<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by windycity:
I think it’s great – the story and the outcome.
He is a lovely boy and I am thrilled he was saved.
Best of luck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I absolutely agree that it is a lovely boy.
The “story” is also great no doubt. I repeat the “story”. 
Because there are all ready a LOT of TBs that are bred to the hilt & that actually HAVE race records standing. We don’t need another one, unless (and this is a big unless) there is a truly compelling reason to think he has something to offer to the TB gene pool. This goes for ALL stallions, not just TBs. There are plenty of ‘meh’ WB, QH, whatever stallions out there - ones with very nice bloodlines & little else.
Just because his sire recently retired from stud duties is NOT a reason to breed him.
Am I the only one who finds this whole situation a little ironic? Here we have a horse rescue whose own website states :
“This “Protective Ownership” means that the L&FHRF is the sole owner with the rules for adoption simple: don’t breed, race or resell any equine. By retaining ownership, we legally have the ability to reclaim a horse at any time and place it in a more suitable environment if a current situation is deemed unsatisfactory. While this “tough love” rule may seem extreme, it is founded with only the best intentions for each and every equine.”
But let them get their hands on a horse who can actually make them some cash, and that all goes out the window! I mean, nobody else who adopts an animal from this rescue can breed them, or sell them outright, but it’s ok for them to do it, as long as they can make a few bucks from it. I have no problem with profit, and I fully understand that many horses can be helped with the proceeds from selling Media Empire for breeding, but I do think that perhaps the rescue needs to get off their high horse a bit if they are going to turn around and do exactly what they complain about other people doing. Either everybody gets to do whatever they want with their own horses, or they all follow the same rules. Be honest and admit that you are no better than anyone else when it comes to making money, and that all principles can be compromised if the price is right.
I fully expect to get flamed for saying this, but I think that it’s a valid point. I have attempted to adopt horses from “rescue organizations” like this one many times, only to get a list of rules that they expect me to abide by, including the one about not really owning the horse that I adopt. Frankly, I have a real problem with this. If a rescue wants to dictate how a horse is going to be cared for, then they had best do the caring themsleves, with their own money. I have been in the horse business my whole life, I own my own farm, and I pay all my horse’s bills, without needing to ask strangers for donations to do so. My horses get the best possible care, and I pay for all of it myself. I also rescue many horses off the racetrack, and find them good homes, or keep them myself, if they have health issues that make it seem like the best course for their future welfare. But as their owner, I expect to be fully in charge of them, and not have to answer to someone else who hasn’t been paying for their upkeep, or doing any of the labor involved with it. If a rescue wants to maintain control, then let them also maintain the bills. If not, then let the person who is footing those bills do as they see fit.
I just find it a little hypocritical for a rescue to forbid anyone else to breed one of their horses, and then to turn around and do it themselves, in order to profit from it. You are either a rescue, and worried about the horse’s well being first and foremost, or you are in it for the money, and sell to the highest bidder. Decide which it is going to be, and get on with it.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
so how can you make such ridiculous assumptions of percentages as ‘most’ are beyond any possible rescue? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What you call my “ridiculous assumptions” are based also in the assumption that most American horse-owners are intelligent and caring people that do not throw away “good horses” as a sport or just for the sake of it. I have posted, in the above posts, more then once, how come they end up there. Just have the time to read them.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
I give credit to ‘most’ readers and potential buyers that they are not so naive as you would make them out to be, and that they are intelligent enough to think for themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
WRONG. Some of the readers of these posts and potential buyers are simply being MISLEAD by lots of posts and “stories” that do not reflect the reality at all.
Not long ago I was thinking that with my knowledge I would be perfectly able to by an OTTB and give him a second career. Bought a book about training horses just in case I didn’t knew it all, and if it weren’t because of a few problems that still persist I would have embarked in a situation that could have turned the wrong way. That’s when I started posting about the costs “From OTTB to a jumper” or something similar.
By that time I already knew about the “stories” that abound everywhere and that I am not at all qualified for the retraining of an OTTB. At least the adaptation, the uncover of talents and the initial training phases must be made by a more knowledgeable persons then I am. I included found someone in my area willing to do the job. A soon as I am ready I am going to talk to her to see if we can strike a deal before buying anything. If it is feasible then I am going to talk with a COTHER that know where 900 magnificent horses are …
Also I must say that the animal freaks, horse nuts and the like, that embarked in a kind of extremism really touch my nerves. That situation must be fought to prevent the distortion of the realities and abusive positions that might well lead to legislation that will greatly affect humans.
It’s not just my opinion that this “animal stuff” especially in the US is getting completely and dangerously out of hand. In Europe there is LEGISLATION in the works to combat this type of animal extremism.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>[I]Home Office minister Caroline Flint said the strategy was to tighten up and amend existing legislation - rather than create a separate bill to deal with the problem.
“We will be strengthening the powers of the police to tackle protests outside family homes because it’s not just about the impact on the person targeted but the whole family,” she told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.
“What we are talking about here is an extremist campaign attacking people for doing activities which are guided by the law,” she added.
She said the UK had the “strongest laws in the world” on the use of animals in research and people were being attacked “for doing nothing illegal”.[/I] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Animal extremists face crackdown
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>On Friday the Home Office unveiled plans for a crackdown on animal rights campaigners who use terror tactics against scientists
Protesting outside someone’s house in an intimidating manner will be made a specific criminal offence and harassment laws will be tightened.
It follows concern the economy is being harmed by the security costs firms face in dealing with such activism.
The government has warned activists they may be banned from entering the UK and statements made by them are being examined. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
US animal activist defies warning
Animal activists ‘damage economy’
If you see most of the Horse “Rescues” websites you will find almost always the same thing:
A moving story about a “good horse” that ended up in a slaughter house, with as many gruelling details as possible, followed by a scheme to induce people to open their purses…
You will also find all kinds of vitriolic prose against horse slaughter, which is no more then a fine way to create a monumental problem and a nightmare of “retired” horses that is impossible to manage and to support.
In my opinion this is only an attempt to divert hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayers money to increase their business prospects in a country where untold human needs have not being addressed yet for lack of adequate funding.
Just as an example in thousands, ask your retired “humans” why are they going to Canada to buy all the drugs they need at reasonable prices…
This “story” of the “media empire” happened July 17 and, at the speed of the light, a few days later was in the website of “you know who” with links to two media websites “to see the whole story” with the PayPal sign not far and a request to help them to “stay operational”. But nowhere to be seen is some important details as the name of the guy that sent the horse to the auction so we can confirm the story.
Some of this type of horsy stories, even if some are true, are no more then marketing coups which is bad, or political ploys which is worse.
Laurierace,
Thanks for what you do rescuing these guys… He looks amazing. I can’t understand why someone would give him away…
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free:
Epitome…where is your proof that they intend to breed poorly bred horses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, for starters, the fact that he is going to be the sire. If they intended to breed good ones, they would choose another stallion. I’ll rest my case on that one.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And that 20 is only from one track. Whoops…you forgot to do the math. How many tracks are racing at any given time. Then average the number of horses shipping from all of them to various cheap auctions and the picture is quite different. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I’m not the one with the math problem. If every racetrack in the country sends 20 horses per week to the auction, (which they don’t, by the way) and every auction had only 20 horses entered, then I might agree with you. But I haven’t seen that 20 horse auction yet. Seems that most of them usually have a few hundred. So subtract that 20 fromn the racetrack, and where did the other 80 or more come from? And which number is larger, 80 or 20? That’s pretty simp[le math, isn’t it? Not to mention the fact that not all of the horses at auction go to slaughter. Given a choice between Ole Bessie, 27 years old, blind, crippled and dumped by Farmer John’s kids as too bad to ride, and a still sound 4 year old retired racer, who do you think the average horse shopper is going to buy?
You can twist the facts to suit your particular predudice all you want, but you can’t change the facts. The racing industry isn’t the creator of all evils when it comes to horse slaughter.
$25,000!
Face the Music
10-year-old
Thoroughbred
Mare
16.2 hands
Slaughter rescue. We bought this lovely chestnut mare out of the meat pen on Monday, and took her to a hunter show on Wednesday. She’s clearly got show experience, knows her leads, jumps beautifully and is over-all, a very nice girl. She’s very kind and sensible and would be suitable for an intermediate rider working with a trainer.
back to top.
And with that I am officially done. Best wishes to all of you. PS. I saw this mare at the show with my own eyes. She wasn’t made up either.
While I can understand both sides, and yes the $25k will be very beneficial for many many horses think about it this way:
If you were adopting a mare out the max # of foals she can possibly produce (to contribute to horses in kill pens) is SO much smaller than the same # for a stallion. Ok so he wont be in Ky breeding 50+ mares, but the max a mare can produce is 1 a year barring twins. Just food for thought. I honestly dont know what I would do if it was up to me… $25k goes a long way towards rescuing and caring for other horses, esp when its invested such as in facilities/premises for rescues - would make nice down payment anyway, or if premises arent a concern it could be invested and the interest is used or reinvested.
Bald Eagle- I thought this was a racing forum?? Yes, DRF is the daily racing form.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by_ Laurierace_:
Today the rescue that I volunteer for bought a 3 yr old colt out of the kill pen at New Holland for $175. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally from the _ThoroughbredTimes :
Young operates Lost and Found Horse Rescue in York, Pennsylvania, and despite a sold tag already adorning Media Empire, Young knew the colt was one she had to have. She found the buyer, negotiated a $225 price, and took the colt back to Lost and Found. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
_ Laurierace:
There is something that doesn’t match. So the “Rescue you volunteer for” bough the colt for $175 as you say, right ?
But the article says that this price was for a Canadian slaugther company (Ah always those canadians) and the “rescue” negotiated $225 for it.
So where is the exact truth stands ?
Or is it that the Canadian “interference” here is just “film” to turn the rescue even more heroic, another tearful story for the website, or another banner for the anti-slaughter movement? Is that so ?
I am very picky with these type of details. It happens that I just love accuracy and truth. Could you explain the discrepancy for me, please ?[/QUOTE]
If you read the article, the horse was bought by a killer buyer for $175. We paid them $50 plus the $175 they paid for the horse. This is how we always do it. Until a horse actually goes through the ring, you don’t know where they are going to end up. We wait until they are sold and in the kill pen so we know that we are rescuing a horse that actually is in need of rescuing.
The last owner is clearly identified and quoted in the above article as well. As far as your claims that the story could be padded to make the resuce more heroic, and more of a tear jerker is silly. People who care about the story will care about it the way it really is. People who are pro slaughter wouldn’t care if the Pope personally handed Smarty Jones over to slaughter. You either care or you don’t and nothing added or left out will change that.
If they want to support breeding quality individuals, they should START with a high quality stud that offers SOMETHING that the legion of mid-level/regional race stallions already out there don’t.
This one doesn’t.
So Danzig is his sire. Epitome has already discussed some of the issues of his pedigree. A friend of mine has a turf horse who is bred very, very well (top AND bottom) & she already has well-respected racing people who have expressed their desire to take a mare to him. He’s stakes winning (in good company) & placed horse, with some top 3 graded finishes in there; mostly in Europe, on the grass, over long-ish distances (wherein lies the big stumbling block). He retired totally SOUND at the age of NINE, after breaking his maiden in a maiden stakes at the age of 2. She’s STILL batting around the idea of standing him, nearly a year after his retirement - she wants to, and feels (along with other people) that he definitely has something to offer & probably has more to offer than a lot of our regional VA/MD stallions - but she’s still taking a good, long hard look at her options & if this is something that is worth doing - can this horse really improve upon the stock that is out there? And this is for a horse who is better bred than the rescue horse, a WINNER, and sound. Black-type, etc. Not a rare horse at all, although I think he’s got some nice bloodlines to offer, that differ from a lot of the stuff you see here. Who knows what will happen - but if he doesn’t go to stud, he will be her foxhunter. It’s not the end of the world.
If this horse isn’t sound to be ridden, geld him & turn him out to pasture as a buddy. If that’s not a suitable career, figure something else out, or put him down. Why perpetuate the cycle by standing a horse with little to offer, other than a famous sire? There are PLENTY of those horses around, we don’t need more. It’s not going to fix the problem, but at least there won’t be any future offspring from THIS horse to go to slaughter.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCR:
Reading over the forum replies is very painful!
Please give someone credit for once and back off!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I didn’t find it “convenient” but if this is “painful” I would really like to see what your reaction would be if I posted exactly what I think about the whole affair…
I never backoff from anything…
First of all, I don’t want to be lumped in as not believeing laurierace, and I am commending her in the extreme for what she’s done. I think it’s despicable that the horse ended up in those striaghts, and I’m thrilled she found him, saved him, and is having such a good outcome.
If your last post was directed at me, then I’m sorry if you think I was bashing you in anyway Laurie, I was not, at all. The work you and people like you do is invaluable, and I am certain there is a special place in heavan for you.
If the lovely mare you found and rescued does not end up to have any issues, then you have indeed made a great find, and how lucky will the person be that ends up with her, and how lucky the horse to have been found.
But, I work with OTTBs, and I so very often see people dumping them after they purchased them from the track or from a rescue, because their hearts outstrip their training, riding, and horse mangement skills. The majority ofhorses from an auction or coming off the track will need expereinced horseman–either because they have physical issues that need care and management or because they have mental ones. I don’t think we as a community do horses any favors when we act as though this isn’t so, and anyone can handle these horses. These animals need and deserve caring, loving, expereinced homes who walk into this with their eyes wide open knowing what to expect. They should not be found homes just to find them homes, with people who have good hearts but no expereince, who in time will either pass them on, or not give them the home and care they deserve because of their inexpereince. It’s a romantic notion to rescue a horse from slaughter, but as with anything in horses the romance is often not nearly as realistic as the daily grind of their care and training and management.
I would just hate to see someone read these boards, hear about, say, your lovely mare Laurie, go to New Hollland and buy something and end up with a horse that is dangerous to them, or requires care they are unable to provide, because they heard that the kill pens are filled with fabulous horses who just need loving homes.
The fact that I think this way does not IN ANY WAY, mean though that i don’t think that people like you laurie are wonderful people’ who do grand work with not nearly enough support. I respect you enourmously, and the fact that I tend to be a bit cynical, should not be taken as a personal afront to you at all.
Well secretariat had a fairly good race record and he was a huge disappointment as a sire from what I heard. However, some less prestigeous relatives sharing some common bloodlines produced winners.
Are you only speaking in terms of beeding him as a producer of runners, or are you including Sporthorses?
My apologies for the hijack folks, but one more reining comment from me to Bea. I just thought you’d get a kick out of this Bea, seeing as how it sort of proves your point. I have a friend with a Topsail Cody son. You’d probably think, he’d at least be a pretty good reiner right? Well, he’s not even built for it. Picture tall, long, TB looking sorta guy. 
Sweet boy and a nice horse, but no born and bred reining genes visible.
There was recently an IRS sale of some cutting bred horses, including some carrying Color Me Smart blood, which is one stud that I’ve been watching. If I hadn’t already been going away, I might have at least gone to TX to look.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread:
That’s, I suppose the sort of risk you run in breeding horses. By culling certain horses, you never know if you’ve just nixed a potential superstar (it has happened with little known parents) or a line that may have proven its worht from another angle, like Secretariat as a broodmare sire (I’ve heard) or in another discipline. I suppose that’s why I see the name Danzig and wonder, however, if what has been posted is correct, then I suppose it’s better to err on the side of caution.
Laurierace sent me pictures and he’s a good looking colt. I wonder what the previous owner could possibly have been thinking? 
Albion and Moose -
I don’t think the lack of a performance career is a valid reason to discount a stallion, out of hand. Perhaps I’m biased, as my 2 paints were sired by a stallion who was injured, on the track, at 2yo. He is, however, a full brother to another stallion (now deceased, I believe), who wasn’t injured, was very sucessful on the track and has had an extensive breeding career. The breeder of my two horses (not me), decided that an injury wasn’t the same as a flaw and made an informed decision to breed to him.
The result, 2 horses that I have had many professionals compliment and have even had a purchase offer from a pro, who sees horses nationwide, on our gelding. Guess they made a good choice.
Now, that’s not to say that it wasn’t something of a gamble, but that’s the choice of a mare owner. The main thing is to find a way to educate people so that they realize that it’s a gamble and to have stallion owners who stop standing a horse that’s not putting quality individuals on the ground. Just to add fuel to the fire, like Impressive’s (the QH linked to HYPP, fo rthose who don’t already know) owners did, once they realized their horse was responsible. Too bad they didn’t have any control over all the foals he’d already sired. 
As for this horse, as I said earlier, there was no possible way this rescue would come out looking good to everyone.
Instead of looking for the slightest little thing to criticize (Bald Eagle and Epitome), i was thinking, “Wow, imagine how many more horses they could save by making money off this one.”
Most rescues have rules in place because no matter how carefully you place an animal, there is no guarantee the new owner(adopter, whatever) will take good care of the animal.
Burning Sun was with Frankel as of this spring. He began is career in Europe.
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