my 3yo female. But I just figured that he drinks mroe b/c he’s puppy, and male.

[Nezzy]

My UTI guy usually cannot hold it all night and i find his blankets wet, so i have a few sets of blankets i wash. i check every day. if they are wet, i know he has a UTI. he is currently on Baytril for one right now. BUT he can hold it for a few hours. it depends, and i try to make sure he goes pee before he goes in his crate. every night we ask the dogs to go pee before we crate them. When he is doing fine, he can hold it all night with no problems.

[wendy]

My most recent BC was like this too. No problem holding it all night, easily 8+ hours, but once up in the day, it was less than every 2 hours and if I wasn’t watching him closely, he’d have an accident… I was taking him out hourly for a long time… Beyond the expected time frame, I think at 5 months he was still that way to some extent… No health issues or UTI, but daytime pee habits were quite different than night…

Eventually grew out of it…

UTI’s generally they can’t/don’t hold it all night.

Those “this many hours at this age” are averages, it’s very possible many dogs don’t comply with them and require much longer times for their bladder control to develop.

[Riley0522]

Just sharing my experience with my last puppy I raised from 8 weeks on. He would still pee/poop in the crate at times at 5 months old. He finally stopped around 6 months when I had him in a too small crate and he must have peed right when I left and I was gone for 4 hours. Since that day he has never had a mess in the house or crate again and he will be 4 in September.

Your puppy may just be a slow learner like mine was. I would not give him access to an ex-pen or a 2nd crate and give him any sort of option to pee in the house. If he had a UTI, his U/A should not have come up clean.

I would definitely give him more time before doing any sort of invasive testing at the vet.

[NRB]

just an update.

Puppy did really well while we were on vacation being crated for short periods of time (2hrs or under). The dog sitter never used the ex-pen. And again all night in crate with no problem. He was great for about a week when we came home also. Up Until last Friday and the Big Storm that knocked out all of our power.

Friday night I was sick, went to bed at 9pm asked hubby to let him out 11pm before he went to bed himself. Then bad storm came and hubby forgot. Pup peed in crate at night. Hubby discovered at o dark thirty. Let puppy out and took out wet bedding. Puppy charged around yard barking at the new fallen limbs. Back in crate and pees again. (hubbys fault for not letting dog out at 11pm and also for not leashing him when he let him out into the yard AND for not cleaning disinfecting the crate before putting puppy back inside) But we were in the middle of a sleep deprived natural disaster so what can you do…

So after that I re-arrange everything, put crates and ex pen in basement room (cooler there since we got no power and temps in 100’s) and start taking him out at night every 4 hours… no problems. During the day I leave him in ex-pen with crate attached and crate door left open. All is well and no more accidents.

Then on Tuesday after letting him out at 10:30pm the night before and again at 1 am and 4 am I find puppy sitting in pee in ex pen at 6am. Ugh. how does he have to pee at 6am after not having any water from 9pm on???

Clean everything up. and fast fwd to Wed evening. Since he’d walked through the pee in the ex pen on Tuesday am and gotten dirty I decided that he’d need the entire room to stay out of the pee spot. So he was left in the room from 4-6:30pm and when I cam e home I found, soaking wet newspapers (that didn’t smell of pee but were 14 feet away from the water bowl) and liquid all over the floor spread around by both of the dogs (the older one apparently hadn’t been locked in her crate and was out with the puppy) So bath for both dogs and clean the room. No remember I got no power, no lights. By flashlight it appears that the puppy peed on the papers and maybe else where and tracked it all over the floor of the room. There really didn;t appear to be a dry spot in the entire room.

Point that I want to make is that on the sound recordings that I have made while I am out of the house, the puppy clearly indicates that he has to pee (he repeatedly rings the bells on the door knob to be let out to pee) and then he pees in the ex-pen or in the room. the evening he peed in the room he was recorded and he hit that bell a dozen times.

He’s got to go and either can not or will not hold it until I get home.

So clearly our fault for not getting him out on the night of the storm. I am taking him to the vet tomorrow. I really hope that there is a medical reason for all of this. Maybe he’s got diabetes? and has a stronger urge to drink. He drinks more than the adult dog. But also can see the holes in our training ( like Friday nights storm we should have taken him out to potty)

I can’t let him pee in the crate.
I dislike letting him pee and walk through it in his ex pen.
I will try again leaving him loose in the new dog room and crate the older dog and see if he can keep clean!!! and just pee on papers in a corner and not walk through it a million times.
And I’ll take the bell off of the door when I leave him in the room…

He totally gets potty training in the house when we are home. No accidents there. He rings the bell to go outside. He’s really good and doesn’t abuse the bell, he pees every time I let him out after ringing the bell.

He is not freaking out when we leave the house. The storm didn’t appear to upset either dogs.

[Nezzy]

ask your vet to get a sample with a needle so it is accurate and they can find any abnormalities. This is just not normal behavior.

[godiva13]

I would definatly take the bell off the door. When he rings it he might have a conditioned response to want to pee but cant be let out because you are not home.

[Over_the_Hill]

Just a suggestion that might make your life a little easier. . .
Go to Walmart and get a kiddie pool. The hard plastic kind and put his pee papers in there. He will not be traipsing through the wet papers and tearing them up, or they will be contained to the pool and not everywhere else. I taught a litter of nine afghan puppies to use a “sand box” since it was next to impossible to get them all out at the same time. Worked really well. Made life easier.

[NRB]

yup bell is now removed when I leave the house, and put up when I return. And I even put the bell on the ex-pen door when I left him in there as I did house work in the next room… he rang it! had to pee. smart little bugger.

I have a baby pool! Might try that. it might take upthe entire ex pen area though. so will have to remove the expen…not the end of the world.

However, a Snafu…

This eve I left him in ex pen with newspaper when I ran to the store for an hour. Came home to a poop. on the papers. Arrgh! Totally my fault. I should have crated him. So now he’s like cool, I got an indoor potty now… After that I plan on using the crate for periods under 2 hours and ex pen for time periods over… there is no reason for him to poop inside the house. it was normal healthy stool. not loose or diarrhea.

I took him to the vet on Friday, they tried the sample via needle method and he wasn;t having any part of it. So best we could do was blood sample (to ck for diabetes to see if that explains the increased water intake and output) And vet sent me home to monitor his water intake… as in measure out his water and not allow the older dog access to HIs water, and to keep him from drinking fromt he older dogs water bowl… fun

So frustrating b/c he is totally reliable in the house. Where (excluding the ex pen or crate) he hasn’t had a mistake in over 3 months.

On the bright side of things, he didn’t walk through the poop and track it all over the ex-pen like he does the pee…

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=NRB;6425991]
yup bell is now removed when I leave the house, and put up when I return. And I even put the bell on the ex-pen door when I left him in there as I did house work in the next room… he rang it! had to pee. smart little bugger.

I have a baby pool! Might try that. it might take upthe entire ex pen area though. so will have to remove the expen…not the end of the world.

However, a Snafu…

This eve I left him in ex pen with newspaper when I ran to the store for an hour. Came home to a poop. on the papers. Arrgh! Totally my fault. I should have crated him. So now he’s like cool, I got an indoor potty now… After that I plan on using the crate for periods under 2 hours and ex pen for time periods over… there is no reason for him to poop inside the house. it was normal healthy stool. not loose or diarrhea.

I took him to the vet on Friday, they tried the sample via needle method and he wasn;t having any part of it. So best we could do was blood sample (to ck for diabetes to see if that explains the increased water intake and output) And vet sent me home to monitor his water intake… as in measure out his water and not allow the older dog access to HIs water, and to keep him from drinking fromt he older dogs water bowl… fun

So frustrating b/c he is totally reliable in the house. Where (excluding the ex pen or crate) he hasn’t had a mistake in over 3 months.

On the bright side of things, he didn’t walk through the poop and track it all over the ex-pen like he does the pee…[/QUOTE]

just so you know, you are teaching him to be inconsistent. You really really need to decide what your criteria will be and stick to it.