Here is an article I wrote that will be published in the next issue of Horse International. It discusses thoroughbred stallions in the breeding of sport horses.
Thanks to members of this forum who suggested TB stallions for me to consider for the article.
http://www.morningside-stud.com/A_CRITICAL_SHORTAGE_OF_BLOOD.pdf
Lauries Crusador is no longer alive.
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2013/10/22/lauries-crusador-xx-euthanized
Adesheidsdorf = Adelheidsdorf (under Fragonard)
Good article.
Thanks.
Excellent article and analysis, Tom. Thanks for that. Meredith
Thanks, Meredith.
It is a good article. However, I do not think the devastating falls and injuries on XC in modern eventing can be entirely attributed to loss of traits offered by the TB alone. Training of the eventing horse has changed dramatically since the 1980s. There is an interesting article by Jim Wofford floating around the Internet which delves into the changes in training - such as the loss of self initiative and self-carriage - that results from increasing demands, specifically increasing collection required, in the dressage component of upper level eventing. Kim Walnes, a Olympic level eventer from the 1980s known for her spectacular relationship with The Grey Goose, has also weighed in on the matter and concurs. So it seems a change in breeding approach, but also a change in training in the dressage phase that is at odds with a true XC horse are contributing to the lack of self-preservation.
I freaked out when I first saw the title, thinking there had been some major health disaster. then I realized I was still in the breeding forum.
I’m looking forward to reading the article know that I have some idea what it is actually about.
[QUOTE=knowthatifly;8072716]
It is a good article. However, I do not think the devastating falls and injuries on XC in modern eventing can be entirely attributed to loss of traits offered by the TB alone. Training of the eventing horse has changed dramatically since the 1980s. There is an interesting article by Jim Wofford floating around the Internet which delves into the changes in training - such as the loss of self initiative and self-carriage - that results from increasing demands, specifically increasing collection required, in the dressage component of upper level eventing. Kim Walnes, a Olympic level eventer from the 1980s known for her spectacular relationship with The Grey Goose, has also weighed in on the matter and concurs. So it seems a change in breeding approach, but also a change in training in the dressage phase that is at odds with a true XC horse are contributing to the lack of self-preservation.[/QUOTE]
IMO the falls on crosscountry have been due both to lack of blood and design of crosscountry courses. For a little while the crosscountry courses were built like stadium courses, with disastrous results. The courses were meant to be advantageous for warmbloods but that backfired tremendously.
I know some people think too much dressage training can take away a horse’s initiative, but I think it depends on the horse. Matt Ryan did a lot of upper level training to improve Kibah Tic Toc’s collection at the canter and that didn’t hurt his horse’s initiative. And let’s face it, there is an inverse relationship between initiative/ ability to think independently and precise rideability. Lucinda Green has expressed concern about breeding horses that bend so much to the rider’s will that they can’t think for themselves. Dressage can effect these traits but I think breeding has a bigger effect on these traits than dressage training does.
I would call the deaths and falls in eventing a critical shortage of safe fences and riders who actually care about horses.
Any sport that regularly is the direct cause of death of a lot of horses should be forced to change. Yes, I put racing right up there with eventing.
It isn’t a bicycle, it is a living, breathing animal.
Only had a chance to skim read but will read and digest when I have time. A couple of horses on your short list of TB stallions caught my attention. Nobre being one. I bought and sold Gem Master to Argentina when he finished racing. I remember him being a very good looking horse, correct, full body, pleasing head, with a well-made hind end and nice disposition. Given Nobre’s family top and bottom its not surprising that he has gathered respect as sport horse sire. I have seen, had “my hands” on many of the horses going back 4 generations. The family should produce the “type”.
Fragonard who’s top line I know well again not surprising the gets the “type”. I came close to buying his dam sire Acatenango as agent when he came off the racecourse to stand in KY. A beautiful horse who recently died. He went on to be a champion sire in Germany as was his daddy.
Sea Lion’s sire Sea Salute was bred by the late great Paul Mellon, Rokeby Stables in Virginia a major patron of the turf for many, many years. I have a Pulpit mare that is out of a half-sister to Sea Salute’s momma Glowing Honor who is by Seattle Slew, the sire of my mare’s daddy Pulpit. My mare never raced, we have had some luck with what we have bred on the racecourse but we have several that are jumping fools. Lovely hoses by and large. I have a 5 year old that is drop dead gorgeous. I was offered $25,000 for him as a long yearling by my cheap ass well known H/J trainer. Sea Lion’s dam sire Caveat won the Belmont Stakes in the mid 80s, a 1 ½ mile race plenty of stamina there which he passed on. I know his owner for years. And saw many of his get. Another one that should get the “type”.
I could talk a bit about a few of the families you have listed. At least as far the horses, types, and their produce.
I only work with and breed TBs, mainly for flat racing. But my personal training and riding is for Steeplechase racing. Specifically Timber racing, which is uniquely “American”. 3-4 miles races over medium to high fences stoutly built. 18 to 22 in a race. You go over or you go down.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8072809]
I freaked out when I first saw the title, thinking there had been some major health disaster. then I realized I was still in the breeding forum.
I’m looking forward to reading the article know that I have some idea what it is actually about.[/QUOTE]
LOL, I thought the same
When I first saw this topic it was on the Eventing forum, and I thought, WOW, I know they had troubles but…
Then I realized what it was about.
And I posted there that we have recently gelded Cougar Trail, our 5/8 TB son of Jaguar Mail (3/4 TB) as there has been scant interest in him as a stallion, blood or no blood.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=8pTfXl&d=cougar+Trail&x=0&y=0
(He’s a super looking performance prospect, and developing beautifully).
All I breed is blood (TBs and Anglos), but for hunters and dressage.
I really don’t think breeders should be responsible for creating horses that are capable of making it around a cross country course alive. That is at minimum a 7 year project. The flaw is obviously in the design.
[QUOTE=gumtree;8074824]
Only had a chance to skim read but will read and digest when I have time. A couple of horses on your short list of TB stallions caught my attention. Nobre being one. I bought and sold Gem Master to Argentina when he finished racing. I remember him being a very good looking horse, correct, full body, pleasing head, with a well-made hind end and nice disposition. Given Nobre’s family top and bottom its not surprising that he has gathered respect as sport horse sire. I have seen, had “my hands” on many of the horses going back 4 generations. The family should produce the “type”.
Fragonard who’s top line I know well again not surprising the gets the “type”. I came close to buying his dam sire Acatenango as agent when he came off the racecourse to stand in KY. A beautiful horse who recently died. He went on to be a champion sire in Germany as was his daddy.
Sea Lion’s sire Sea Salute was bred by the late great Paul Mellon, Rokeby Stables in Virginia a major patron of the turf for many, many years. I have a Pulpit mare that is out of a half-sister to Sea Salute’s momma Glowing Honor who is by Seattle Slew, the sire of my mare’s daddy Pulpit. My mare never raced, we have had some luck with what we have bred on the racecourse but we have several that are jumping fools. Lovely hoses by and large. I have a 5 year old that is drop dead gorgeous. I was offered $25,000 for him as a long yearling by my cheap ass well known H/J trainer. Sea Lion’s dam sire Caveat won the Belmont Stakes in the mid 80s, a 1 ½ mile race plenty of stamina there which he passed on. I know his owner for years. And saw many of his get. Another one that should get the “type”.
I could talk a bit about a few of the families you have listed. At least as far the horses, types, and their produce.
I only work with and breed TBs, mainly for flat racing. But my personal training and riding is for Steeplechase racing. Specifically Timber racing, which is uniquely “American”. 3-4 miles races over medium to high fences stoutly built. 18 to 22 in a race. You go over or you go down.[/QUOTE]
Do you know of TB stallions who would be good for sport and with a reasonable stud fee for it?
[QUOTE=Laurierace;8078423]
I really don’t think breeders should be responsible for creating horses that are capable of making it around a cross country course alive. That is at minimum a 7 year project. The flaw is obviously in the design.[/QUOTE]
Agree about flaws in design but the nature of the horses in eventing has changed since the long format was dropped.
Is the short format actually any safer for the horses? I guess that’s a question to be brought up in the eventing forum. There’s already a thread concerning Tom’s article: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?463170-Lack-of-Blood-causing-Safety-Issue-in-Eventing.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8078581]
Agree about flaws in design but the nature of the horses in eventing has changed since the long format was dropped.
Is the short format actually any safer for the horses? I guess that’s a question to be brought up in the eventing forum though. http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?463170-Lack-of-Blood-causing-Safety-Issue-in-Eventing[/QUOTE]
I thought what happened was that TB used to dominate eventing, then WB’s came on the scene and courses were changed to suit them. That is, the long format was dropped to accommodate horses who didn’t have the stamina to do that.
Then courses became more technical because how to you increase the difficulty if bringing the long format back wouldn’t suit the WB types?
are the falls happening because the courses are simply too technical or because the horses are too tired to jump them properly?
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8078606]
I thought what happened was that TB used to dominate eventing, then WB’s came on the scene and courses were changed to suit them. That is, the long format was dropped to accommodate horses who didn’t have the stamina to do that.
Then courses became more technical because how to you increase the difficulty if bringing the long format back wouldn’t suit the WB types?
are the falls happening because the courses are simply too technical or because the horses are too tired to jump them properly?[/QUOTE]
That’s what I thought too.
There was a spate of accidents when crosscountry was basically like a solid stadium course so the courses were changed back to less technical questions again.
The long format was changed by eliminating the steeplechase and roads and tracks to prevent eventing (and eventually, perhaps, dressage and showjumping) from being dropped from the 2004 Olympics.
Rather than ring-fencing these changes to Olympic competitions the FEI allowed the change to become a generalized change. I believe this was a mistake: It was a mistake to let a once-every-four-years competition, which is not even a 4* event, fundamentally change the sport.
The change did not take place because of warmbloods; it took place because of the cost of creating facilities and the lack of a reasonable return on the investment in most countries where eventing is not a popular sport. If the change did not happen eventing would not be an Olympic sport today.
Please read the article. The issue of falls is mentioned twice in the article, and my language carefully avoids making a definitive causal claim. The fundamental point of the article is the sharp reduction in the use of TB stallions, the impact this is having on eventing breeding and sport, and the likely impact it will have on showjumping and dressage breeding.
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