You need to measure water intake, and collect ALL his urine. This will take a full day dedication on your part.
All urine = outs and all water = ins.
Subtract the ins from the outs. Puppies should usually be well on the positive side, moreso than adult dogs. (especially if they are eating wet food)
If he is in the negative (producing more urine than water intake), then you need to investigate further for diabetes insipidus, renal issues etc. UTI’s will not cause a negative number.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6426125]
just so you know, you are teaching him to be inconsistent. You really really need to decide what your criteria will be and stick to it.[/QUOTE]
I know that I keep changing the rules… ie crate and no potty allowed inside vs ex-pen(room) and it’s ok to potty inside the house. I just don’t know what criteria do I pick? Let him potty inside the house in the ex pen OR crate and keep the crate hours short (ie never go to the barn) and teach him that potty inside the house is not part of the house rules.
IS that what you meant threedogpack? by picking criteria? crate vs ex-pen?
If I pick the crate, then there will be times that I don’t make it home in time and he will be in pee. But then again in the ex-pen he’s in pee. In the larger room he’s in pee. Do I just throw up my hands and give up and say "he’s going to pee, he;s going to be covered in pee, so I’ll just crate him??
Well, yeah. You’re damned in you do, damned if you don’t. It sucks, but it’s what it is.
When I had a puppy like this, she was still crated and she was bathed when she was covered in pee. For awhile it was nearly every day. What can you do? She got really good about baths and grew out of it. (Note for anyone who hasn’t seen my earlier posts–she was cleared by the vet.)
Were I to do it again, I’d find a heavy grate that would fit in the bottom of the crate and put a potty pad underneath, at least for a month or so, to have an “emergency” option and give the puppy some time to grow out of it. Sort of pull-ups for puppies 
I know it’s not the BEST thing to teach them that they can pee in their crate and it “goes away” but sometimes you just can’t be there every 2 hours to get them out.
[QUOTE=NRB;6426427]
I know that I keep changing the rules… ie crate and no potty allowed inside vs ex-pen(room) and it’s ok to potty inside the house. [/QUOTE]
yes, this is what I mean.
I’d be doing what Simke said and bathe the dog as often as necessary OR I’d make pottying in the house ok. One or the other.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6426721]
yes, this is what I mean.
I’d be doing what Simke said and bathe the dog as often as necessary OR I’d make pottying in the house ok. One or the other.[/QUOTE]
So 3 dog you would “let” a pup pee in its own crate? Id just had it hammered into my head that soili g the crate was the worst thing ever. I agree choose one or the other stop waffling. Ugh!
As of 7:30 am he’s drank 12 oz of water. Peed 4 times. Pooped once. I admit I am. It measuring how much pee comes out…
your vet could not get a needle sample? WTH? They are the VET. Jeez, they can’t even do a simple procedure? I might look into a different vet.
i don’t think you need to drive yourself crazy with measuring urine, etc… that’s not going to help you much. How can you tell how much your dog pees?
[QUOTE=NRB;6387558]
thanks. Ok kong is 1 teaspoon frozen peanut butter. And one bully stick.
He is fed at 6am. given water after eating. Water taken up after that. Walked/trained/exercised. Given water then take water up immediatly. then around 10:30 he is crated immediately after peeing outside on leash 2x. He’s in the crate from anywhere from 30 min to 2.5 hours/3 hours. The pee episodes happen infrequently but they happen during the longer 2.5 to 3 hour times.
SO I am stopping the water intake more like 1-2 hours before being crated.
I come home, let out of crate, allow water, outside to pee. Inside and water has been taken up. I do stuff around house. If i go out again I pee him on leash, crate with bully stick and frozen pb kong.[/QUOTE]
I vote removing the bully stick, this could be causing some of the reactive problems with acidity in urine from who knows, the way they dried the stick, any other additives, etc. The pup is anxious, that is a given, if he cannot move about he will do this, he needs to develop his urinary tract, bladder etc. and will develop control as he ages. I had a female cattle dog/aussie mix who peed all of the time, it is very clear if they are allowed to sleep in their urine or fecal matter they will become dirty and will do it out of some kind of odd scent/pherome comfort zone of “normalcy”. Hence what the other poster said about puppy mill dogs etc. Julie the aussix mix, did finally get house trained at 7 months, she needed time to develop out of whatever damage was done during her formation in her dam and what the heck they did not do for her nutritionally and management flaws.
I also would not give peanut butter, too salty, the only thing I give a crated dog is a ball hard enough to chew but not destroy and a throughly cleaned/sterilized large unsplinterable knuckle or femur bone. Also play some classical or quiet music to create calm, and make sure the dog is not getting too warm.
I have to add that I gave Julie a lot of exercise and did not let her stay in the house if she made a “mistake”, no big deal about it, just told her she was a nasty dog and made it clear she was to pee and poop outside. Don’t get frantic about the mistakes.
[QUOTE=SquishTheBunny;6426242]
You need to measure water intake, and collect ALL his urine. This will take a full day dedication on your part.
All urine = outs and all water = ins.
Subtract the ins from the outs. Puppies should usually be well on the positive side, moreso than adult dogs. (especially if they are eating wet food)
If he is in the negative (producing more urine than water intake), then you need to investigate further for diabetes insipidus, renal issues etc. UTI’s will not cause a negative number.[/QUOTE]
This is insane for more than one reason.:no:
[QUOTE=Nezzy;6427083]
your vet could not get a needle sample? WTH? They are the VET. Jeez, they can’t even do a simple procedure? I might look into a different vet.
i don’t think you need to drive yourself crazy with measuring urine, etc… that’s not going to help you much. How can you tell how much your dog pees?[/QUOTE]
My vet would not physically pin a struggling frantic dog down to get a sample. After all this is not a life or death situation where she has to get er done. Had he been compliant then she would have gotten a sample. Had this been a more important proceedure she would have tranqued but because he goes all night with no issues his doesnt seem to be a UTI case This Sat he went from 11 pm til 9 am (i wayyy overslept… Not a normal occurance) He was fine dry and not whining in the am.
I think he peed in the crate last Friday because off all the physical activity in moving from one room to the basement during the storm. So normal night time is in. Rate all nite. Not getting relocated to a seperate part of the house.
yes, he’d pee in the crate and live in it for a bit, then he’d be bathed frequently.
Urinating and defecating for me in my house, is a black and white issue that I’m willing to really work on. I had one dog who went to work with me, and she lived in a crate in the back of my car for 3 weeks till she figured it out.
in post #13 you state that you are a stay at home mom with an erratic schedule and that you never know when you’ll get to the barn. The barn would either wait till I got this dog housebroken OR the dog would go with me, wait in the crate while I was there with a potty break in there somewhere.
The dog sitter post#35 had no problem with him and unless she stayed over night, he was probably awake for more than 2 hours in between going to bed and whenever she got there in the morning.
with every suggestion there seems to be a road block, I don’t know why, but you need to decide if the dog is going to have to hold it in the crate and deal with it or something else.
how long have you had this dog?
in addition, I might start setting a timer so that I know how long the least he can hold it is, and increase that by 15 minute increments over the course of a few days.
[QUOTE=Calamber;6427105]
This is insane for more than one reason.:no:[/QUOTE]
actually Clamber, it is not insane, it is how you measure intake and output to determine how an animal is processing their fluids. They do it in people too.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;6427083]
your vet could not get a needle sample? WTH? They are the VET. Jeez, they can’t even do a simple procedure? I might look into a different vet.
i don’t think you need to drive yourself crazy with measuring urine, etc… that’s not going to help you much. How can you tell how much your dog pees?[/QUOTE]
Seriously? This is the BEST diagnostic tool for determining diseases that I had mentioned. Either you do it at home, or you pay a vet clinic to do the exact same thing.
How do you measure urine? Easy, collect it in a margerine container (or bucket) each time the dog pees. Measure with measuring cup that you can get for $1 at the dollar store. Simple. Takes a day of dedication, but will probably save $1000 in diagnostics.
[QUOTE=Calamber;6427105]
This is insane for more than one reason.:no:[/QUOTE]
You cearly dont know veterinary medicine. This is a COMMON procedure which can be done at home to save hundreds. We do this on 50% of the patients in the ICU where it is important to know WHAT is happening to the fluids going into them.
If you think its “insane” then please tell me how else to diagnose inactive kidneys which just so happen to have normal renal values. Thanks.
Please, please, tell me how this diagnostic test is insane. Other than having to spend the day with your dog, I dont understand why this is so crazy.
Peeing all the time = not normal. If its an ABNORMAL volume, dog is sick. If its a normal volume (urinating the same amount as what is being taken in) likely behavioral.
[QUOTE=NRB;6427121]
My vet would not physically pin a struggling frantic dog down to get a sample. After all this is not a life or death situation where she has to get er done. Had he been compliant then she would have gotten a sample. Had this been a more important proceedure she would have tranqued but because he goes all night with no issues his doesnt seem to be a UTI case This Sat he went from 11 pm til 9 am (i wayyy overslept… Not a normal occurance) He was fine dry and not whining in the am.
I think he peed in the crate last Friday because off all the physical activity in moving from one room to the basement during the storm. So normal night time is in. Rate all nite. Not getting relocated to a seperate part of the house.[/QUOTE]
IMO, this IS an emergency. if you can’t figure out why the dog is still peeing in the crate, it is probably a health issue. No dog wants this procedure. That is why vets and techs are trained to do it and to hold them down for it. But your dog, your call.
If a vet stopped every time a dog became agitated or “frantic” then a whole lot of procedures would never occur. Most dogs do not like the vet’s office and aren’t going to walk in, hold up a leg, and say “please draw my blood and when you’re done feel free to express my anal glands.”
I don’t know why your vet isn’t motivated to help you get to the bottom of this. Every day this continues you either reinforce bad behavior or you are allowing a serious health problem to go undiagnosed.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6427162]
actually Clamber, it is not insane, it is how you measure intake and output to determine how an animal is processing their fluids. They do it in people too.[/QUOTE]
It is insane as all of this sounds very obsessive compulsive in this case. As the one poster put it, the erratic schedule and the horror of the dog peeing in the crate, (maybe the children had potty issues?), wreaks of a different problem with the OP than is just a dog who is having trouble getting it. I don’t think the dog is ill and the obsessiveness, instead of looking for nutritionally related health issues (ie the bully stick and peanut butter) which can cause excessive urination because of high salt content. That is where I would look, not at measuring urine for God’s sake. Not saying it may not be warranted but that is like thinking a horse has a broken leg because it will not put the foot down and it is an abscess. A bit overreactive.
Read what I said about the Aussie mix Julie, she came to me dehydrated and supposedly 9 weeks when she was likely 7 weeks. She had trouble with her bladder for the first 5 months that I had her. I did not run off to the vet, I did give her a chance to grow, exercise, get proper nutrition. She did not get to stay in the house, she slept in a crate at night, peeing for a good 6 weeks every night. I washed her towels and washed her when she reeked too much. I repeat she did not say in the house because of it until it got under control and it did at 7 months old.
I am not saying the procedure is insane, or the idea of a disease is insane, or anyone in particular is insane, it is however a little cockamamie though to jump to the vet when that is the kind of thing they are going to do because they do not ask the right questions nor think things through from a nutritional and up to this point in their life management issue. Sometimes they just do not have the right pedagogy, blame the vet school, blame society for being goofy, I don’t know, just look at it from another prospective and take out of the case example I gave you and see if it applies.
your more recent posts it sounds behavioral, not medical. It sounds like he “gets the idea” but isn’t really capable of holding it, or isn’t motivated to even try to hold it.
So work on that- no more “asking to go out”, instead it’s “you will learn to wait until I take you out”. The problem with going out whenever you feel the urge is you never develop the ability to hold it. I never teach my dogs to “ask to go out”, because in my world, dogs have to wait until they are taken out- there is often no one home to ask to go out, so it’s very unfair to the dogs to teach them that behavior in the first place.
So when you can be home, or can get someone else to be home, try the timer method: set a timer. So you take the puppy out at the logical times- am, after meals, at walktimes-and then you also set a timer. Every hour on the hour you take the puppy out. Then you gradually extend the interval between trips out, from 60 minutes to 70 minutes to 90 minutes and so on and so forth over the course of several weeks, which will hopefully encourage his bladder and bowels to learn to hold it for longer and longer times.
Since you do have to continue living your life, I’d suggest that when you do have to leave him, you confine him in a setup with a distinct indoor potty of some kind- the kiddy pool sandbox, or one of the “indoor dog loos” they sell. I’ve done this and never had any trouble “fading out” later use of the indoor dog loo- the dog realizes there is a difference between “regular house” and “indoor dog loo”.
Since he’s willing to go in the crate I’d skip any crating at all, its use is not helping you. Most dogs are HIGHLY motivated to not go in a crate, but yours doesn’t seem to fall into that category. So it’s not a useful tool for you.
I agree with MunchingOnHay.
Puppies are individuals, just like humans. To say “by x months old he should be able to go x hours without peeing” sounds like “he” is a machine of some sort.
Obviously he is NOT able to go as long as you expect him to.
Obviously he needs to be let out more.
Care for the puppy you have, not some nonexistent average dog that other posters have referred to. You must deal with your own individual puppy.
some more info.
this dog pees in the crate 1x every 2 or 3 weeks. On average I’d say it’s more like 1x every 3-4 weeks. This is not an every day, every week occurrence. Therefore it doesn’t scream medical emergency to me.
He does not potty in the house when we are home, he is loose and totally trustworthy. (yes he is supervised) he will ring the bell to go out to potty when loose in the house.
he is probably loose in the house for periods of time longer than 2 hours. I can start setting a timer to be exact and see what the time between potty sessions are. I have also started taking notes when he drinks, how much and when he potties. I haven’t been collecting the urine though. Would be difficult to do when on our walks but I suppose I’d not take him for walks on a day that I was “collecting” He has free choice water when out of the crate and up til 9pm in the evening. And remember he is crated for only 30 min to hour a couple times a day. 2hrs every other day. So I am not heavily restricting water…
I agree with 3dog who states I need to choose a criteria and stick with it.
Not going to the barn is not an option. When I am gone longer than 2 hrs I arrange ahead of time to have hubby come home ot let the puppy out on his lunch-break.
Blood tests come back all in the clear, nothing showing there.
The vet is a behaviorist, +R, and throughly aware of the other fear/reactive and car sickness issues I’ve run across with this puppy. And I did not insist that she needle him. That plus the fact that he pees in the crate 1x every 2 weeks seem to me the reason why this vet didn’t insist on sticking the dog at the office. SHe has asked for a urine sample in the am, first pee of the day to see if he is able to condense the urine (I might have that expression wrong)
After the last episode (during the wind storm/power outage) he had 3 maybe 4 nights where I let him out during the night. But now he’s back to his usual schedule of lasting all night int he crate. no potty breaks at night. his crate is right next to my pillow.
I have videoed and voice recorded him while I am out. He is quiet and sleeps. He is not panicked or appear stressed in any way. The crate doesn’t stress him out. He goes in when the door is open and naps in there on his own free choice.
Wendy I just saw your post. Good points about teaching them to hold it. and about not letting them ask to go out vs learning to wait to go out.
3dog I’ve had him since April 9th he was 11 weeks old. I started him in ex-pen with open crate attached. But at night he was in the crate by my bed. And I’d let him out at regular intervals during the night. Didn’t start closing the crate doors during the day until he was solidly into his 4th month.
Normally I feed the dogs 2x a day once at 6am and then again at 5pm. Always in food toys or kongs. Another thing I;ve tried is on the days that I am going to the barn I feed him 1/4 th his usual amt of kibble for breakfast (in a food toy) that morning, then a few treats on our walk. And save the bulk of his meal to give to him at lunch time when I get back home… Again in theory that I’m not putting a lot of food into his system and then leaving him 3-4 hours later… which is what I was doing… feed at 6am, walk, then crate from 9-11am…
and looking at notes from today it appears that he gets let out every hour to pee so far! wow I had no idea I was letting him out that often! I get in the habit of pee when wake, pee after meal and I’m back home from walking first dog. Pee before I leave to take dd to camp. Pee when I come home. Pee before I head out again… all happen at one hour intervals. This is only notes from one day in the life of… but so far it’s no wonder the little guy has occasional problems with lasting longer than 2 hrs…
the reason I asked how long you’d had him is because one of the dogs I got at 5 months (20 weeks) had been .taught. to hold herself until she was in the house and she was a outside kennel dog so she had no trouble eliminating where she lived.
The day I picked this puppy up, she and her 2 siblings were romping outdoors, we went in to sign over paperwork and all 3 immediately peed and pooped in the house.
They had been outside for over an hour.
I had a *ell of a time house breaking her, as this had been deeply ingrained AND she had moderate SA.
She is the one that went with me to work in a crate in back of my vehicle and I let her out every couple of hours. That was how I finally got her housebroken. Now she will hold it no matter what and is the most reliable (going on cue when asked).
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