A cold day in hell before they take our horses - NYC carriage press conference

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Appsolute;7900224]
^^ there is only one acceptable opinion on the matter when it comes to COTH, and any dissenters in the conversation will be made very unwelcome.

So at this point, these threads are just an echo chamber. There any many with opinions, but they wisely choose not to participate in the discussion any longer.[/QUOTE]

You do realize that we have posters right here that defend PETA and the HSUS every chance they get?

Animal rights extremists or those shilling for them, few as they are, are every place you care to look.

Remember, those groups have millions and plenty of employees that consider the controversies job security.

I think that, once a small part of the horse industry was targeted like carriage horses in NYC, well, millions speak, so their chances are not great.

Animal rights extremists thrive in dividing and conquering, in using the abuse card to brand all as abusers and turn the indifferent public against any they choose as a target.

No different here.

While these battles are deadly for the NYC carriage people, they are warning shots to the rest of us that have animals, we will be next.
We can fight along with them, or we can wonder, when our turn comes, why there is no one left to help us.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Appsolute;7900224]
^^ there is only one acceptable opinion on the matter when it comes to COTH, and any dissenters in the conversation will be made very unwelcome.

So at this point, these threads are just an echo chamber. There any many with opinions, but they wisely choose not to participate in the discussion any longer.[/QUOTE]

You do realize that we have posters right here that defend PETA and the HSUS every chance they get?

Animal rights extremists or those shilling for them, few as they are, are every place you care to look.

Remember, those groups have millions and many employees that consider the controversies job security.

[Dramapony_misty]

Is being a carriage horse the most idyllic life for a horse? No. But then again, neither is the life of a show horse- being shuttled across the country, stabled in unfamiliar settings for a week or two at a time with no opportunity for turnout; or a racehorse- (same reasons as a show horse); nor is being “wild and free” on the range- no healthcare, no footcare, no provided feed, no shelter, no protection from predators.

These horses are well-regulated, well taken care of, and already have loving homes (who might not be able to afford them if the horses didn’t have a pretty cushy job). It’s a shame that this amount of attention from those who are “in it for the horses” can’t be shined on true cases of neglect and abuse.

[Beverley]

[QUOTE=Frostbitten;7900171]
Any guesses as to who is next on their list?[/QUOTE]

Well, go see the ‘my barn got a letter from PETA’ thread. Who will be next depends on where they think they can win, plain and simple. And that’s where the issue of one horse discipline bashing another comes into play in their favor. A show jumper supporting the carriage horse ban, as one example among many that we see on this board. Because the show jumper is blind to the fact that these ‘bans’ have no basis in real animal welfare, and it would be incredibly easy to portray ‘the cruelty of forcing horses to jump.’

But. They haven’t won yet.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7900134]
I think a number of fellow horsemen DO have an opinion on carriage horses, but it doesn’t happen to jibe with the majority of people who post on this subject matter on COTH. If you do a search, people who don’t think horses belong in the middle of a major metropolitan city were promptly shot down, and not in a nice way, either.[/QUOTE]

Well, lets see…

There are a few who do do PETA’s bidding…
And those who have a a strange personal aversion to the industry (and won’t produce a reasonable explanation for what boils down to personal attacks)

Of course, one can be against horses in the city.
But if you are you should not let the bigger picture out of sight.
And that has been the biggest problem for the anti carriage people on this horse related forum.
Kind of like this card carrying PETA member on a bird forum. “I think PETA does great work” yes, she thinks the carriages are krewel…but hey, she keeps bird (I bet she didn’t read the care guideline to birds on the PETA page…)

When Hickstead followed Charlie into the great thereafter, the Anti carriage people were hard on that one as well! They made no secret of it, and still don’t, that the Carriage horses aren’t but the first domino to tumble.
That’s why you find their names like rashes all over the world in legislation banning the uses of horses. In Israel, Romania…Cozumel…all small victories.
Screw the people connected to those horses, let them starve.

no matter how we dislike a discipline, if we let them be chopped away on the grounds of ‘cruelty’ where non exists, every other aspect of what we are doing will be subject to a proposed ban, because, simply put, no other industry can sport this kind of record.
The carriage horses are squeaky clean, as there are 4 or five agencies overlooking them, one being the ASPCA, one of the groups behind the ban proposals, I think they finally gave up their inspection powers, but prior to that, I read, they checked on the hack line on average every other day!
Which other branch of the industry has to deal with that?!
I mean, by now something should have stuck, but no.

these are not pit ponies, nobody gets to see, those horses work in the busy streets of one of the largest cities in the world, billions of eyes on them, and nothing.

This is about taking law abiding citizens livelihood and property!
it does not matter if it’s a coffee shop and a car!

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;7900398]
Well, lets see…

There are a few who do do PETA’s bidding…
And those who have a a strange personal aversion to the industry (and won’t produce a reasonable explanation for what boils down to personal attacks)

Of course, one can be against horses in the city.
But if you are you should not let the bigger picture out of sight.
And that has been the biggest problem for the anti carriage people on this horse related forum.
Kind of like this card carrying PETA member on a bird forum. “I think PETA does great work” yes, she thinks the carriages are krewel…but hey, she keeps bird (I bet she didn’t read the care guideline to birds on the PETA page…)

When Hickstead followed Charlie into the great thereafter, the Anti carriage people were hard on that one as well! They made no secret of it, and still don’t, that the Carriage horses aren’t but the first domino to tumble.
That’s why you find their names like rashes all over the world in legislation banning the uses of horses. In Israel, Romania…Cozumel…all small victories.
Screw the people connected to those horses, let them starve.

no matter how we dislike a discipline, if we let them be chopped away on the grounds of ‘cruelty’ where non exists, every other aspect of what we are doing will be subject to a proposed ban, because, simply put, no other industry can sport this kind of record.
The carriage horses are squeaky clean, as there are 4 or five agencies overlooking them, one being the ASPCA, one of the groups behind the ban proposals, I think they finally gave up their inspection powers, but prior to that, I read, they checked on the hack line on average every other day!
Which other branch of the industry has to deal with that?!
I mean, by now something should have stuck, but no.

these are not pit ponies, nobody gets to see, those horses work in the busy streets of one of the largest cities in the world, billions of eyes on them, and nothing.

This is about taking law abiding citizens livelihood and property!
it does not matter if it’s a coffee shop and a car![/QUOTE]

I am surprised the ACLU is not all over this like a rooster on a June bug.

Where is there a more clear example than here of government over-stretching it’s powers, not by regulating but by banning AND determining what those now can do with their horses?

[kaitsmom]

If you think these kind of regulations won’t affect the individual horse owner then you need to consider this. I have a huge salt water fish tank and I have many kinds of coral. A few years back an environmental movement decided that some types of coral need to be protected and should not be collected from the ocean. OK. Fine. No one wants to harm the environment for the hobby so not much resistance was made. Fast forward to last year and they have now decided that we can no longer cut a coral specimen we own and sell or give away the fragment of those types of coral. Want to know something. …Coral GROWS. When those types of coral grow and crowd the tank they need to be trimmed. Coral is live animals living in a colony and now my only option is to remove those pieces and let them die. That is terrible. Endangered coral species are being forced thrown away because doing anything else is illegal. The first regulations seemed benign and well intended and now they are trying to make me remove endangered species from my tank and throw them away just because some people want to get back at a group of people just because they are mad about the initial harvesting.

Today it is carriage horses in NYC and next it will be another city and then it will be Amish farmers and then trail riders and jumpers and whatever else they decide isn’t what a horse is supposed to do. They aren’t thinking about what happens to the horse when it is no longer useful and earning an income. They will save them from the torture of walking steadily through the city and put them on the fast track to the meat wagon.

[OldNag]

I think the show jumping and hunter/jumper disciplines are fairly safe at the moment. Many politicians and celebs have daughters competing and there’s a lot of money there. The same holds true for the Western disciplines although to a lesser extent.

Now Endurance and weight pulls might be the next targets. There’s not a lot of awareness or participation on the part of the people who have boatloads of money and it’s so mean to make the horsey work that hard…

I want to puke when these celebs go on camera and talk about how mean it is to make the horses pull carriages. WTF are we supposed to do with 100’s of draft horses now out of a job. A good majority of them will end up on someone’s dinner plate at some point as I would assume that a lot of carriage owners couldn’t afford to keep them on the feed bill unless they were earning their keep. So yeah, that’s a much better alternative than having a job…:mad:

[Jeito]

[QUOTE=Appsolute;7900224]
^^ there is only one acceptable opinion on the matter when it comes to COTH, and any dissenters in the conversation will be made very unwelcome[/QUOTE]

Even questions from someone on the fence are verboten So, as someone who doesn’t mindlessly jump on a bandwagon, I say “F-em”

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Jeito;7901040]
Even questions from someone on the fence are verboten So, as someone who doesn’t mindlessly jump on a bandwagon, I say “F-em” ;)[/QUOTE]

Honestly, do you see any sense at all for anyone to be “on the fence”?

I will say to all, it seems kind of thoughtless to have any kind of animal and go bat for animal rights extremists intent on banning any animals in human hands.

There is no earthly reason to shill for those groups, no matter how much PR they put out, no matter how much they pay you.
If you have any animals and agree that is unethical, they are slaves and need liberating from humans, that is a completely absurd position.
About like being jewish and defending Hitler, saying he can’t be so bad, he did xyz that I think shows you he meant well …

There is really no fence to sit on there other than that of ignorance and that is remedied by learning more about what those groups are all about.

We either defend the right of humans to have animals, or agree with animal rights extremists that “one generation and no more domestic animals and none to soon for me”.
Can’t be any more clear than that what their ultimate goal is and yes, that means any animals you may have.

Since this is a horse forum, I expect everyone here agrees that it is ok for humans to have horses to care for and use, is what horse forums are for.

[OneGrayPony]

I think we should go the other way and allow only horse drawn carriages on the streets in NYC. Taxicabs are terrifying deathboxes. Mackinac Island does it and it’s delightful.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Appsolute;7900224]
^^ there is only one acceptable opinion on the matter when it comes to COTH, and any dissenters in the conversation will be made very unwelcome.

So at this point, these threads are just an echo chamber. There any many with opinions, but they wisely choose not to participate in the discussion any longer.[/QUOTE]

How many times can you get beat over the head, right? I don’t think they belong on the streets in NY. In Central Park during times when vehicular traffic is restricted, absolutely fine. But, just like the claims about those who want to remove the horses completely, the advocates are just as extreme. It’s never all or nothing.

I’ve been called out by SheWhoShallNotBeNamed with personal threats as well as the carriage folks.

[Beverley]

On FB this morning:

Think this proposed ban is just about the NYC carriage horses and YOUR horses are safe? Think again…
"“If this ban gets pushed through, anyone who keeps their horses in stalls without access to 12 hours or more of pasture daily, asks them to work in any way could be the next targets,” Ralston said. “The pro-ban websites have already started making noises about the racing industry and show jumping and dressage.”…
Ban opponent Sarah Ralston, VMD, PhD, Dipl. ACVN, of Rutgers…

[Go_Fish]

@Bluey;7901062

Honestly, do you see any sense at all for anyone to be “on the fence”?

I will say to all, it seems kind of thoughtless to have any kind of animal and go bat for animal rights extremists intent on banning any animals in human hands.

Just because a poster is against horses on the streets of NYC does not mean that poster is a supporter of PETA.

[trubandloki]

Are the posters who are against horses on the streets of NYC against all horses on the streets of NYC (and every other city)?

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;7901553]
Are the posters who are against horses on the streets of NYC against all horses on the streets of NYC (and every other city)?[/QUOTE]

You mean for policing? No. I’m fine with the ayrabs or arrabers in Baltimore too…they’re on the side streets, not in the middle of the insanity that is NY traffic.

http://www.eater.com/2014/10/8/6915565/baltimore-arabbers-fruit-vendors

[AliCat]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7901597]
You mean for policing? No. I’m fine with the ayrabs or arrabers in Baltimore too…they’re on the side streets, not in the middle of the insanity that is NY traffic.

http://www.eater.com/2014/10/8/6915565/baltimore-arabbers-fruit-vendors[/QUOTE]
So police horses can go out in the middle of traffic and that’s ok? They are often positioned in the most crowded, congested areas of NYC.

Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to understand your position.

In a perfect world, I would love to see the carriage horses in a stable in the park and operate on their very own path. That is not realistic from what I know, and I just can’t get on board with banning them because they interact with car traffic. So do the bicycle taxis, delivery men on mopeds, and pedestrians everywhere.

[2foals]

Go Fish, I support the carriage horse industry because it seems to me that the movement against the carriage horses is much more related to real estate issues than to any actual horse welfare issues.

I DID listen to what people protesting against the carriage horse industry had to say, and as far as I could tell it was a bunch of nonsense. For example, there were horrified comments about how the horses had metal shoes NAILED onto their feet. The main impression I was left with after hearing their arguments was a sense of wonderment as to how little these people knew about horses and how strange it was for them to be protesting something so vehemently without having bothered to educate themselves about it. For the record, I would not be offended to hear a reasonable argument against having carriage horses from someone with enough knowledge about horses to make sense.

I don’t live anywhere near NYC, but the situation disturbs me because I feel like animal/horse welfare policy should NOT ever be dictated by people who know nothing about animals or horses, OR by people who have the extreme belief that there is no place in this world for working animals such as horses and service dogs.

[AliCat]

I know that people still speed, but it is worth noting that there have been actions taken to try to get motor vehicle traffic moving slower. There had been an increased amount of traffic deaths, so just recently (November 7th) NYC lowered it’s default speed limit to 25mph. Police are making an effort to crack down and enforce it. Hopefully that helps keep everyone a little safer.

[LauraKY]

@AliCat;7901644

So police horses can go out in the middle of traffic and that’s ok? They are often positioned in the most crowded, congested areas of NYC.

Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to understand your position.

Yes, but in much the same way I’m OK with using bomb sniffing dogs. It’s for the public good, not as a tourist draw. Besides one person on a horse is much more nimble in traffic than a carriage pulled by a horse.

In a perfect world, I would love to see the carriage horses in a stable in the park and operate on their very own path.

I would absolutely support this.