A cold day in hell before they take our horses - NYC carriage press conference

[Plainandtall]

well here is the thing- I’ve driven horses commercially for 25 years. 10 years of that was in the downtown section of two different major major cities, and two years were on the busy main street/state highway of a large historic county seat- (And now as of late I mostly work in a very small town) In that time I have had ONE horse injured. Want to know what happened? He stepped on a one inch roofing nail that was standing straight up on it’s head. Because he had shoes with drilltex cleats on, his sole was elevated- the penetration was minimal, and although it bled when the nail was pulled- (and the farrier happened to be already in the city working at our barn that day and he was there to help us within 10 minutes) My horse was not lamed by it and did not develop any abscess or problem from it.

Does anyone else here on this forum have a horse who has been injured by a nail or other object on the ground? …or am I the only one because I worked my horse in the city?

I worked with one horse who was starting to show signs of being past his prime. It took special care to keep weight on him through the winter. He had a couple of episodes of choke. I bought him so he could retire- not too soon, not too late. He retired at the perfect time. He’s 100% sound in his feet and legs without flaw. Years earlier he had literally been missed at an auction and then bought off the killers truck not a minute too soon. The fact that he was a good carriage horse saved his life and gave him many more years. Six years later after retiring, here he is, still at my farm, wearing a blanket to keep him warm in the winter and eating warm soaked mash. There is nothing bad that has come to him from being a carriage horse- only good- and he met me. Am I the only person who has to feed their senior who chokes a soaked mash? am I the only one who blankets to preserve calories? His problems are identical to many aging horses. He was not broken down by the work he did.

Can you tell me, while you worry about the horses in traffic- if a horse who leaves his stable in the morning to pull a carriage in NYC is more or less at risk of being injured than a horse who leaves his barn to go on an all day trail ride or sort some cattle or canter a jump course? CAN YOU?

Just because YOU may be afraid of the combination of a horse and traffic- what practical experience do you have working with a trained urban working horse- that makes you so sure that what he is doing is more dangerous than what you do with your horse?

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7901546]
Just because a poster is against horses on the streets of NYC does not mean that poster is a supporter of PETA.[/QUOTE]

If a poster defends PETA in a thread, as in the PETA one ongoing right now, I assume they are supporting them.
Plus we know already from other discussions who are supporting animal rights extremists.

My question is, why, on a horse site, bring propaganda that aims to eliminate all uses of animals, using the NYC carriage horses as one more stepping stone to it?

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7901755]
If a poster defends PETA in a thread, as in the PETA one ongoing right now, I assume they are supporting them.
Plus we know already from other discussions who are supporting animal rights extremists.

My question is, why, on a horse site, bring propaganda that aims to eliminate all uses of animals, using the NYC carriage horses as one more stepping stone to it?[/QUOTE]

One can defend an organization from an untrue accusation without defending everything that organization does. I even defend Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann from untrue accusations (some of those facebook memes are so ridiculous) and I can’t think of anyone I would be less likely to support.

If you go to the nursemare foals thread, you’ll see I also support the use of nursemares. I also support the TB racing industry as well as many OTTB placement orgs. I’m just a mixed bag and an animal welfare advocate like many of us on this forum. There aren’t many issues that are black and white…lots of shades of gray out there.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7901879]
One can defend an organization from an untrue accusation without defending everything that organization does. I even defend Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann from untrue accusations (some of those facebook memes are so ridiculous) and I can’t think of anyone I would be less likely to support.

If you go to the nursemare foals thread, you’ll see I also support the use of nursemares. I also support the TB racing industry as well as many OTTB placement orgs. I’m just a mixed bag and an animal welfare advocate like many of us on this forum. There aren’t many issues that are black and white…lots of shades of gray out there.[/QUOTE]

You are not seriously saying that someone can defend animal rights extremist organizations, intent on eliminating all uses of animals and turning everyone vegan and not realize that means ALL uses of ALL animals?

Anyway, there is no good reason at all to ban carriage horses as far as what they do or where they do it any more than any other any horse does anywhere else.
The arrogance of some to tell others what they should do or not do because they don’t like whatever they do.
Someone doesn’t like carriage horses, so now pushes for a ban?

I don’t like NASCAR, so I should push for a ban?
I don’t like football, so I should push for a ban?

Where does that make any kind of sense at all?

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7901275]
How many times can you get beat over the head, right? I don’t think they belong on the streets in NY. In Central Park during times when vehicular traffic is restricted, absolutely fine. But, just like the claims about those who want to remove the horses completely, the advocates are just as extreme. It’s never all or nothing.

I’ve been called out by SheWhoShallNotBeNamed with personal threats as well as the carriage folks.[/QUOTE]

Of course there is room for the middle ground. The problem currently is that those proposing the ban are not interested in a middle ground. Several of the pro ban council persons have brought up that as the very reason they oppose it. There is no room with those anti groups for discussion dialog or mediation.

Subsequently knowing that is what the carriage persons have been faced with for years upon years I understand their need for unified solidarity. Our “well I’d prefer to see” is just another back alley the antis will parade around clucking about as proof there are problems that are unsolvable with the horses .

[Plainandtall]

Sticking up for a particular fact does not mean anything else than you aren’t willing to tolerate lies - regardless who it’s about. More often than not- when I make a correction about something that bugs me (for example the meme of Michelle Obama not putting her hand on her heart for the national anthem) … it has NOTHING AT ALL to do with my feelings about Michelle obama- and has a lot more to do with my FB friend being a total moron and passing around some unreasonable untrue propaganda <- that is the part that bothers me and why I speak up.

So- if someone said PETA put a trailer full of cattle on a rocketship and sent them over the moon- I’d call BS on that. Does that mean I’m defending PETA or anything they stand for?

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Plainandtall;7902000]
Sticking up for a particular fact does not mean anything else than you aren’t willing to tolerate lies - regardless who it’s about. More often than not- when I make a correction about something that bugs me (for example the meme of Michelle Obama not putting her hand on her heart for the national anthem) … it has NOTHING AT ALL to do with my feelings about Michelle obama- and has a lot more to do with my FB friend being a total moron and passing around some unreasonable untrue propaganda <- that is the part that bothers me and why I speak up.

So- if someone said PETA put a trailer full of cattle on a rocketship and sent them over the moon- I’d call BS on that. Does that mean I’m defending PETA or anything they stand for?[/QUOTE]

That’s my point exactly.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7901980]
Of course there is room for the middle ground. The problem currently is that those proposing the ban are not interested in a middle ground. Several of the pro ban council persons have brought up that as the very reason they oppose it. There is no room with those anti groups for discussion dialog or mediation.

Subsequently knowing that is what the carriage persons have been faced with for years upon years I understand their need for unified solidarity. Our “well I’d prefer to see” is just another back alley the antis will parade around clucking about as proof there are problems that are unsolvable with the horses .[/QUOTE]

I wish the carriage owners would focus on the real estate angle…which, face it, is the reason that big $$$$ is behind this. They want the stables…it’s really not about the horses. PETA just jumped in because there was money behind it and it makes a good story.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7901955]
You are not seriously saying that someone can defend animal rights extremist organizations, intent on eliminating all uses of animals and turning everyone vegan and not realize that means ALL uses of ALL animals?

Anyway, there is no good reason at all to ban carriage horses as far as what they do or where they do it any more than any other any horse does anywhere else.
The arrogance of some to tell others what they should do or not do because they don’t like whatever they do.
Someone doesn’t like carriage horses, so now pushes for a ban?

I don’t like NASCAR, so I should push for a ban?
I don’t like football, so I should push for a ban?

Where does that make any kind of sense at all?[/QUOTE]

Well you sure twisted around everything I said. Someone claimed that PETA was behind the chlorine gas at a Chicago hotel during a “furrie” convention. I pointed out that the article said no such thing and that a blogger had mentioned the idea as a possibility (with absolutely nothing to back it up but pure conjecture). I don’t see how that’s defending PETA, that’s just correcting misinformation. I think we should all do more of that…calling out bad information and intentional or unintentional misinformation.

[cloudyandcallie]

Hey guys, here’s a quiz:: Guess who on this thread, who is so pro-carriage supporter, tried to get HSUS and ASPCA to help her get a rescue in her state to take better care of a horse which she did not own (and she did not want to take even if the rescue had given it up? ) It was a very contentious thread. With some very misleading statements in it. So a very pro-carriage driver supporter can diss the animal rights people all she wants to, but then she asked 2 of those organizations to help her out??? And complain when another Cother says put the horses in the park and off of the streets? Hypocritical much?

[Plainandtall]

“The anti-horse carriage group NYCLASS will make a “substantial payment” to settle accusations that it violated campaign finance rules in last year’s municipal elections, a lawyer for the group said Wednesday.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/anti-horse-carriage-group-settle-campaign-finance-charge-article-1.2040537

A new piece of the big picture!

[Lady_Eboshi]

"Some folks look for answers
Others look for fights.
Some folks up the treetops,
Just a-lookin’ for their kites . . . " :lol:

And I think we all know who’s who.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7902024]
Well you sure twisted around everything I said. Someone claimed that PETA was behind the chlorine gas at a Chicago hotel during a “furrie” convention. I pointed out that the article said no such thing and that a blogger had mentioned the idea as a possibility (with absolutely nothing to back it up but pure conjecture). I don’t see how that’s defending PETA, that’s just correcting misinformation. I think we should all do more of that…calling out bad information and intentional or unintentional misinformation.[/QUOTE]

Why would anyone, on a horse forum, feel the pressing need to continuously defend animal rights extremists?

All of us heard the same stories, we knew that later the PETA connection was questionable, but no one thought it was necessary to defend PETA there.
I was betting certain posters would do just that and I was right, they never miss a chance to defend those groups, even when it is not necessary to do so.

Why would anyone, on a horse forum, support animal rights extremists groups, intent on eliminating all uses of animals by humans, horses also, is the questions here.

The carriage horses is just one of the battles animal rights extremists are fighting, they are also, per their own admission, working thru the legislature and regulations, have the people in place, to eliminate this and that and here is one example of just that.

They helped elect this person that now is wanting to ban carriage horses in NYC.

Guess that the writing is on the wall, for those that want to see it.
If there is any law or regulation that impacts our uses of animals, thru taxing that use away, thru making impossible regulatory demands, thru outright bans, you will find animal rights extremists behind it.

Not even talking about the question of how the ban intents to disperse the horses, a question of trampling on the ownership rights of the carriage horse owners.

The trouble, carriage owners don’t have the deep pockets and top lawyers, like the circus did, surprising the HSUS, to find all that is wrong there and last the years it would take to win.

[pony4me]

New Yorkers have cell phones and cameras and law enforcement is out and about. Reporting and checking on a bona fide horse welfare problem is easy.

If one were to transport a horse in genuine need (see any COTH neglected horse thread) to Central Park, don’t you think the phones and cameras would go wild as the public reported a problem?

When I was in NYC, the horses looked fine. I can only conclude they are still fine and there is some other reason that the mayor and NYCLASS want them gone.

[cloudyandcallie]

My answer and question to bluey;: Why would any one who believes in slaughter want to be on a horse board? There are varying degrees of animal rights activists, as there are people on the other side who love horses but have no problem shipping off of big trucks to slaughter rather than paying for Euthing and then burying the dead.

It’s all a matter of degree. Being far right or far left on any topic, animal or political, makes one an extremist. As I’ve often said, if there had been no Eldridge Cleaver and the other Black Panthers (and yes I met them in Berkeley in the 60s), no one would have listened to MLKIng Jr. (and yes, I met him and marched with him). I believe that there can be a middle ground on most issues. However, if you look at the original carriage horse thread from a year or two agoi, you’ll see that the carriage drivers ridiculed my idea of having the horses in the park.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;7902160]
My answer and question to bluey;: Why would any one who believes in slaughter want to be on a horse board? There are varying degrees of animal rights activists, as there are people on the other side who love horses but have no problem shipping off of big trucks to slaughter rather than paying for Euthing and then burying the dead.

It’s all a matter of degree. Being far right or far left on any topic, animal or political, makes one an extremist. As I’ve often said, if there had been no Eldridge Cleaver and the other Black Panthers (and yes I met them in Berkeley in the 60s), no one would have listened to MLKIng Jr. (and yes, I met him and marched with him). I believe that there can be a middle ground on most issues. However, if you look at the original carriage horse thread from a year or two agoi, you’ll see that the carriage drivers ridiculed my idea of having the horses in the park.[/QUOTE]

Why bringing slaughter now into this, not enough traction for animal rights extremists with carriage horses, lets try to dig some other to help them?

[jetsmom]

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;7902160]
My answer and question to bluey;: Why would any one who believes in slaughter want to be on a horse board? There are varying degrees of animal rights activists, as there are people on the other side who love horses but have no problem shipping off of big trucks to slaughter rather than paying for Euthing and then burying the dead.

It’s all a matter of degree. Being far right or far left on any topic, animal or political, makes one an extremist. As I’ve often said, if there had been no Eldridge Cleaver and the other Black Panthers (and yes I met them in Berkeley in the 60s), no one would have listened to MLKIng Jr. (and yes, I met him and marched with him). I believe that there can be a middle ground on most issues. However, if you look at the original carriage horse thread from a year or two agoi, you’ll see that the carriage drivers ridiculed my idea of having the horses in the park.[/QUOTE]

Good post.

[roseymare]

Wasn’t the drivers issues with park only that they felt there was no benefit in compromise because they had already tried compromise on other issues and it got them no where or even worse with the anti folks?

[flashwhitelock]

[QUOTE=roseymare;7902255]
Wasn’t the drivers issues with park only that they felt there was no benefit in compromise because they had already tried compromise on other issues and it got them no where or even worse with the anti folks?[/QUOTE]

There is no “middle ground.” Any change is downwards not upwards for the horse and carriage folks. Why should they compromise when they have already done so. They are now at a disadvantage to the pedicabs. so their backs are to the wall.

[Jeito]

Excellent posts, cloudyandcallie. Ha-ha, if I stay away from the internet long enough, someone will say it better than I could. I’ll just add that the slippery slope arguments just make me giggle.