Has anyone here tried it? If so, how did it work for the horse? Where did you buy it? What amounts did you feed it in? Color me curious…TIA!
We tried it on both our EPSM horses and an IR pony. The EPSM horse that is working became symptomatic as soon as we tried dropping the oil amount he was getting. The mare is laid up so hard to tell what effect if any it had on her. Did not do any wonders for the IR pony in the two and a half months we tried it. Can’t say I’m a believer that it does any magic.
My horse was dubbed leptin-resistant based on the results of February bloodwork, where his leptin levels were high above normal. I put him on 1500mg ALCAR 2x/week. In July his leptin levels were on the high side of the normal range. This was not a scientific procedure.
I was skeptical about the entire thing, given the lack of research on it for leptin resistance. The reason I ended up paying for it in the first place was because of its role in bone health; the horse has sesamoiditis. Costs me $15 for a 3-month supply from the Walgreens up the street.
Testing ALC
I have used ALC in the past for various things and I include it in a couple of my mixes.
I am about to start a trial testing muscle enzymes with and without ALC.
I’ll let you know what we find.
MW
[QUOTE=Melyni;7154357]
I have used ALC in the past for various things and I include it in a couple of my mixes.
I am about to start a trial testing muscle enzymes with and without ALC.
I’ll let you know what we find.
MW[/QUOTE]
I’m curious to know what you found in your testing. TIA!
I tested about 20 horses. They had all been referred to me by various vets around the area for “tying-up” type problems. On testing only 60% actually had symptoms consistent with EPSM/PSSM. Though we did give the ALC to everyone who wanted to try it, even if the horse did not have clear cut EPSM/PSSM.
So all horses had an exercise test, and blood levels of CK and AST were measured.
We then gave them ALC for 30 and 60 days, and retested.
We did get positive results, but due to the high variance in ages/fitness status, etc I could not process the results statistically, plus of course no controls.
So I would cautiously say that there is something in the the use of ALC. But that it needs a proper investigation with controls and a more homogenous group. Which adds up to money!
But if a horse has any symptoms of tying up it would be worth trying them on 30 days to see if they responded.
Hope this helps
MW
[QUOTE=Dune;7145494]
Has anyone here tried it? If so, how did it work for the horse? Where did you buy it? What amounts did you feed it in? Color me curious…TIA![/QUOTE]
It seems to be helpful for my mare.* I started her on it when she exhibited PSSM symptoms. She is also on a higher fat/low sugar grain-free diet. However, she is not on an extremely high fat diet, as some are for PSSM.
I buy it from Fox Den Equine. I feed 10 g daily. Some people do feed higher amounts to aid with PSSM management.
*Of course, this is not a scientific finding! In fact, it is such an affordable supplement and very much in the do no harm category that I don’t mind just providing it since it seems to be part of keeping her symptom-free.
Be careful assuming supplements “do no harm”. There is absolutely no research to define possible interactions between supplements and/or with meds. We know in humans some of these can increase the effect of others or block the effects when given in combinations.
Have spoken to a few vets lately who are becoming concerned over the amounts and combinations some of their client horses are getting with little research on their effect on horses alone and no research at all on interactions when combined.
Be smart about it.
I’m curious if perhaps this supplement seems to help “more” in “less” symptomatic horses?
[QUOTE=Dune;8213821]
I’m curious if perhaps this supplement seems to help “more” in “less” symptomatic horses?[/QUOTE]
YOu’ll have to explain what you mean by that, I am not sure I follow you?
[QUOTE=Melyni;8214607]
YOu’ll have to explain what you mean by that, I am not sure I follow you?[/QUOTE]
For instance, we have one in the barn that I would call “less symptomatic”. Said horsie has never had shiver like symptoms or difficulty holding up hind feet for farrier, nothing dramatic where you said, “OH yes, absolutely that is PSSM!” However, was always slow to warm up, had amazing lower level dressage show season and then sometimes seemed to “stall out”, finally culminated in some symptoms that had us pull blood to test muscle enzymes and they are definitely not ok. Adjusted diet and work load to keep him moving and things improved quite a bit. There is still a little something holding him back though…and he is now refusing to eat the oil. Just wondering if this supplement might be the ticket.
[QUOTE=Dune;8213821]
I’m curious if perhaps this supplement seems to help “more” in “less” symptomatic horses?[/QUOTE]
I think it may. That is what I have gleaned from vet studies. My mare is certainly in the less symptomatic category. Again, it is not very expensive and it should work within days if it makes a difference. And it is not going to hurt your horse to try.
To the earlier comment about understanding supplement impact, I agree absolutely. Do your research and do not count on your vet to assess supplements, as most are not especially educated about nutrition or supplements. My vet is used to recommending Purina products, period. She thought I was crazy feeding a whole foods diet, but the proof is in the horse. I work with an equine nutritionist and also use Feed XL to track intake.
FYI, acetyl L-carnitine is also safe for human intake.
[QUOTE=Dune;8214932]
For instance, we have one in the barn that I would call “less symptomatic”. Said horsie has never had shiver like symptoms or difficulty holding up hind feet for farrier, nothing dramatic where you said, “OH yes, absolutely that is PSSM!” However, was always slow to warm up, had amazing lower level dressage show season and then sometimes seemed to “stall out”, finally culminated in some symptoms that had us pull blood to test muscle enzymes and they are definitely not ok. Adjusted diet and work load to keep him moving and things improved quite a bit. There is still a little something holding him back though…and he is now refusing to eat the oil. Just wondering if this supplement might be the ticket.[/QUOTE]
Ah okay, now I get a clearer idea.
Firstly, shivers like symptoms, e.g. trouble holding up the foot etc, are not symptoms of EPSM/PSSM, they are symptoms of Shivers and that is a totally different disorder. The horse can have both Shivers (a neurological disorder) as well as EPSM/PSSM (a muscle metabolism disorder) but the two should not be confused.
SO if the horse has classical EPSM/PSSM symptoms, eg. slow to warm up, stiffness, muscle cramping etc, and also shows elevated muscle enzymes in response to exercise, then yes I’d say the horse most probably has one of the two variants of glycogen storage myopathy. If you have adjusted the diet as far as the horse will allow then it might well be worth trying the ALC and seeing if the supplement helps to alleviate the symptoms. It’s not that expensive, and it will do no harm even if they do not have EPSM/PSSM and thus is worth trying.
Good Luck
MW
[QUOTE=piedmontfields;8215256]
I think it may. That is what I have gleaned from vet studies. My mare is certainly in the less symptomatic category. Again, it is not very expensive and it should work within days if it makes a difference. And it is not going to hurt your horse to try.
To the earlier comment about understanding supplement impact, I agree absolutely. Do your research and do not count on your vet to assess supplements, as most are not especially educated about nutrition or supplements. My vet is used to recommending Purina products, period. She thought I was crazy feeding a whole foods diet, but the proof is in the horse. I work with an equine nutritionist and also use Feed XL to track intake.
FYI, acetyl L-carnitine is also safe for human intake.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for sharing your experiences, I appreciate that. Yes, even when I spoke with Dr. Valberg at U of M, she recommended Purina products over my “whole foods” approach. And when I started a thread awhile back about it, I got the comment that diet would be better than what I’m doing. But I crunched the numbers, and while it would make my life a whole lot easier, I’m still not convinced it’s the way to go.
[QUOTE=Melyni;8215852]Ah okay, now I get a clearer idea.
Firstly, shivers like symptoms, e.g. trouble holding up the foot etc, are not symptoms of EPSM/PSSM, they are symptoms of Shivers and that is a totally different disorder. The horse can have both Shivers (a neurological disorder) as well as EPSM/PSSM (a muscle metabolism disorder) but the two should not be confused.
SO if the horse has classical EPSM/PSSM symptoms, eg. slow to warm up, stiffness, muscle cramping etc, and also shows elevated muscle enzymes in response to exercise, then yes I’d say the horse most probably has one of the two variants of glycogen storage myopathy. If you have adjusted the diet as far as the horse will allow then it might well be worth trying the ALC and seeing if the supplement helps to alleviate the symptoms. It’s not that expensive, and it will do no harm even if they do not have EPSM/PSSM and thus is worth trying.
Good Luck
MW[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your thoughts, and yes, I understand the differences between the shivers and EPSM/PSSM. I was just giving broad strokes for the general masses here, probably shouldn’t have done that. If you have any other suggestions, I’m open to them. Thanks again.
Melyni–thanks for the report on your informal study.
Now–quick–go write a grant application! 
Melyni, as an ALCAR user, I appreciate you sharing your results as well. I posted my horse’s experience upthread- about two and a half years later, my horse’s leptin resistance continues under good control, to the point that my vet told me to stop paying her to run blood tests to check his leptin levels and just call her if he looks fat. 
I was skeptical about starting on it, despite my vet’s recommendation, because of the lack of scientific support. Informal or otherwise, anybody looking at the effects in a scientific way gets my thumbs up.
1 Like
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8216097]
Melyni–thanks for the report on your informal study.
Now–quick–go write a grant application! :D[/QUOTE]
Oh my, a grant application… I am trying to get one of the Universities interested in this project, since they have the man power and the equipment and the lab facilities to do a far better job than I can, on my own with just my trusty Abaxis!
Of course the sticking point is, as always, money!
MW
[QUOTE=Dune;8216041]
Thank you for sharing your experiences, I appreciate that. Yes, even when I spoke with Dr. Valberg at U of M, she recommended Purina products over my “whole foods” approach. And when I started a thread awhile back about it, I got the comment that diet would be better than what I’m doing. But I crunched the numbers, and while it would make my life a whole lot easier, I’m still not convinced it’s the way to go.
Hmm, what numbers did you crunch? As in, how did you decide that your diet was better?
Did you have the ingredients analysed or did you use the nutrient tables?
How did you balance the minerals and how did you know which and how to change?
I ask because I am interested to know what is behind the “whole Foods Diet” thingy, and how people work out just what should be in a whole foods diet!
I work in this area and I know the computer time and brain power plus the cost of analysis that goes into formulating a ration and I wonder just how you guys do it.
MW
[QUOTE=Melyni;8217354]
Hmm, what numbers did you crunch? As in, how did you decide that your diet was better? Did you have the ingredients analysed or did you use the nutrient tables?How did you balance the minerals and how did you know which and how to change? MW[/QUOTE]
Well, I’ll offer my experience, although I am not Dune 
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I worked with an equine nutritionist to get guidance on options. I wanted a whole food diet that was low in sugar and higher in fat, and with sufficient protein and energy for a fairly hard-working horse who is a hard keeper. I also elected to avoid soybeans as an ingredient. Some of the reason I changed diets is that my whole boarding barn changed their feeding approach. I did not crunch numbers personally, although I did test hay and gather some inputs (blood tests).
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Why is the diet better for my horse? IME, it is because we have 1. No more PSSM symptoms. 2. Good weight/muscle and a gleaming coat, and most of all, 3. No more hoof abscesses! It is quite possible that another diet could achieve these outcomes, but I am happy that this is working.
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I do use tables (Feed XL) to track her diet.
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If I had serious concerns about deficiencies, I would do more monitoring through blood tests, but I am satisfied with feeding a basic vit/min supplement in addition to her whole food rations. Some folks who have more control over their hay source or who are dealing with major deficiencies due to their environment will do a customized vit/min supplement.
Hope that is helpful.
Thanks, interesting. I hope others who feed a ‘whole food diet’ will also chime in.
Maybe I should start another thread asking this question.
MW
