Absolutely Amazing!

[Epitome]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
The racing industry creates the majority of the mistakes and is where irresponsiple breeding should be stopped in its track. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXCUSE ME???

The racing industry most definitely does NOT create the majority of the mistakes. The racing industry is made up of professionals who actually have some idea what they’re doing. The people who create most of the mistakes are the backyard breeders and trainers who find a cheap horse somewhere who is by nobody out of the family pet, and decide to try their hand at breeding, because their horse is “incredibly well bred, with names like Man O War and Secretariat in their bloodlines”. Or they decide to train their own at the track, and wind up with an ill bred horse who has 52 starts, no places, but is great breeding material, because they retired sound.

I’ve seen it a thousand times on these very boards, for goodness sake! For example, this was posted a while back:

“I have a 10 year old Thoroughbred mare, Never Knew, that we are about to breed for a racehorse. He grandfather is Seattle Slew, and she has some nice lines. We want to breed her to a nice stally somewhere in West Virginia/Maryland.”

This is the type of person that creates the problem, not the racing industry.

Not to mention the fact that racehorses make up less than 5% of the overall population going to slaughter each year.

[drifting_cloud]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gobabygo:
can anyone tell me how to post a picture?? i have one of burning sun i’d like to post. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have to pay for a premium membership. Or, you can e-mail the picture to someone with a premium membership and ask them to post it for you. If someone is a premium member, it says so under the screen name (at the top and left of each post).

[Inyureye]

Hi, I am coming into this discussion late, please forgive me if this issue has already been addressed, however, reading the first half of the thread, I keep waiting for someone to address the most obvious question about this horse - why should he be bred? Certainly not for his conformation, and it sounds like the act its self is physically stressful. I would be surprised if the horse is rideable, but I am hopeing to find out that he has been gelded?

[NMS]

Epitome–thank you! The irony is not lost, but the opportunity certainly is.

Nancy

[The_Fjord_Jockey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
free, and others.

Just a sampling of this week’s mail includes someone who wants to know if I think it’s alright for them to use a piece of barbed wire to make a bit for their OTTB who “won’t turn good,” a woman who bought a pony for their child at a killer auction who has now been attacked multiple times by the pony, and whose duaghter has had their arm broken, and someone who bought a racing QH (as in less than a week off the track) for their 78 year old grandmother to trail ride on and did I think it was a good idea to give the horse some time off or anything before setting grandma loose in the wilds.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dang. Talk about sendin’ grandma over the river and through some woods. I’m all for the active elderly folk but that’s a bit extreme.

Barb wire? I can’t even stand the sight of people using it for fencing, much less a BIT. Jeezum.

[BaldEagle]

Heather

Its not surprising that a person that works with OTTB’s has a very reasonable and prudent position. You know what we are talking about and you also know what it takes to complete a rescue
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I would just hate to see someone read these boards, hear about, say, your lovely mare Laurie, go to New Hollland and buy something and end up with a horse that is dangerous to them, or requires care they are unable to provide, because they heard that the kill pens are filled with fabulous horses who just need loving homes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very very wise words Heather. The “rosy” picture that is portrayed in some of the rescues don’t tell the whole story about how much talent is required, how much time and money need to be invested to be successful.
Most of the horses in those auctions are beyond any possible rescue.

[BaldEagle]

Can I know what is the drf website ? Is that “Daily Racing Form” ?

I think some sense went to those heads at the rescue and that might well have come as a result of several “discussions” in different Forums criticizing their handling of the issue…

I even have some serious doubts about the whole affair.
Horse rescues…

[Laurierace]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beezer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Laurierace:
We are having his papers overnighted to us by his previous owner who is being very cooperative. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this the person who dumped him at New Holland? If so, did he/she say why?

And while I applaud you – no, sing, dance, wave my arms and then bow to you – for the rescue work you do, I simply don’t know how you keep yourself from hauling off and clobbering these people.

As you can probably tell, I tend to make only monetary contributions to rescue groups, lest I be arrested for assaulting a$$holes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Luckily, I don’t have to do much of the dealing with people. I can’t tell you how many times someone has told me that I have to take their horse TODAY or else they are going to the killers. When you tell them it will be soon, but not today, they inevitably say “So you are just going to let them die?” Like I am the one sending them there! That one drives me crazy because if you accomodate them by taking their horse right then, you are basically screwing over the people on the waiting list who are nice enough to wait their turn, but if you don’t…

[War_Admiral]

He is gorgeous. Blessings on you Laurierace for rescuing this wonderful horse!! Wish it was me!

…And JHC on a RAFT, what are people THINKING when horses like this get sent to New Holland!!!

[free]

BaldEagle…I have some questions regarding your post;

        1.what you were willing to say, but DIDN'T????

        2.then innuendos (that aren't clear)? 

        3.GOOD horses don't end up in auctions?

Surely you jest. There are numerous ‘good’ horses that HAVE been found at the cheap auctions and gone on to highly successful careers in other venues and even return in their own. I know of one Saddlebred that was bought off a “killer” truck and went back to showing at the top levels. No one knows how he fell through the cracks. What about the famous jumper named Snowman? Others successful horses narrowly missed getting ON the truck Rattle and Hum is one. So if LCR prompts people to look at these auctions…that’s wonderful"

[SeaOat]

Free:
What I was trying to point out, is all great race colts get the best mares those first few years, for obvious reasons. That is a thought among many, that his mates carried him…but I don’t know enough about that to say.
But back to our subject stallion by Danzig, I can’t imagine anything more than average mares coming to him, like so many cheaper stallions. I can’t decide who’s more frustrating, the boys who don’t add anything & stand or the girls who’ve no business being dams.
To address those who keep throwing in exceptions to logical rule…one must remember these are EXCEPTIONS in the ranks and not meant to set a standard.
I know one thing in racing: the people who care most about the bloodlines are owners and owners who breed.

[Las_Olas]

Good job Laurierace. I have to say that I’m very disappointed in Juddmonte, though. Do you remember who you spoke with. I know a lot of the people over there, and you can bet I’m going to give them hell over this. As far as I’m concerned, if you breed a horse, that horse is your responsibility. ANY horse that I have bred will be welcome back to my farm. I may not have room to keep them forever, but I will retrain them or have them trained at my expense and then find them a home. Every industry needs to clean up after itself.

[SeaOat]

Free: I do have a Secretariat bobblehead…now there’s a beauty! The feet are the same size as his head, he’s a liver brown, and his mouth has lips like a llama . But if I squint & look sideways I can see the super-horse w/in…

[Laurierace]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldEagle:
OK. So “the rescue you volunteer with” DID NOT buy the horse for $175 as you initially said but for $225 as the article said. Correction dully noted.

If you always wait, as you say, “until they are sold and in the kill pen so we know that we are rescuing a horse that actually is in need of rescuing.” it seems a risk that you could face with someone that refuses to sell the horse back to you and take it to is final destination. (I know money is scarce and every dollar counts)

Anyway there is something else that I am also wondering about. What is the ongoing “meat price” in the US?

If I have it correct a horse of this type should fetch around $400. Why $225 only ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately there are always many to chose from in the kill pen. We select the one or two that we want and if we can’t get them, we move on to a different choice. At this point it is a much bigger problem deciding which ones of the many to save than it is getting someone to sell us one.
The meat prices are in the $300-$400 range right now, but this horse was skinny meaning less meat and a stallion. The killer buyer now has to segregate stallions from the other horses. It makes the too much of a hassle to pay full price for.

[Sandbarhorse]

I’ll agree to disagree on whether a rescue should ever consider breeding a horse they’ve rescued. With repsct to this horse, having more info. on his pedigree and it’s value, I’ll concede that this horse shouldn’t be bred 9at least for racing). I agree as to his future. If he can’t be ridden and a companion home can’t be found, I guess he’s better off being humanely put down. Too bad, as he really is a beautiful horse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
I’m sure you TB folks do the same, but I spend a lot of time looking at produce records for AQHA reining studs. Take total number of offspring, minus number not of performing age, divide the number of performing offspring by that number. And you get % of offspring who are performers. Not necessarily great performers, but have some record however small. Average number to come up with for say the top 50 studs in the country? 50% Very small portion of the top 50 might have between 55-65%. So that means 50% of the offspring of the very top reining studs end up with a performance record. And the top reining studs have extensive performance records of their own. 50% offspring with performance records is considered the best breeding odds on paper. That’s pretty risky numbers.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There’s just one flaw with that reasoning, Bea. A lot of top horses offspring don’t ever get a performance record, that we can see, due to their purchase by non-show types and those that have no desire or ability to make it to those levels. I’m sure there are a lot of horses doing local shows and leading happy lives, that just don’t make it to an NRHA approved show. it is not necessarily due to lack of talent on the horse’s part. There’s also a monetary issue to showing and the mares portion of the equation to consider.

One thing the WB folks do do right, is require inspections/performance records to allow registration of foals.

[LCR]

Reading over the forum replies is very painful! Many of you are nit picking, sour grapes, the whole smear-- Read your comments–many of them are like the “worst” of the horse industry.

Can’t you be elated that someone took the time to recognize “quality” in the kill pen and rescued this young stallion?

Please give someone credit for once and back off!!!

[Laurierace]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Epitome:
Laurierace

I doubt that I’ll ever get an answer to this question, as you have avoided it so far, but how can you justify breeding this horse, based on Lost And Found’s own criteria for adoption?

I applaud your having adopted him, but how can you even consider breeding him, when the rescue doesn’t allow breeding of their adoptees.
I’ve seen this same question being asked on several differnt boards, but as yet have seen no answer, just the same replies with the same sort of insults that you are hurling around on this one.

I understand your wanting everyone to pat you on the back and tell you how wonderful you are, but any organization that begs for public funds in order to operate has to be accountable to that same public for how they handle their affairs, or they quickly lose the public’s respect, just as your organization has lost mine.

I simply cannot take seriously any rescue who is so perfectly willing to bend their own rules just to make a profit. That sort of kills your credibility as far as doing what’s best for the horse, and makes it seem as though you are more interested in what will bring in the most money for you.

By the way, is Lost and Found a registered non profit organization? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know I said I was done, but I don’t want you to think I am afraid to answer your questions. I have stated over and over again that I am a VOLUNTEER at several rescues including Lost and Found. I did not rescue him, I did not adopt him, and I am not going to breed him. What happens to him in the future is not my decision to make although I do have my own opinion obviously. Personally, I think this horse has already done his job by raising awareness both with the public and with some very influential people in the industry.
Yes, Lost and Found is a 503 C non profit, so whatever money generated by this horse either directly or indirectly, will not line anyone’s pockets.
I don’t want or need you to pat me on the back or tell me how wonderful I am. I know that the work that I do makes a difference, that is enough reward for me. I also don’t feel that I have hurled insults nor anything else at anyone. Just sharing a event in my life. If it is of interest to you, read it, if it isn’t then move on, no hard feelings.

[free]

BaldEagle…to be ‘beyond any possible rescue’ they would have to be at death’s door or totaly unmanageable. I have not inspected every cheap auction, but I am sure that you haven’t either, so how can you make such ridiculous assumptions of percentages as ‘most’ are beyond any possible rescue?

I give credit to ‘most’ readers and potential buyers that they are not so naive as you would make them out to be, and that they are intelligent enough to think for themselves. Where there is life there is hope and I’m all for giving a horse a second chance.

Heather…most of YOUR posts are intelligent and right on (I actually seek them out). However, I did disagree with you somewhat on this one.

[Las_Olas]

Toadies Mom - Of course I’m not mad at you! I just thought that what you said was an out of line generalization. There are some crappy people in this industry, but I’ve met some really great people in the oddest places, who have done a lot to help me. I have had some bad experiances, mostly with trainers, but I try to get over it and move on (but I have my moments, too ). We’re still on for drinks at Keeneland!

BaldEagle - No, not everyone will follow in my footsteps. Maybe that’s why they make money and I only get a tax write-off every year! Good thing I have a day job. I also realize that large scale breeding isn’t for me. I love the horses too much on a personal level. So, maybe that’s a flaw, but I can live with it. I’m also not against eating horses, or against people selling them for meat. It’s the suffering on their way there that gets me. And, the fact that it’s so under-regulated and you have to wonder how many stolen animals end up there.

Epitome - I agree with you completely. In my opinion, though, the horse shouldn’t be bred and neither should other rescue horses. My reasoning is that when a horse ends up in a kill pen, it’s not so much an individual that feels the animal is worthless, but the entire market must feel that way or the animal would’ve been sold elsewhere. The $25,000 that was offered may have been before the people making the offer realized that the horse has a problem. If three previous owners have decided that he can’t breed (Juddmonte, then Rickman, then the guy with the 5 mares), then I think it wouldn’t be in the horses best interest to try again. I don’t have first hand knowledge of this situation, though, and there are always exceptions.

[SeaOat]

SeaOat said:
If we can (unlike so many other countries) funnel thousands, on top of thousands, of small animals through private, state & federal agencies (to be placed or euthanized) without the advantage of slaughter, then WHY is it so hard to conceive the same laws and plans for horses???

BALDEAGLE replied:
The “small animal spending” is a result of the serious human health related problems that can be created by stray animals. Not the case of the horse. Its human welfare that is at stake in this case.
Also we have long ago and in other threads gone through “numbers” to see how many horses could be “retired” with an average life span of 10 years. The numbers are staggering and could well top half a million horses in 10 years and thereafter. The logistical nightmare and the cost to provide adequate care for them are absolutely unacceptable in societies where a lot of human needs are not yet addressed for lack of adequate funding…
Talking about spending a single dollar in retirement of horses ? No way.
Think about increasing retirement facilities and health care, drug plans and so on for humans and you will have my support."

SeaOat says in re:
You need to focus. I say pretty CLEARLY that I am for euthanizing horses that cannot be placed. I said NOTHING about state/federal funded “retirement”. There are more humane, and relatively inexpensive (though not profitable) ways to dispose of a horse than sending to slaughter. You blab on about people’s rights…were there laws in place WITHOUT the option of slaughter, more abused/unwanted/neglected horses would fall into the hands of welfare agencies who would have the legal right to euthanize. While small animals running at large DO pose a human health risk, a large % of animals that end up in shelters are brought there by their owners or confiscated by animal patrol. I see the same possibility (larger than what already exists) for horses. A 20 horse barn behind your local ASPCA without a slaughter option. Hmmmmm.
You cannot equate the social need of one agency with the needs of another as a reason to forfeit all together.
Everyone has the RIGHT to fund their own cause, often with help from tax dollars. Lobbyists (spew) loby for your causes and for others you distain as well. I have just as much RIGHT to ask for tax dollars to be spent for my ideals as you do.
FYI, & like it or not, there are noticable amounts of people with more concern for pets/animals than they are with other humans…it’s not getting the funding that’s the problem, it’s reaching a majority rule on how to spend it. I’m out to push people into another way of thinking. It’s my right.
I don’t think all horses can be saved. I don’t think all horses should be saved. I don’t think the #s would be as high in ANY breed if people were more prudent & intelligent & realistic in their breeding, or lack of. I DON’T agree with slaughter, purple juice being readily available.
You talk about the strength of horse hide over cow (maybe pig & deer too, both are used in saddles). We have a thing called RENDERING plants where you can haul/sell your euthanized horse off to be tanned and processed. You can also donate your dead horse to a school. You can euthanize the animal (for about $21.00) and have it buried (a service usually costing around $250.) on your farm. But without slaughter you most certainly won’t be sending it off to be someone else’s problem and pocketing any change for your effort. You’ll have to deal with your animal properly or answer to a welfare agency under law. And if you do let your horse die from neglect undetected, well nothing is fool-proof. But I somehow doubt the #s of neglect will be as high as the #s of slaughter, and in time euthanasia will be easier and more accepted as well as make those around you understand their responsibility more clearly.