5mo pup pees in crate, on video; ideas?

[NRB]

cked the notes (I have no memory) and appears that he peed in crate June 8, 18,19 and 29th (night of the storm and I feel that was totally our fault and could have been avoided)

Peed in ex pen or loose in dog room on July 3,4,6…

Since he’s even pooped in the ex-pen. It feels like the ex-pen encourages him to potty, the crate teaches him not to…

So then I’m like well, frequency of peeing in crate is far lower and less often than ex-pen… and since he makes a mess either way might as well crate him and just clean the crate and the dog instead of the entire room and the dog.

This is the WHY I have been flip flopping. And yes I agree flip flopping is a poor training technique. it’s not right, it’s just the best I could do given the situation. I;ve never had this issue before.

Puppy came from same breeder as my last dog (she’s3 now) and breeder has them in ex-pen with papers down and open crate with bedding. She lets them out into a puppy proof yard when she’s home and can supervise throughout the day. She also has a dog door in dog room for her older dogs to use and come and go when she is home. This pup was the first to learn to use the dog door, and it;s been suggested to me to get a dog door.

But puppies having free reign to the back yard when I am not home (not safe for the pup) makes me uncomfortable to use. He’ll occasionally bark at the neighbors, eat sticks (literally eat them) and do some other things I tend to find unappealing. I like him out in the yard but only when I keep an eye on him. Dog room door goes to a concrete patio, so I can;t fence off a section for him to potty… unless I put in an indoor potty the kind with fake grass…on top of the patio slab… He will pee on the patio… just like in the ex-pen. he;ll pee ont he floor not the papers…

[threedogpack]

several thoughts from your last post, NRB.

take what is useful and leave the rest.

1. I’d still do the concentration test. Can’t hurt and it will teach both you and your dog about fiddling with him when he’s peeing. Training for all sorts of things is not a bad idea

2. puppies learn to go on surfaces and your breeder taught this dog to go on paper. If you decide to continue using the xpen, can you tape paper to the floor? I’m thinking somewhere back you said he shreds them so this might not be a good option.

3. keep plugging away, eventually he’s going to figure it out. If you have not been using a clicker and treats, I’d do that. It made it MUCH more clear for my hard-to-housebreak dog. I think that it took me about 3 weeks but the combination of her living in the back of my Jeep so she could/did not practice the messing in the crate, plus the clicker made the difference.

4. think about and decide what you can tolerate and what the fall out will be for the method you will use. There was no fallout for me, once the dog understood what I wanted from her.

5. think about some anti anxiety meds and speak to your vet about them. They can be short term and even if the dog is not outrageously anxious it may make enough of a diff for him to plug in his wee little brain. I’d try them for about a month to see if you can help the process along.

and last, I do not use punishment often, but I did in the case of my hard to housebreak dog. The dog had both peed and pooped, then spread the mess all over her crate. I pulled her out, took her to the bath, muttering loudly and once in awhile smacking a wall or some other inanimate object, then tied her where she could watch me and proceeded to give the crate pan *ell. That was the last night she fingerpainted in her crate. It was also when I started the crating in the vehicle and the clicker for elimination, so I’m not sure how much it helped (tho it did make ME feel better). Note I did not smack or yell at the dog, but I think the dramatic difference in MY behavior made her take notice of .what. it was that made me so angry. Prior to that she really wasn’t too worried about how I felt.

[Wellspotted]

I think I am just feeling a lot of sympathy for your pup because our two toilets at work have been out of order since last Friday and the boss doesn’t have any repair work planned 'til a week from today. Sure, it is going to be very expensive (pipe to sewer line must be replaced), but meanwhile we haven’t been given a porta-potty and are expected to just “hold it” 'til lunch and then 'til quitting time, I guess. Never mind some of us commute a long way! We have been going to the surrounding businesses who let us use their bathrooms.

So I am feeling sympathy for someone who wakes up from sleeping and, like a lot of us, has to pee. That is pretty common in anyone.

I don’t know how it works for dogs, but one thing I have learned at work the past week–just knowing you can’t makes you have to even more! :eek:

[NRB]

Some thoughts. I’ve seen duct tape in his poop, so I know that he’s eating it when he tore up the vinyl flooring I’d used under his ex-pen at first. So taping down papers IF I went the ex-pen route would not work. Better to leave papers out for him to shred…

pup is clicker trained, but I’ve never clicked a pee. I just treated, patted and praised. I could carry the clicker and see if the clicking helps.

re; the bell training. I do up the criteria with the bell. ie at first with the pup I’d let him out as soon as he hit the bell and threw big party when he pottied outside. Then I slowly transition to getting them to wait before I open the door. So next it’s going from “I see you got to pee, wait one minute” to “I see you got to pee wait 20 min while I get dinner done then I will let you out” … So the bell doesn’t mean instant pee. Admittedly the pup is in the process of learning this. And he’s at the beginning where he’s only waiting a few min before I open the door.

But honastly I think my mistake was assuming that he could go 2 hours when I never trained for 2 hours. If every day was like yesterday then he’s is getting let out every hour. So he’s never been taught to hold it longer…during the day.

I did do pee collection this am, looks pretty concentrated to me! and will drop off later today just to cover bases.

The other thing that thows me is that I think of him as 100% potty triained b/c he’s not had an accident in the house since April when we got him and he was wee puppy. there were only 4 accidents int he house as I was figuring out his schedule. So all of May, June, July accident int he house free, rings a bell and seems good to go. It’s the ex-pen where he potties… or the crate. and remember it;s only occasionally. not consistently. But man in July I’d give him a meal leave him in the ex-pen for 5 min and come back to find pee in the ex-pen. Doesn’t happen if I crate him for 15 min with his meal.

[wendy]

So all of May, June, July accident int he house free, rings a bell and seems good to go

see this? to me this means he’s figured out he is “supposed” to go outside, but since he can just “ring the bell” and go immediately he hasn’t learned the skills required to hold it. So he’s only having “accidents” when he’s put in a situation where he can’t immediately be released to “go”.
That’s actually pretty good, you’re very close to “housebroken”. Just keep working at it and encouraging him to develop those “hold it” skills when you are home- don’t let him ask to go out, longer and longer times between trips outside. Eventually he’ll get it.

[NRB]

Vet called this eve. Dog pee sample from this am was not concentrated. ie he’s not concentrating his pee. Sort of freaks me out, but then I read the “Does your dog Drink like its an Olympic Sport” thread and stopped my freak out. How can he not concentrate his pee AND go all night long with no peeing in the crate, or asking to go potty???

Vet says also that the blood test showed higher levels (not through the roof levels) of E-something… white blood cells that go up with allergies, hyper. something…, intestional parasites, external parasites and lack of cortisol…

Sorry I was on the phone with the vet whilst cooking diner and my 5yo child was being obnoxious/distracting and the puppy was trying to eat a cat hairball…I can call her tomorrow for clarification.

so options are (1) treat for whipworms with panacur for 5 days… she said that whip worms can cause failure to concentrate the urine and wold account for elevated levels of the E-sounting something in the blood. (2) monitor the water and one day try to withold at 7pm onwards and test the am pee. If he can;t concentrate the pee we don’t want to dehydrate him… and (3) test for Addisons Disease. another idea floated was to add a dash of salt to his food…

Of course I’ve gone online and looked up possible reasons for increased thirst and increased pee and started the worrying… could be a form of diabetes…maybe early Addisons… he has no other symptoms of Addisons…

Stepping back from my medical freak out… it could be that he drinks more and pees more because he likes water??? I dunno. I’ve noticed that he clearly does consume more water and produce more pee than the 3 yo female…

[threedogpack]

@NRB;6434385

Vet called this eve. Dog pee sample from this am was not concentrated. ie he’s not concentrating his pee. Sort of freaks me out, but then I read the “Does your dog Drink like its an Olympic Sport” thread and stopped my freak out. How can he not concentrate his pee AND go all night long with no peeing in the crate, or asking to go potty???

Vet says also that the blood test showed higher levels (not through the roof levels) of E-something… white blood cells that go up with allergies, hyper. something…, intestional parasites, external parasites and lack of cortisol…

leucocytes?

NRB, I’m glad that there is physical reason for this, at least now you have some options to go with.

[Simkie]

@NRB;6434385

Vet says also that the blood test showed higher levels (not through the roof levels) of E-something… white blood cells that go up with allergies

Eosinophils?

Glad you at least have a few options and it’s not just “we have no idea! Come back in a month if nothing changes!”

Start with the easy stuff and work down the list. Treating for worms is easy.

[Simbalism]

For my puppy, I did a pen and she promptly climbed out of it. I took it back and got a taller one and then to be sure she couldn’t get out, I put an expandable baby gate on top and zipped tied it to the top. I shaped the pen in a long rectangle and put her bed in one end and a pee pad in the other end. I work nights and my roomate didn’t want to deal with having to get up and do puppy duty early in the am. She couldn’t hold her pee or poop thru the night until she was about 6-7 months. I kept her in the pen at night until she was close to a year old and she was no longer having any “accidents”, then I moved her into an appropriate sized crate for her size. On the weekends when I am home she sleeps in my bedroom(usually on the bed) and I usually have to wake her up to go out in the morning.

[NRB]

I am a horrible speller and I wrote down Encitiphiles… Simkie I think you have it; Eosinophiles…

And I agree starting with easiest thing (less invasive) and work my way though makes most sense. This way I can rule things out as I go. So starts panacur this afternoon…

Water log from today so far shows that from 6 to 8 am he’s consumed 12 plus oz of water. He has not been walked yet, and no real exercise ( just out int he yard a few times) and only got 1/4 cup kibble in a food toy while I walked the other dog… so he hasn’t had his full breakfast yet,… the 3yo female on the other hand has gone for a 2 mile walk, has had her breakfast and has consumed I’d guess 4 oz of water…

Simbalism thanks for your input but going all night isn’t a problem for my puppy. He can last anywhere from 7-9 hrs in crate at night no issues. The only night time accident was when we forgot to take him out b/c of the storm/power loss etc.