A message to the Halt Police of COTH

The disagreement is not over the halt, per se. You fail to understand the point of the arguments.

The point is that the inability to satisfactorily halt is indicative of a much bigger problem, namely, tension.

Not everyone agrees that the the rest of the ride is “brilliant” so who cares if the halt is flunked. (This is really sending the WRONG message, especially to our young riders. Who cares about basics? As long as you can force the horse to move real big and pretty, that’s all that matters. This is what a lot of young riders believe because of her!)

Some of us see a horse that is extraordinarily tense as well as BTV throughout the test, and the non-halts are just icing on the training cake.

I won’t lie or dance around it. I don’t like Anky. I think her riding is ugly and her horses look cranked into submission just under the point of exploding. The impression I get of what riding Salinero must be like is that you better know how to brace yourself like you’re holding on for dear life and keep a constant death grip on his mouth to box him together.

I’m not saying “I could do better” or that she is “evil” or other such nonsense. I just wish that she be appropriately marked down for the tension and overflexion throughout the tests and another more correct pair be marked higher. Dressage is not Saddleseat. It’s supposed to be about correctness and creating a harmonious riding horse, not how “flashy” it can be. If flashy knee action is what is important to you, don’t bother with the complexities of dressage… buy yourself a Saddlebred and have fun.

If her style of riding is what is deemed “best”, then I suppose I choose not to believe that competition dressage is the ultimate test of the “art” of dressage anymore. I would much prefer to see a pair that is harmonious, a horse who looks relaxed and happy. Reiner Klimke is still my gold standard. He trained sympathetically and rode with softness. That is the kind of riding I strive for. I would NEVER choose to train by cranking, pulling, and tension to the point of not being able to stand still for 2 seconds just because “it’s what wins”. Just because it wins doesn’t make it RIGHT.

You know this is an important point. I’ve actually had a student marked down in a test for failing to come to an ‘immobile halt before saluting’. I’ve scribed for judges that have directed me to comment to this on a test and scored accordingly. If the little people out there in dressageland can take a hit then I certainly think that someone who won a gold medal should be able to do so. The halt and salute weren’t performed. That is a proven fact.

[QUOTE=high hat;3460594]
You know this is an important point. I’ve actually had a student marked down in a test for failing to come to an ‘immobile halt before saluting’. I’ve scribed for judges that have directed me to comment to this on a test and scored accordingly. If the little people out there in dressageland can take a hit then I certainly think that someone who won a gold medal should be able to do so. The halt and salute weren’t performed. That is a proven fact.[/QUOTE]
AND she was marked down for it, just like the test you scribed for.

She doesn’t halt because she learned a long time ago that it made very little difference in her scores.

'taint rocket science :wink: She’s there to win, not to impress the peanut gallery.

I was telling a friend earlier that I think Salinero always looks tense and swishy and ready to explode. But, that has been the method to Anky’s madness, she’s figured out how to control him and still take advantage of his tremendous energy, and she’s winning. Why would she change? Don’t fix what ain’t broke!

I happen to agree with you about the halt thing ;). While Salinero was a bit frenetic in the early parts of the competition…unlike the others, his extraordinary high energy level translated into a marvelous kur. While all the others were showing some degree of fatigue by the final test, Salinaro still had gas in the tank. Makes for some difficult early rides, but works in the long run. Halt…ya whatever.

[QUOTE=whitewolfe001;3460495]
The disagreement is not over the halt, per se. You fail to understand the point of the arguments.

The point is that the inability to satisfactorily halt is indicative of a much bigger problem, namely, tension.

.[/QUOTE]

I agree with many of your points listed in your post. However you must understand that so far- unless new and better horses are bred- the horses that are now able to perform solid GP are at best 9 or 10 yrs old. These horses still don’t have all the latest awesome improvements ‘built in’…so you actually need to ‘train’ the brilliance into the horse.
The dream of classical dressage does not sell on the international competitive scene and I think we have many times discussed this ad infinitum. Our eyes have become too well trained and are significantly disturbed by a little bobble here and there…not enough energy in transitions is a huge one.
So- if you ride- which I hope you do- and you need to push down the gas pedal and there is no-go…then you have a problem…and that is something that was the root of Sjef’s training and I believe he has attacked the problem at the right end- but like I said- the quality of horses was not quite at the level that he was training at. SOOOO- that’s why we have Anky- who has managed to bridge the gap=riding very very very extremely precise, intuitive and soft- so not to repel the forward in the horse. Then you of course can have a halt problem- and honestly - I don’t know if that is rooted in the training method or simply the ueber-hotness of the horse. Given that the horse had to travel far, live in airconditioned surroundings (that is simply unheard of in Europe or the US) and listen to mostly very strange sounds…I would assume he is a bit hotter than usual (I am referring to the chinese language that can sound rather disturbing over loud speakers to someone not used to it…) I can clearly remember some very nice HALTS from Anky and Sal prior to this competition - earlier in the year in Europe.

So there…just chill folks- it’s part of the deal…Sal had an amazing freestyle…let it rest already and acknowledge that he did a GREAT JOB!.

yup!

[QUOTE=Sabine;3460670]

… Anky- who has managed to bridge the gap=riding very very very extremely precise, intuitive and soft- so not to repel the forward in the horse. …[/QUOTE]

Are you being serious? Have you seen her riding in a chair seat, leaning way back, cranking the horse in with the reins and curb, and digging her spurs in every stride? I’ve seen videos of her riding this way continuously for the entire ride. And even though she doesn’t ride to this extreme in the show ring, she is still WAY more forceful than many other top riders, IMO.

Yes, she is extremely talented. I just wish that her talents were put to better use than they currently are (riding and promoting a very forceful, harsh, and harmful to the horse method of training).

And the fact that she is winning only illustrates the deep flaws within competitive dressage these days, esp. at the highest levels. I think the reason is exactly what you said, that classical riding doesn’t “sell”, and focusing on non-horsey, uneducated audiences means that judging has changed to penalize any visible “bobble” (as you put it), rather than penalizing riders according to the rules like they are supposed to (such as lack of purity of the canter in the pirouettes, failure to lengthen the frame in extensions, or behind the vertical in piaffe, to name a few examples).

This is a HUGE problem, IMHO, and this Olympics only confirms this trend.:mad:

Uh, bobbles are not penalized, unless… what did Isabell Werth get, 76? is a bad score. Her horse had a hissy fit right in the middle!

But on the other hand, even my non-horsey hubby could recognize the lack of energy and vibrance of Mythilus, so there has to be some happy medium. Ravel looked good to me :wink:

Yes, “bobbles” aren’t supposed to be penalized unless they disrupt the movement in a way that violates the rules, but they can also lower the submission score (I thought). Wasn’t SPs score for his one-tempis docked because of Ravel’s tiny kick, even though it didn’t alter the movement in any other way? (Or was that just a BB rumor?)

I think the problem is judges slamming one competitor and then letting it slide for another (Anky’s failure to halt, for example)?

And I’ve personally seen judges lower a score for a horse momentarily coming above the bit (as a “bobble”), but routinely ignoring btv even when it is throughout the test. And witness Olympic horses routinely btv in piaffe (and other movements), being completely ignored by the judges (even though it is against the rules).

Well I suppose none of her horses halt because she and her Rolkur trainer husband have decided for the ENTIRE Dressage community that this is not necessary. Their arrogance is distasteful. I watched her rides at the WEG’S in Aachen and still can’t understand why these judges mark her so much higher. The horses she rides are NEVER RELAXED. Their eyes are always showing stress and it’s just not pleasant to watch.

I think the rules should be changed that if a rider DOES NOT complete 2 movements in the test they should be eliminated. What a snot that she just doesn’t halt or salute. She says she’s retiring from competition - we shall see if that’s true.

I have to wonder where FEI Dressage is going with the debacles in the judging at these highest competitions.

Sorry but have to correct this misinformation again, Anky’s other horses DO halt, go get yourself an education and watch some of their tests, some are on you tube, horses are Bonfire, Painted Black, Krack C, Nelson, they all halt. SO you are just wrong, wrong, wrong. Why don’t people do their research before they make such scathing comments.

BTW, you couldn’t meet a woman less arrogant than Anky.

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;3460791]
She says she’s retiring from competition - we shall see if that’s true.[/QUOTE]

Not retiring yet. She is apparently planning to make a run for gold at the 2009 European Championships and the 2010 WEG in Kentucky. Also maybe the London Olympics in 2012 if someone gives her a brilliant new horse.

[QUOTE=whitewolfe001;3460495]
The disagreement is not over the halt, per se. You fail to understand the point of the arguments.

The point is that the inability to satisfactorily halt is indicative of a much bigger problem, namely, tension.

Not everyone agrees that the the rest of the ride is “brilliant” so who cares if the halt is flunked. (This is really sending the WRONG message, especially to our young riders. Who cares about basics? As long as you can force the horse to move real big and pretty, that’s all that matters. This is what a lot of young riders believe because of her!)

Some of us see a horse that is extraordinarily tense as well as BTV throughout the test, and the non-halts are just icing on the training cake.

I won’t lie or dance around it. I don’t like Anky. I think her riding is ugly and her horses look cranked into submission just under the point of exploding. The impression I get of what riding Salinero must be like is that you better know how to brace yourself like you’re holding on for dear life and keep a constant death grip on his mouth to box him together.

I’m not saying “I could do better” or that she is “evil” or other such nonsense. I just wish that she be appropriately marked down for the tension and overflexion throughout the tests and another more correct pair be marked higher. Dressage is not Saddleseat. It’s supposed to be about correctness and creating a harmonious riding horse, not how “flashy” it can be. If flashy knee action is what is important to you, don’t bother with the complexities of dressage… buy yourself a Saddlebred and have fun.

If her style of riding is what is deemed “best”, then I suppose I choose not to believe that competition dressage is the ultimate test of the “art” of dressage anymore. I would much prefer to see a pair that is harmonious, a horse who looks relaxed and happy. Reiner Klimke is still my gold standard. He trained sympathetically and rode with softness. That is the kind of riding I strive for. I would NEVER choose to train by cranking, pulling, and tension to the point of not being able to stand still for 2 seconds just because “it’s what wins”. Just because it wins doesn’t make it RIGHT.[/QUOTE]

Ditto!!

View from the peanut gallery;

Olympics: Ballroom dancing for horses is so out of step

David Mitchell The Guardian,
Saturday August 16 2008

I’ve just been watching coverage of the Olympic dressage and I must say I’m absolutely baffled. In case you haven’t seen it, let me explain what happens: people dressed in a sort of funereal version of fox-hunting gear take it in turns to go into a large sandy arena riding horses that seem to have been driven mad. The horses behave like the deranged dancing bears in those charity adverts, doing weird fidgety fastidious things that clearly aren’t natural to them: they hop from foot to foot, they walk on the spot, they stand still for a bit, quivering, before turning round in awkward timorous circles and walking diagonally across the arena.
Quite what treatment these creatures have been put through to get them to be this odd I dread to think, but it gets stranger: sometimes the horse and rider’s obsessive antics are condemned by the commentators and judges as disappointing and sloppy, while behaviour no more or less insane is hailed as excellent and just the thing, and indeed quite the spectacle to behold.
I wonder if any of these people saw the opening ceremony? For their sakes I hope not; if they find watching a horse getting the shakes in a sand-pit spectacular, the sight of those fireworks would have exploded their minds.
Now I know there must be rules to dressage. It’s not really just craziness arbitrarily scored, like a sort of tortured horse version of Mornington Crescent, but the fact that brilliance and incompetence are indistinguishable to all but the dressage cognoscenti does not speak well of the sport.
I couldn’t watch it for long without the question “Why is doing this in any way good?” springing to mind. I’m perfectly willing to admit that it must be very difficult to make horses do that, but what’s the point?
Obviously I’m straying into dangerous territory asking what’s the point of a sport - you can argue that almost any leisure activity is pointless, but most sports involve at least something accomplished or exciting enough to make it clear why the activity is pursued. But with dressage, I’m not sure. I completely understand why it’s good to make horses run fast or jump over things - but what is the satisfaction in this tuneless dance, this effortful yet unentertaining capering about?
I must admit that my feelings against dressage are intensified by the fact that it’s one of the sports that is scored by judges. I don’t like that. I accept that some sort of judging is involved in all Olympic events - whether it’s a referee in a hockey match or a line judge in the tennis - but the judging involved in gymnastics, diving and dressage is on a completely different level. They’re not just deciding whether or not a goal has been scored, but what a goal actually is. The spectre of artistic impression hangs over them all in a way that makes me suspect that, skilful and worthwhile though gymnastics and diving may be, they should be put in the same category as dancing rather than the shot put: they’re not, essentially, proper sports.
A proper sport has a clearly defined aim: “Get to that line first”, “Throw that object the furthest”, “Kick that round thing into that gap more times than them”. It doesn’t matter how inelegantly these things are done, the winner is clear; indeed, as sports develop, what is effective in the achievement of the stated aim is what comes to look elegant.
Sports that involve a judging panel have much fuzzier aims - a combination of electing to do difficult things while not being seen to have made any mistakes - and so you need several people’s opinions to determine the extent to which the competitor has succeeded. If such subjectivity is permissible in determining victory or defeat, then why not open up the Olympics to ballroom dancing (after all, ice dancing is in the Winter Olympics), flower arranging or amateur dramatics? You might say that not all of those activities require peak physical fitness, but then neither do archery or shooting.
The distinction between proper and judged sports is at its clearest when you compare ski jumping in the Winter Olympics with the long jump. In ski jumping points are determined by various factors including “style” whereas the long jump is entirely about how far you jump, no matter how much of a gangly fool you look while you do it.
Surely the aim of ski jumping should be to jump as far or high as possible and then land safely? Why should style have anything to do with it if it doesn’t help you jump further? If it was discovered that an airborne attempt at the hokey cokey added yards to the jump distance, surely that’s what the jumpers should do - but they wouldn’t because they’d lose points for style.
Of course the scoring problem is less easily fixed when it comes to gymnastics and diving, and I’m not really saying that the Olympics would be better without them. The fact that they are Olympic sports encourages people to get involved. And, within those sports, there’s undoubtedly a clear sense of what excellence is.
But I’d nix the dressage in a heartbeat - and bring in snooker instead. It should be at least a couple of Olympiads before the Chinese and the Germans are better at that than us.

David Mitchell of The Guardian has made his opinion of any sport that is judged on “impression” quite clear.

While it was funny the first time to read it I find myself not to be so interested in reading it when it is posted in the 50th thread I have opened in the past 2 days. :frowning:

Nero - I don’t need any education to know what I’m seeing. And the great thing about youtube is that it not only has videos of competition - it also has videos of WARMUPS. And the horrid riding in the warmups isn’t justified for what happens later in the ring. And of all the riders at FEI - she’s the only one I wouldn’t even want to meet. So many others are approachable and show a great enjoyment when riding - IMO - she never does. It always looks stressed, strained and PUSHED.

And I really don’t believe she will retire - she’s trolling IMHO for someone to step forward with some big buck horses.

Apparently they don’t think there is a problem:

REPORT BY THE SECOND FEI VICE PRESIDENT ON DRESSAGE

A detailed report on the findings of the FEI Second Vice President concerning a meeting held in Hong Kong was produced. The conclusion of the report is that the meetings had not affected the judging. The procedure will, however, be tightened so that this will not happen again. Dressage has had an excellent competition which was judged to the high standards expected at the Olympic Games

[QUOTE=nero;3460617]
AND she was marked down for it, just like the test you scribed for.[/QUOTE]

Not hardly as the tests I’ve seen have it marked insufficient ‘4’. Those judges were “nice” if it isn’t shown it should be a zero.

I liked the pink horse the best. :slight_smile: