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Action on the mouth when a horse is "on the bit"?? Uncomfortable?

Dressage
#1

Hi everyone, I’ve been thinking a lot about this, and can’t figure it out. Take a look at these two pictures.
https://ibb.co/GQqMYB1
https://ibb.co/7KJ9ghs

My question is, WHY would a horse WANT to seek contact, and be on or close to the vertical (yes, as a result of hind end engagement):wink: when the bit action depresses the tongue and/or pushes on the bars when their head is positioned this way?
Take a look at the grey in the second link. I know this horse is behind the vertical, but even if its nose was in a more appropriate position (vertical, or a little in front), the action of the hand would still be perpendicular to the bars and tongue. The first link shows an xray of a french link when the reins are engaged and a horses poll is flexed, showing a complete restriction of the tongue that looks insanely uncomfortable. I feel like this would completely restrict swallowing.

In comparison, the chestnut pictured with its head down and out (something you might see in L&L) pulls the bit into the corners of the mouth “the action of the hand is parallel to the tongue and bars”. This seems 100x more comfortable for the horse.

Any explanation? I know the front end is a result of the hind end… but lets assume the horse is engaging properly behind, WHY would they want to seek and maintain a contact (other than the Long and Low positioning) that depresses their tongue or bars? It seems like this completion of the “circle of energy” would result in discomfort or pain.

#2

I read something once from Martin Black that said that having the appropriate head carriage didn’t mean the horse was actually engaged. That at any placement of the head and neck, the horse can actually be driving from behind.

So with that thought, when you allow the horse to move up under itself in the way that specific horse was designed, the hands are simply there to be used when needed. There should be no pressure on the bars or tongue at that point.

The x-ray also shows why 3 links are not the answer to all problems for certain horses and why ports were designed. Some horse do dislike so much “even” pressure and would prefer a ported bit or even a common snaffle. Many bits were designed, IMO, to make US more comfortable and to help quicken training.

looking at bridle horses, and I mean real deal vaquero bridle horses, are incredible athletes and really know how to use themselves. This was created through time and feel. Those horses started out in a snaffle or bosal (depending on who you talk to), and then slowly emerged after 7 years or so into a solid bridle horse. In dressage many steps are skipped or run over quickly, because if you actually study the pyramid that was designed for the discipline, there’s no way that a young horse should be able to properly carry itself in such a short amount of time. When people miss these steps, or can look at picture over function, you start seeing horses that are incredibly behind the vertical or simply CANT reach down because they’ve never been able to.

so in short, proper training does allow the horse to have proper carriage (for ITS conformation) very comfortably with our hands simply helping if the horse gets lost or unsure.

this is my humble opinion on the matter and in no way accurate. Excited to see others thoughts. Great question!

7 Likes
#3

This … :yes:

totally agree with the comment on the 3 link bits aka French links. It really depends on the horse but many youngsters that I’ve worked with find them uncomfortable. I prefer a single jointed bit used with a giving hand, spongy fingers and lots of hind end strengthening work.

Also, your comment on Vaquero horses is true and should also be true in dressage training. But as we know, sadly is not. Too many steps missed in the interest of saving time.

2 Likes
#4

While ‘acting on’ the bars, the corners of the mouth or the tongue might all sound painful… we have always been working toward a sympathetic contact that is more like holding hands then a death grip or slap in the face. I like the comment that I will rewrite as ‘proper head carriage for its training and conformation’.

‘Comfortable for the horse’ is important to me so that we can have a partnership. When my horse was first started she would get tired and the L&L stretches with her nose stuck out helped her relax. Now she does them rounder, but still low after collected work. But a comfortable bit is me not hanging on her and her not hanging on me. Why should she seek the contact? Holding hands gently is reassuring and more comfortable then occasional high fives or grabs. In my lesson yesterday we collected the trot by me tightening my core…wow, no need for hands at all. I can get downward transitions by stopping my motion and don’t need to pull on the reins. This didn’t come overnight but by continued attention to all the aids, not just the reins.

Where you place the horses head, or where the horse places it’s head can be determined by what is comfortable for them. And what YOU make comfortable. If you allow them to stretch and give no other aids ( and nothing distracts them) they will stretch. Then you gather the reins, add leg and they know their head should come up because previously you kept shortening the reins till they brought their head up. Where you RELEASED the pressure and made it comfortable for them is where they will try to stay. Of course exhaustion, tension or conformation could alter this… so could draw reins, martingale and other gear.

Keep in mind training means a lot, racehorses lean on the bit for balance, stock horses work on little to no contact. And they learn all this without reading a book or understanding human language (for the most part). Interested to see what others think.

4 Likes
#5

the long and low chestnut is also stretching out his back, neck, poll, etc… but the real question is how should the horse feel when they are learning self carriage and how do we prepare them to learn this.

IMO, strengthening the hind end, suppling the jaw, poll, neck. Stretching down but also learning to push from the hind end. Very basic lateral work to achieve suppleness and also strength. All this lightens the front end so that when the horse gradually begins to bring his head and neck up, flex from the poll, and “raise his wither”, he can feel comfort in his mouth.

I vary the work to achieve all of this. Hill work for the hind end, back and general balance. Arena work. A little cavaletti work, some low jumping. In hand work including the flexions of the jaw. Lunging work with tons of transitions. My mare is 6 and is ridden from my core. I have only to sponge my fingers once in a while to remind her to relax her mouth and settle into the feel. My leg hangs like a wet wash rag and the calf functions only when I need it.

I will continue this work throughout her life and the result should be she gets lighter and more powerful…

1 Like
#6

Right. Have a look around here for starters: http://www.sustainabledressage.net/c…collection.php

Then also consider these random thoughts in no particular order:

Horses are born knowing how to collect. It is a survival requirement of being a flight animal. There is no shortage of images and video of wild, untouched horses going “on the bit”. Collection is every bit as much a state of mind as it is mechanical.

Ridden horses are not taught collection per se, as they already know how to do it, but throughout training and strength conditioning are taught to offer this state of being on command, for no reason other than being asked (not for fight or flight), for an undetermined length of time, whilst bearing a rider and the tack required so the rider can stay on board comfortably.

Bits are only as uncomfortable as the hands that hold them. Cast your mind back to all the times you’ve reached for someone’s hand (help you up from the ground, steady you, handshake, etc.), some people have weak grips, some firm, and some so firm it borders pain – but a hand hold that is just right, just firm enough to be supportive and helpful, but not so firm to be uncomfortable, is a wonderful thing. As too should our hands in our horses’s mouths. A supportive hold on the reins can transmit comfort and support, can teach concepts, adjust way of going, and indicate what is desired behavior or not.

The photos shown, and all still photos, are just a moment in time. Working with a horse is a dynamic conversation. Attempting to develop understanding on what is for us humans a complex topic (its quite simple for the horses) by examining still photos is not typically productive.

In your post you describe what you feel looks most comfortable, but how do you know? Some horses prefer tongue pressure, some prefer bar pressure, some prefer to support with their lips, some prefer a combination, some don’t want pressure at all. You are attempting to start a dialogue about comfort, but you are determining what seems comfortable to you. Until you are a horse, you really can’t say, and it’s really a disservice to yourself to have blanket thinking.

Horses are asked to do all sorts of uncomfortable things on our behalf, and they learn to do it, for the most part willingly, because they are one of, if not the most forgiving and generous animals God ever placed on this earth.

9 Likes
#7

" On the bit" is an English mistranslation that should really be “on the aids.”

A finished horse should not be leaning on the bit and the rider should not be pulling, whether that is dressage or western. Much of how the horse carries itself will be due to the body balance of the rider. Note that even jumpers want you to turn off the outside aids rather than pull around with inside rein because the inside rein would unbalance a galloping horse. I say “even jumpers” because that discipline is very pragmatic :slight_smile: and can include having to rate a hot horse more emphatically than in dressage, but they still understand that you don’t hang on the face and you ride off your seat as much as you can ( why the distinguish so many variations of light seat full seat etc which affect the horse’s balance).

I can testify that horses will learn to stretch to the bit and take light steady contact if ridden in a way that encourages them.

As far as bad riding and training in any discipline, well that’s another story. But don’t conflate the ideals and goals of educated riding with hamfisted riders who don’t understand what they are doing. Lots of bad riders in every discipline force a headset at the expense of everything else.

4 Likes
#8

Interesting conversation. Just a note about how dressage training “skips steps”. You say the Bridle or Vaquero horses emerge 7 or so years later a finished horse - one who knows how to carry himself and also carry a REALLY big spade bit. (Not a complaint. The bits a carried by the horse not abused by the rider…). Here is a reminder that in Dressage, horses must be at least 7 to compete at GP… so, perhaps not so many steps are “skipped” - at least by the successful trainers.

3 Likes
#9

7 is for PSG/Inter.
Higher is 8 years of age.

The bit in the Xray doesn’t seem to be well fitted at all; hanging too low and « on the bit »? I doubt so… Last time I checked, no one were taking Xrays while riding.
So… Pictured while someone was pulling the reins of a horse at stand still?

3 Likes
#10

Thanks for all the responses so far, very interesting.

Regardless, of if half a pound of pressure on each rein is initiated by the xrayers, or initiated by the horse U/S as a result of completing the circle of energy, half a pound is half a pound, and it will have the same effect on the tongue/bars, no? Hind end engagement will not change that half a pound effect I’m assuming?

To everyone:
Lets say a horse, as a result of active engagement, SOFTLY seeks the bit. This is the feeling you want in dressage yes? A soft connection. YES a horse can collect by itself, but I am specifically asking about maintaining a contact like dressage riders must.

Either way, I’m just wondering how “soft” soft is before it impedes the horse from swallowing. Can a horse swallow while softly putting .25 pounds in each rein (thus, pushing the bit on the tongue a little)?
If they cant, does learning to reach for a contact become a form of just dealing with minor discomfort? I know it is reassuring in other areas, I’m just talking about the mouth. Do they just have to figure out how to cope with not swallowing when they initiate soft bit contact?

I’m not talking about the rider pulling on the reins, I understand the circle of energy that naturally end with the horses head into a near vertical position, and for dressage riders, this means a SOFT pushing into the bit so that communication can be maintained… My question is WHY do horses want to softly push into the bit if it restricts their ability to swallow? Maybe for the horse, this is weighed against the comfort of feeling the rider, and the latter wins?

Here to learn, in no way am I against any of this. :slight_smile: Keep the responses coming!

#11

I can’t imagine the bit being comfortable if the ability to swallow is completely restricted, but I think then the horse would exhibit gaping and chomping.

if a horse is comfortable I would then think that the horse would easily come into correct collection rather than fighting contact by any sort of evasion.

and since my last reply was talked about where dressage riders take time to get their horses appropriately collected (well the top trainers anyways), I have to make it clear that MOST riders are NOT elite. While your average ammy can certainly take their time to get their horses moving and collecting the right way, many folks do not go this route or are oblivious to it. It was by no means an insult but simply an observation. You see it very clearly in western disciplines more so than others if I have to be honest. My extended time in both disciplines have shown this.

2 Likes
#12

Nope.

Horses adjust to self carriage when hind end is engaged, and so they relief pressure to what’s comfortable to them. So no. Pulling on reins for the sake of it, especially if the horse hasn’t yield is not the same as doing so while riding.
A constant fluid contact that the horse take is not the same as reins being pulled on.

If the bit is ill fitted, the pressure will be off and cause pain. So no again.

To everyone:
Lets say a horse, as a result of active engagement, SOFTLY seeks the bit. This is the feeling you want in dressage yes? A soft connection. YES a horse can collect by itself, but I am specifically asking about maintaining a contact like dressage riders must.

Either way, I’m just wondering how “soft” soft is before it impedes the horse from swallowing. Can a horse swallow while softly putting .25 pounds in each rein (thus, pushing the bit on the tongue a little)?
If they cant, does learning to reach for a contact become a form of just dealing with minor discomfort? I know it is reassuring in other areas, I’m just talking about the mouth. Do they just have to figure out how to cope with not swallowing when they initiate soft bit contact?

It depends on the horse and if horses were unable to swallow while being ridden, we’d be having much more problems.

Where do you take your .25 pound from? That is not soft contact, it is no contact.

I’m not talking about the rider pulling on the reins, I understand the circle of energy that naturally end with the horses head into a near vertical position, and for dressage riders, this means a SOFT pushing into the bit so that communication can be maintained… My question is WHY do horses want to softly push into the bit if it restricts their ability to swallow? Maybe for the horse, this is weighed against the comfort of feeling the rider, and the latter wins?

Here to learn, in no way am I against any of this. :slight_smile: Keep the responses coming!

Because it mostly doesn’t.

http://www.eurodressage.com/2019/04/…ts-and-bridles

4 Likes
#13

This article was the answer I was looking for. Horses CAN swallow when the reins are engaged.
I found it interesting that the Myler ported bit had the LOWEST swallowing frequency, because they are all about tongue freedom. I use one but now I’m second guessing…

“The reduced swallowing frequency with the Myler bit may have been due to physical interaction between the bit and the oral structures, leading to restriction of jaw or tongue motion, stimulation of sensory receptors that inhibited swallowing or reduction in salivation.”
This is the opposite of what the Myler bits tout… Says it is a correctional ported barrel

#14

One thing I don’t think has been mentioned, is that the tongue is not static in terms of how soft it is. In that x-ray, I imagine a horse was at rest, possibly sedated, and someone pulled back on the bit, indenting a very soft/relaxed tongue. Now when I’m running or probably when riding, I hold some tension (not necessarily negative tension), so there is more tone in the tongue. I imagine a horse would be the same when he is moving forward energetically enough to go “on the bit”. Hence, more contact is possible before the tongue is squashed. I can tone my tongue and push on it quite firmly with the side of my finger, and it’s not uncomfortable, so I can see how a horse would take a semi-firm feel of the bit while working and not be uncomfortable. Hopefully we are all taking walk breaks and changing postures (e.g. lengthening, stretchy trot) frequently in our training, so that the horse is not “on the bit” in the same position for long periods of time.

3 Likes
#15

I too was going to say contact doesn’t necessarily impede swallowing. :wink:

I’m also going to point out that no matter how steady a rider is, and no matter how independent their hands are it is not possible to maintain that light contact perfectly without the horse taking up their end. As the horse approaches that light contact they will learn that taking up their end both creates a steadier connection. The strong tongue muscle can absorb the tiny variations in the contact and allow the deliberate (often unconscious on the rider’s part) signals to become clearer.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

1 Like
#16

Unless the photo of the grey, is turned, I would not call that “on the bit”. I would call it BTV.

#17

Indeed,
I’m going to go out on a limb here for COTH and say that if most horses are trained like this below image, there isn’t any need for anatomic bridles, complex bits, etc… just an educated rider will suffice. [ATTACH=JSON]{“alt”:“Click image for larger version Name: 20191128_111453328.jpeg Views: 1 Size: 19.3 KB ID: 10525667”,“data-align”:“none”,“data-attachmentid”:“10525667”,“data-size”:“full”}[/ATTACH]

edited to add, it takes a long time to get to this point…

20191128_111453328.jpeg

1 Like
#18

And not jsut a long time. I do not think horses can be trained to that point of self carriage WITHOUT spending some time leaning on the bit and using the rider to find his balance as he develops the strength to carry himself. After all, they naturally go around with more than half their weight on the forehand - not on the haunches as we want!!

1 Like
#19

If a horse is brought along so that his physical and athletic development, are brought along harmoniously he has no need to lean.

2 Likes
#20

I would agree with this. You can use half halts or lateral flexion to get a horse to rebalance but if you start letting the horse hang on your hands or start pulling on his face then you start bad habits that will need to be fixed later. Or never get fixed but affect the lightness of the horse later.

The horse should never lean on your hands.

2 Likes

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