AA show barns and turnout

[Cw123]

For anyone who has ever boarded with a top hunter/jumper trainer or who knows of someone who has, what have you found is the most common turnout practice used for high dollar horses that regularly compete with their owners/riders. Have you found these horses sustain less injuries from less turnout (say 3-4 hours in Indiviual paddocks) versus the ones that are out 8-12 hours a day? What may be a trainers reasoning for less turnout and is there a strong argument to convince someone that longer turnout is linked to less injuries than stalled horses?

Note- I am trying to help my friend (who is a working student at a AA show barn) approach the trainer about allowing the horses to go out for longer than 2 hours per day. Quote from her “it is so hard for me to be working outside on a beautiful and sunny day like today and have to watch the horses standing in their stalls staring at the empty paddocks.”

hopefully this post made sense to those reading! I am not very good at typing long paragraphs on my phone but told my friend I would see what COTH users say on th issue as you all always seem to be a very insightful bunch!

[Fiona_785]

I really think it depends on the barn and the type of program the horse is in. It’s been my experience that horses are given as much turn-out as possible relative to the amount of paddocks available. I’ve always boarded at A-show barns (though not the TOP of the line ones like Heritage Farm or Old Salem-level stables.)

I live in the Northeast and I’ve always been pretty proximal to big cities so turn-out is at a premium. Horses get as much as possible and my barn does about 8-9 hours or so, but we have enough turn-out. Some barns can only do 4-6 hour rotations due to lack of space but a lot of turn-out was important to me so I searched until I found a barn that could accommodate that. I can’t be out 6-7 days a week to ride so I really wanted a place where my horse could have plenty of room to stretch out and exercise himself.

When I was in Florida my horse, and many other AA show horses stayed out all night. I know not all show barns rolled that way but I felt it was best for my horse and he did great (he did NOT do well with daytime turnout because of the heat, he could only last 4 hours and he ended up having small issues he never had with nighttime turnout so I switched him back and he was back to normal.)

[ladyj79]

It entirely depends on the barn and the horses and the set up.

That said, in this situation I think the working student would be out of line to propose longer turn outs.

She is totally in line and should absolutely ask this trainer about this trainer’s philosophy regarding turn out.

student is the key word here. There to learn, even if what she learns isn’t something she ultimately agrees with or practices when she has her own program.

[asterix]

Plenty of Olympic level horses at eventing barns get lots of turnout. I think it varies a lot by discipline, and beliefs regarding rate of injury can be hard to change. I suspect less turnout has more to do with convenience and keeping paddocks looking nice than any data-driven knowledge about horse injuries.

[endlessclimb]

@ladyj79

It entirely depends on the barn and the horses and the set up.

That said, in this situation I think the working student would be out of line to propose longer turn outs.

She is totally in line and should absolutely ask this trainer about this trainer’s philosophy regarding turn out.

student is the key word here. There to learn, even if what she learns isn’t something she ultimately agrees with or practices when she has her own program.

Agreed x100. What is a working student doing making suggestions to the trainer’s program? So she learns what not to do. The horses are not going to die, she just doesn’t agree.

[mmeqcenter]

I agree that lack of turnout has mostly to do with human convenience. IME, lack of space was not a factor at most places (though obviously is at some) in Ohio, as they would have 20+ acres of pasture sitting empty most of the day/night. There’d be over a dozen paddocks, it’d be a 20-stall facility with 20 horses, and each horse would get about 3-4 hours out. People want their fields to be lush green and pretty, not muddy and grazed. Some owners want clean horses waiting in their stalls when they arrive at the barn to ride. It would make me so sad driving around in the spring and summer in Ohio seeing these full, fancy hunter barns with completely empty fields day after day.

Some BOs fear injury, but I’ve found that this concern mainly caused people to only do individual turnout, it wasn’t a factor in length of turnout. IMO, horses getting less turnout are more prone to injury because when they go out they run and buck like crazies from being cooped up. I have a couple Facebook friends whose horses get like zero turnout in the winter (up north) and they post videos of their horses’ psycho shenanigans free in the indoor arena and caption it like their horse is just so silly and loony. No ish, if I was stuck in a box 24/7 I’d go loony tunes too. Horses that are out 24/7 don’t get the crazies nearrrrrrrrrrly as often. The only time I see my horses (out 24/7) do more than a slow amble is when a new horse arrives on the property (it really gets their panties in a wad).

I definitely agree with ladyj, it is not a working student’s place to question the schedule at a facility.

[OneTwoMany]

@ladyj79

It entirely depends on the barn and the horses and the set up.

That said, in this situation I think the working student would be out of line to propose longer turn outs.

She should absolutely ask this trainer about this trainer’s philosophy regarding turn out.

student is the key word here. There to learn, even if what she learns isn’t something she ultimately agrees with or practices when she has her own program.

Turnout practices run the gambit. Some trainers don’t turnout at all.

Some trainers are of the view, the more unsupervised turnout the greater the opportunity for the horse to hurt itself. Top H/J barns are paid the big bucks because their programs work. If their programs produce results on 2 hours of turnout a day, they will stick with what works and what has been successful. 2 hours of turnout a day isn’t a schedule I would prefer, but we aren’t on the road 40 weeks a year and maybe this trainer is.

The working student is there to learn. She doesn’t have to agree with the turnout schedule. Someday when she has her own barn she can run things as she sees fit. In the meantime, it would be inappropriate for her to suggest program changes to her boss. By all means the WS should ask why things are done this way or that way, as long as it is done with a desire to learn.

[snaffle1987]

-And we wonder why so many hunters have to be drugged out of their minds in order to compete and win
-I wouldn’t board anywhere where horses are not allowed outside daily, even for half a day. All-day would be my preference. Even if the horse is six figures and in a top program. Mental health is just as valuable to the horse.
-Sure, horses can injure themselves outdoors but they are just as likely to kick a stall wall or cast themselves inside; Heck they are more likely to get injured in their everyday jumping routines.
Even horses on the track; the higher end trainers have small round-pens to allow their horses to go out and at least spend some time being a horse.
-Overall I think turnout daily is important to overall health of the horse; even if its in a smaller paddock. Less digestive issues, better mental-state, happier, overall healthier body.

I never understood the H/J way of keeping horses cooped up indoors 24/7 and I hope practices continue to change

I’d suggest she inquire about the reasoning for horses being kept in all the time. Might be better on getting the discussion started.

[beau159]

@OneTwoMany

The reality is, the more turnout, the more opportunity for the horse to hurt itself.

I disagree completely. As another poster already brought up, the longer a horse is confined the more “pent up” energy they are going have, the more likely they are to run around like an idiot when they get outside. THAT is what puts them at risk to pull or strain something - when they’ve been standing in a stall for the past 20 hours and then suddenly go run around.

Also makes them more likely to “act a fool” when you are trying to school them or handle them.

Sure, horses that are turned out all day can and do get hurt while turned out. But so do horses that are standing in a stall all day. Not to mention, lack of movement is not good for a horse’s body. Their circulation system functions best for a horse that walks/moves slowly all day as they were intended to do - not one that is confined to a stall.

So “in reality”, the horse that has the least amount of turnout is the one that is more at risk for getting hurt and having health problems such as ulcers or bad habits such as cribbing.

[halt]

@OneTwoMany

Turnout practices run the gambit. Some trainers don’t turnout at all.

The reality is, the more turnout, the more opportunity for the horse to hurt itself. Top H/J barns are paid the big bucks because their programs work. If their programs produce results on 2 hours of turnout a day, they will stick with what works and what has been successful. 2 hours of turnout a day isn’t a schedule I would prefer, but we aren’t on the road 40 weeks a year and maybe this trainer is.

again, i have not had this be the case. actually - i’ve had the opposite be the case – some of the nastiest freak injuries i’ve dealt with have happened to horses in stalls and/or in the aisleway.

the less turnout the horse receives, the less conditioned their limbs are and the more likely they are to suffer from chronic inflammation in their lower limbs - which is particularly insidious when you consider what chronic inflammation does to joints like the coffin bone, and ligaments like the suspensory. stalled horses, in my experience, are much more prone to lower limb injuries.

that is only the physical aspect – the mental aspect, IMHO, is worse because it causes horses to act absolutely nutty in the short time they have outside. they’ll rip around at mach speed because they havent seen turnout in 18 hours, and then they get hurt.

there are multiple studies out there that show how negative an impact stalling has on a horse.

you want a fit, sound horse? keep it outside 24/7 or as much as possible.

you want an unsound, expensive pet? stall it for 18+ hrs of the day.

there is a reason so many show horses “tweak their suspensories” and have major failure of limbs - and IMHO, a huge part of it is rooted in their management and how little turnout and conditioning their limbs receive.

in the 12+ years we’ve had our competition horses outside 24/7 – guess how many have had a suspensory or tendon injury?

[OutsidersOpinion]

It depends entirely on the horse. And property. Most barns I have been around, including the one I’m at now, ride/walker/treadmill in the morning and horses go out in the afternoon for 2-3 hours, get hand walked, and a few go out all night. They typically spend about 6-7 hours out of their stall. It works for all the horses, and if we have one that is particularly nutty then they can be hand walked or put on the walker again if needed. Most of ours have never had hours and hours of turnout and are ready to come in by the hour mark even with fairly good grass.

[bt1]

Ummm totally out of line for her to question the trainer’s turn out practices.

[no_sniveling]

Sorry, I feel it IS totally appropriate to raise concerns about questionable practices.
The horses can’t speak for themselves!

[Blinky]

The working student should ask for the philosophy around the turn out schedule. That’s how they learn. They should not approach it that they have the right answer and the trainer does not. Besides-what’s the results? Just because the horses are looking outside their stall does not mean they want to meander around the pasture!

I am at an A show barn and the turn out schedule is dependent on what the horse needs and desires. Some are ready to come in after 30 minutes. Others get night turn out…and lots of schedules in between.

[oppsfelldown]

@no sniveling

Sorry, I feel it IS totally appropriate to raise concerns about questionable practices.
The horses can’t speak for themselves!

No - she is the student it is not appropriate for her to suggest changing the trainers program. That’s a fast way to get shown the door. She can however ask why the limited turn out and the trainer’s thoughts about longer turnout. There could be lots of reasons that she is not aware of including a schedule set by the property owner.

[ladyj79]

@oppsfelldown

including a schedule set by the property owner.

Many pros these days do not own properties and this is a HUGE reason for a lot of things that are done. And fwiw in situations like these I promise you your pro may not even share these kinds of reasons to some random person like a working student who might go run their mouth to god knows who about how Susie Trainer said such and such about the owner. No. Nonono.

[OneTwoMany]

@beau159

I disagree completely. As another poster already brought up, the longer a horse is confined the more “pent up” energy they are going have, the more likely they are to run around like an idiot when they get outside. THAT is what puts them at risk to pull or strain something - when they’ve been standing in a stall for the past 20 hours and then suddenly go run around.

I have corrected my original post to word it more carefully. What I was trying to share with the OP is that some trainers are of the view that unsupervised turnout presents more opportunity for injury than other activities. Some trainers who have this philosophy make up for the limited turnout with a treadmill, or an equi-ciser, or hand grazing, hand walking, a second ride during the day, or some combination of the above.

Personally, I would not advocate a program that only offers 2 hours a day of turnout, I was simply trying to highlight that these programs exist and some are very successful.

[ladyj79]

@OneTwoMany

Personally, I would not advocate a program that only offers 2 hours a day of turnout, I was simply trying to highlight that these programs exist and some are very successful.

when we moved from Belgium to Holland the large and beautiful paddocks were not maintained and riddled with rabbit holes. My horses went from usually six hours of turn out to approximately zero turn out except for the 20 or 30 minutes a day I turned them loose in the indoor. They were in the eurocizer and had some hand grazing time daily, it was not what I prefer but it was what was necessary. They still went out and competed successfully at CSIs.

[Jsalem]

I don’t know if it’s such an “A” show barn thing or if it’s the reality of keeping show horses. Show clients want a barn that’s a reasonable distance from their home or work. In a market that will sustain “A” show horses, that usually means an area within a reasonable distance to a city. These clients also need a certain infrastructure including arenas, covered arenas, barns, etc, etc, etc. This stuff is really, really expensive. In my area, the land goes for 30-50k per acre. Add the cost of fencing and the huge expense of lime,seed, fertilizer and the 1-2 acres per horse that you need to have that 6-8 hours of grazing per day that people would like costs an absolute fortune. So I have lovely fields but I don’t allow my horses to run around in them. I don’t allow my horses out on them at all when it’s really wet. Certain times of the year, I close down some of the paddocks so they can rest and I utilize my bucking paddocks. Honestly, if I let my clients have whatever they wanted, my pastures would be dirt.

I don’t think that people have any idea what it costs to purchase and maintain a facility to run an “A” show program out of with lovely grass turnout. So no, I am not able to offer my clients 6-8 hours of grass turnout every day. My clients don’t want to pay 2000 per month board so that I can purchase and maintain an extra 20 acres of grass so that they can see their horse munching contentedly for 6 hours. The horses at my training farm are in work. They are turned out every day, weather permitting. They go on the treadmill and they a ridden 5-6 days per week. Horses that are not in that kind of work (old, young, or resting from an injury)- they go to a different farm where they go out 4-8 hours per day depending on the weather.

OP, you could certainly ask your trainer about the facility’s turnout schedule. I imagine there is a reason for it.

[findeight]

More to do with the property limitations or the desires of the property owner ( who is likely not the trainer)and, of course, the wishes of those pesky owners who pay the bills.

Theres a million reasons ranging from too many horses on too small a property to support a lavish turn out program to purely cosmetic reasons-sunbleaching, blemishes on high dollar Hunters, bug allergies etc. to just not having any turnout in urban barns. It’s not a “questionable practice” if there isn’t any or if it’s not 24/7. Its just the way that barn operates. Owners are certainly free to pick another barn although they may need to drive quite a bit further.

Anyway…the working student here needs to be careful in questioning the trainers choices. Fine to ask about turnout theories in general, ask directly why this horse or that horse are on the schedule they are or seemily critical of trainers decisions will get this young WS turned out. With her stuff and her dog.

There is no one and only way because there is no one and only barn. Unless it’s yours.