Actual cost(s) of buying overseas vs buying American

[Kyzteke]

This subject has been brought up a number of times on COTH and is obviously an issue of interest for both buyers & breeders.

But I haven’t really seen any mention of actual total costs involved.

So I’d love Buyers to share actual costs incurred in both scenarios.

So that we can be sure we are comparing apples to apples, please include the age/training level (if any) of the horse and stuff like travel fees, agent fees, quarantine/travel fees, etc. in the story.

For instance, if you went to Germany to shop for horses and you saw 20-30 horses in a week and purchased one what did that “one” cost you TOTAL? Compared to say, if you wanted to look at the same number of horses here in the US.

My most recent case was an upper level dressage rider who purchased a 2.5 yr old filly from me. She purchased off of just video(s) and PPE, so her total cost, including board (she purchased on payments) & shipping will end up being about $18-19K.

What would that same amt. get you overseas (total of ALL expenses).

If we are discussing horses in training, let’s just keep it to dressage, to to make it easy. I really don’t know the jumper market well enough to compare.

[SugarAndSpite]

A friends experience - Sent her trainer to the Oldenburg winter mixed sales in Vechta with the specifications of what she wanted. The trainer was close with the auction rider and had three picked out for her before she left for Germany, so they had it worked out what they were willing to bid up to for each one.

She got very lucky hammer price wise because the horse she got was not of “trendy” bloodlines, and was on the small side, but her total cost of horse + import + trainer expenses (trainer expenses were split among one or two other clients) was just under 20k USD. I think she said about 3k of that was trainer expenses.

Another friend just brought home a SUPER gelding last month - I don’t know exactly what she paid but I think her price range was 40-60k Euros. She went with her trainer and looked at a weeks worth of horses. I know it cost her $12,500 to ship him to LAX including all quarantine expenses. He just scored an 85% in the young horse tests. He is by Ampere, not sure of damline.

I was recently looking at a just turned 4 year old mare by Desperados, recently started under saddle, super mover but going for a little cheaper because she was not an easy sell to non pros - very, very hot. I would say besides temperament, her quality was comparable with friend #2s horse. They were asking 20k Euros and I estimated that it would cost me between 10-15k to get her here and through quarantine. X-rays and PPE were already done, so I had not yet investigated that cost.

[Mistysmom]

This will be an interesting thread.

IMO, it depends on what you are looking for. I’ve purchased both dressage and more recently, hunter types in Europe and in my experience, I have found it to be cheaper. In some cases, I was buying bloodlines that were just not readily available here and if they were, it was cost prohibitive for my budget. Every time I purchased overseas, I tried to find what I was looking for here first. Often for up to a year or more.

I think the price you quoted that you sold your 2.5 year old for including shipping is a very good/fair price for a youngster. I don’t think there will be any real savings in buying that young in Germany unless you are looking for specific bloodlines that are just not available here. The savings really kicks in, however, when there is any type of training involved. A well started 3 or 4 year old with talent, and often some show experience, is often cheaper and even more so if your not going through a “dealer”. The other bonus is the $$ saving from not having to fly around all over the country. That really adds up pretty fast!

The last one I purchased was a 4 year old (~1st level training), excellent PPE with clean x-rays and very amateur friendly that was $21,200 (PPE included in price). Importation and quarantine totalled $10,800 and 10% commission $2,120 totalling $34,120 + $100 to ship to farm. $34,220 landed and delivered.

I am, once again, looking for a young, quality youngster WITH show experience and have been concentrating my search here. So far, I have not had any luck because of the very high prices for horses without any show experience. It is frustrating and although I would much prefer to buy here due to convenience, it is very possible that I may buy overseas again…

[NJRider]

Has anyone had an experience where you had a US trainer find you a horse in Europe a certain price range then find out that the trainer doubled or tripled what they paid for the horse overseas and then charged a commission and expenses on top? This is the trainer making some phone calls, not taking the horse home and putting on training to increase value. Is this unethical or just smart selling on the part of the trainer?

[Mistysmom]

[QUOTE=NJRider;7458919]
Has anyone had an experience where you had a US trainer find you a horse in Europe a certain price range then find out that the trainer doubled or tripled what they paid for the horse overseas and then charged a commission and expenses on top? This is the trainer making some phone calls, not taking the horse home and putting on training to increase value. Is this unethical or just smart selling on the part of the trainer?[/QUOTE]

I haven’t personally because I handle all of my purchase transactions directly but I have heard about this quite a bit in fact. I think it’s buyer beware and if you are going to have someone else find you a horse AND handle the business side of the transaction, you better trust them.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=NJRider;7458919]
Has anyone had an experience where you had a US trainer find you a horse in Europe a certain price range then find out that the trainer doubled or tripled what they paid for the horse overseas and then charged a commission and expenses on top? This is the trainer making some phone calls, not taking the horse home and putting on training to increase value. Is this unethical or just smart selling on the part of the trainer?[/QUOTE]

It’s called horse-trading and it’s done all the time…and not just buying/selling horses overseas. I did the same thing myself some years ago. Found a youngster who the owner needed to sell FAST. Had a buyer looking for just such a horse, but I didn’t have it. I knew Buyer was willing to spend at least 2x what the seller wanted for the horse. So I bought it for $X from Seller and sold it 2 days after for $2X.

But for this thread, I’m just curious as to actual, HONEST costs…not a trainer or dealer jacking the price up.

As in all things, the more a person gives up responsibility for a task, the bigger chance there is of them being disappointed in the result.

[netg]

[QUOTE=NJRider;7458919]
Has anyone had an experience where you had a US trainer find you a horse in Europe a certain price range then find out that the trainer doubled or tripled what they paid for the horse overseas and then charged a commission and expenses on top? This is the trainer making some phone calls, not taking the horse home and putting on training to increase value. Is this unethical or just smart selling on the part of the trainer?[/QUOTE]

The trainer buying and importing a horse to resell at a higher dollar amount is expected, I would think. However, you don’t pay a sales commission to the owner of the horse so that part doesn’t make sense.

As far as selling someone else’s horse for more than the owner knows- check out lawsuits against some big names for that!

I know someone who I suspect was taken for an unethical but not illegal ride. Paid trainer to go overseas to shop, trainer found nothing suitable. After the trainer came back to the US someone imported a horse from the same area who is suitable, friend bought the horse from importer and trainer got commission. I suspect trainer saw the horse overseas, encouraged its import, and got a cut of the markup from European price. If it’s purely coincidence, importer deserves the markup, but if it was a conspiracy to make more money off friend… not cool. Also, this horse somehow magically needs extra training rides - yep, too much horse for friend who already hadn’t reached full potential of previous horse but “needed” an import according to the relatively new trainer…

[ChristinaClarLuisa]

I brought a seven-year-old gelding (jumper with a decent show record) over from Germany about two years ago for $32,000 USD, plus $7,500 for shipping and quarantine. My trainer (German guy) sourced him from a small barn through friend-of-a-friend networks. I received and paid the invoice directly. Nice horse, amateur-rideable, looking at a possible GP this Spring (if all stars align.) Very satisfactory experience.

[Blume_Farm]

Two years ago I almost purchased a SPS mare at a mare show. Deal fell through for various reasons, but purchase price would have been 10K Euro. She garnered her SPS status at the mare show, very well bred from a dam line of four SPS mares in a row and in foal to Quaterhall. I was going to leave her in Germany to have a broodmare there to have access to stallions we can’t get here so never investigated import fees. Also, as the deal fell through I never investigated veterinary PPE fees in Germany.

[NJRider]

“The trainer buying and importing a horse to resell at a higher dollar amount is expected, I would think. However, you don’t pay a sales commission to the owner of the horse so that part doesn’t make sense.”

To clarify, trainer does not import the horses. When trainer gets a client (“I want a PSG horse and can spend $55K”) trainer calls agent in Europe, finds for example a $23K horse, sells to client for the $55K therabouts. Client also pays trainer’s expenses, import, commission etc.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;7459861]
Two years ago I almost purchased a SPS mare at a mare show. Deal fell through for various reasons, but purchase price would have been 10K Euro. She garnered her SPS status at the mare show, very well bred from a dam line of four SPS mares in a row and in foal to Quaterhall. I was going to leave her in Germany to have a broodmare there to have access to stallions we can’t get here so never investigated import fees. Also, as the deal fell through I never investigated veterinary PPE fees in Germany.[/QUOTE]

Ok, broodmare prices are something I’m pretty familiar with, so this is an excellent example to use as a comparison.

At today’s exchange rate, the price of the mare would have been $13,757 USD. I know mares must be quarantined; so I’m guessing about $8000 for transport & quarantine (not counting shipping from the quarantine center to your farm). Does that sound about right? Plus another (total guesstimate) $1000 for a PPE.

Assuming you were purchasing this mare mostly for breeding vs riding, you did not need to travel to ride her (either here or in Germany). Also we are assuming the mare was of an age to produce several more foals, and was a proven producer herself.

So that would have been about $23,000 USD.

Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems to me that one could find a mare of equal quality (perhaps not 4 gens. of SPS, but certainly 3) & production record here in the States for that amt.

The only exception would be if the mare was in foal to a stallion who simply wasn’t available in the US due to advancing age and/or sub-par frozen. Like a Rubinstein or Rohdiamant.

Am I wrong in my calculations?

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=SugarAndSpite;7458353]
Sent her trainer to the Oldenburg winter mixed sales in Vechta with the specifications of what she wanted. The trainer was close with the auction rider and had three picked out for her before she left for Germany, so they had it worked out what they were willing to bid up to for each one. [/QUOTE]

This is another issue I find interesting. I think most of us will agree that the biggest single challenge facing North American buyers is the vast distances involved in horse shopping. (well…the 2nd biggest challenge…I think #1 is the lack of good young horse riders here in NA, but that’s another thread).

Americans seem to buy with confidence and little hesitation at the European, registry-sponsored auctions, even when they haven’t seen/ridden the horses “in person,” yet here in NA they stay away in droves.

Why do you think that is?

In the European auctions the PPE & rads are already done prior to the horse’s acceptance into the auction, is that correct?

Obviously for this to be profitable to the BREEDER (or seller/trainer/whoever) after they factor in travel expenses, the auction house’s cut, etc. they need to expect to get a good price for their animal.

Yet (so far) sale prices at these auctions have not garnered these results.

Thoughts as to why? Solutions?

As a buyer, what would convince you to attend such an auction with a serious intent to buy? As a seller what would convince you that you might get an acceptable price for your animal?

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=NJRider;7459972]
“The trainer buying and importing a horse to resell at a higher dollar amount is expected, I would think. However, you don’t pay a sales commission to the owner of the horse so that part doesn’t make sense.”

To clarify, trainer does not import the horses. When trainer gets a client (“I want a PSG horse and can spend $55K”) trainer calls agent in Europe, finds for example a $23K horse, sells to client for the $55K therabouts. Client also pays trainer’s expenses, import, commission etc.[/QUOTE]

I know this happens all the time, but it just dumbfounds me that so many buyers are so - uh, unsavvy, and that so many trainers/agents are so gladly willing to shaft an unsuspecting client this way.

I mean, on a $23K horse, a 20% commission would be $4600. Even if the trainer needed to pay the agent in Europe an equal amount, the commissions shouldn’t top $9200. But in the above scenario, the buyer has paid $32,000 MORE than the actual selling price - or almost 250% in commissions alone. And she still has to pay the trainer’s travel expenses, along with importation/quarantine fees, etc.

Just wow.

[Mistysmom]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7460671]
Americans seem to buy with confidence and little hesitation at the European, registry-sponsored auctions, even when they haven’t seen/ridden the horses “in person,” yet here in NA they stay away in droves.

Why do you think that is? [/QUOTE]

I think a lot has to do with the historical connotation of auctions in this country. They were mostly to offload broken down or old horses destined for meat. Germans are masters when it comes to marketing and they have managed to make the whole auction experience very “upscale” and they have been very successful at it for many, many years. Even when the numbers are down, they are still a large horse sales venue relatively speaking.

Regarding x-rays at the auction… they are available on all horses although there are not as many views as many Americans would choose to do. They give a good idea though.

Regarding profitability to the breeder who puts their horses in the auction; there are minimum bids are the overall cost of raising horses is way cheaper in Germany. Also, the breeders’ idea of profit is not that same as over here. One can breed a mare and raise a foal in Germany with top of the line care for half of what it costs in America.

In order for auctions to be as successful here, they need to “up the bar” and in doing so, will attract buyers from other countries. It will take time but once the sold horses start to make a name for themselves later in their careers, people will talk about it (if it’s advertised :-). Once that happens, everything else will fall into place….

As a buyer, the auction is all about convenience and some fun. It is not always about price since often times the horse goes for more than its value if two or more people have money and also bid on it. This is when buying at an auction can actually work against you in the pricing department.

As a seller, I’m pretty sure that they can buy back their horse if it doesn’t get the price wanted…. not sure exactly how that works though.

[Mistysmom]

Actually, a TOP broodmare that still has many foals left in her career will cost in the $20,000 or more range. The reason we have so many cheap mares offered here is that they usually have something with them that is not as in demand (not easy to breed, produce/breeding history/record, older age, bloodlines, performance career, etc.). The other reason for the lower prices we see is that we have too many mares available due to everyone downsizing and scaling back their breeding operations. It is very expensive to breed in America when you rely on selling the foal before it hits 3 and needs to start it’s under saddle career. Unfortunately, many of these mares are just poor - mediocre at best and this also brings the prices down.

The people who are buying mares in Germany are doing so for the specific bloodlines that may, or may not be readily available here and for access to stallions that aren’t available with frozen semen. That is why they pay the $23K (and often times much more) for a broodmare.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Mistysmom;7458722]
This will be an interesting thread.

IMO, it depends on what you are looking for.

I think the price you quoted that you sold your 2.5 year old for including shipping is a very good/fair price for a youngster.[/QUOTE]

This was a very high quality youngster. I’ve posted her video several times here on COTH (and elsewhere) and everyone agrees that she is very, very nice. Very nice pedigree, but not uber/duber-fancy. IOW, her sire is not in the WBFSH ranking (although her damsire was for many years) & her dam has not produced any approved stallions.

She has no show record past her foal inspection, nor does her dam. She is her dam’s first foal. Her sire is still actively showing successfully at (I think) I-1 and moving up; He is still too young to be proven as a sire of UL competitors. HIS pedigree is outstanding w/his dam being one of the most highly decorated mares in Germany.

On the mare’s (this filly’s dam) side, all the stallions were successful GP competitors.

Again, just giving all this info for the sake of comparison.

Just last week I showed her video to a GP rider who lives close by and who had been shopping for a youngster for herself.

Well, she was pretty ticked off that she had missed out!! Said she would have “snapped her up if I could have afforded her.” When I told her what I’d sold the filly for she was even more and said I sold the filly for WAY too cheap!!

In fact, she showed me the youngster she had just purchased…one year older and very, very lightly started. She paid $35,000!! That doesn’t include any of the extras (PPE, shipping costs, etc. etc); that is just the purchase price.

Now here is the punch line: this filly had been advertised for over a year!!:eek: The “fancy” video that had everyone ooooing & ahhhing was taken in June and I sold her in mid-Dec.

I updated her ad regularly (on the most popular site for WBs), & ran ads in the California Dressage Society newsletter.

So, short of calling every member of the USDF individually, I really don’t know what else I could have done.

And not sure where everyone is looking, but obviously NOT in the same place I was adverting. VERY frustrating…and I’m sure my case as a breeder/seller is not unique.

In fact, to one of the posters on this thread (you know who you are): she would have been exactly what you were looking for, including being tall (she will be about 16.3 when she’s done).

Now, don’t get me wrong… I am very happy with the Seller she went to…but it wouldn’t have hurt my feelings at all to have gotten another $3,000-8,000 for her. :winkgrin:

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Mistysmom;7460760]
I think a lot has to do with the historical connotation of auctions in this country. [/QUOTE]

Agree…but much depends on what sort of auction we are talking about.

New Holland is one thing, but Fastig-Tipton/Keenland are a whole 'nother deal.

People DO come to those auctions from all over the world and are prepared to spend serious money.

Also, before they shot themselves in the foot, the Arab auctions back in the late '70’s-'80’s were similar to what you describe; “EVENTS” filled with loads of meet 'n greets, music, drinking, etc. etc.

Buyers were treated royally and they were expected to spend royally!

So not sure how to change that image for the warmbloods/sporthorse market here in America.

Maybe the bottom line is simply that we don’t have the market (buyer-wise) here in America that Europe has?

[Kyzteke]

@Mistysmom;7460760

Also, the breeders’ idea of profit is not that same as over here. One can breed a mare and raise a foal in Germany with top of the line care for half of what it costs in America.

Is this really true?

I’d be very interested in hearing from some of our German breeders as to what it costs to raise a youngster from conception to age 3, for example.

I mean, we have more land, so I would think stuff like hay, grain, pasture would be less expensive here in the States. No?

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Mistysmom;7460768]
Actually, a TOP broodmare that still has many foals left in her career will cost in the $20,000 or more range. [/QUOTE]

Again, I agree. But was the mare you were looking at a proven top broodie?

[winter]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7460849]
Is this really true?

I’d be very interested in hearing from some of our German breeders as to what it costs to raise a youngster from conception to age 3, for example.

I mean, we have more land, so I would think stuff like hay, grain, pasture would be less expensive here in the States. No?[/QUOTE]

I think it is true. Horses are a spectator sport and an industry there. The industry part is the big thing. You can make a career out of horses, there are university programs for horse related fields. There are more services, more access to more people and more amenities in much a much smaller area. It’s the economy of scale, there is simply access to far more riders, feed agents, stallions, auctions, vets ect all in a very small area. Although I think feed is more expensive there, the style of management is somewhat diferent. Horses are raised and treated like other livestock with limited handling, farrier, vet until they are started under saddle. Land is also often family land, inherited and existing as a horse property for hundreds of years. In NA that rarely exists, people are looking at purchasing land from scratch or having a huge mortgage, even though land is less expensive. Also climate is much more favorable to year round grazing in a lot of places there and less variable place to place (again smaller geographic area). In NA, places with year round grazing are also where land is most expensive, much of our land is too dry or has a bitter winter or is far from any amenities…ect… Just my impression of the differences.
I would be curious to hear real numbers from people too!

As far as the discussion above, as others have noted, if you want a horse with show experience it is just so much cheaper to get one there. Shows are on weekends, they are cheap, you can stay at home and just trailer in for the day. All of this means that a horse can get so much more experience, exposure and miles there than one can here. As soon as someone starts campaigning a young horse in north america, their costs are astronomical and those costs are passed on to the buyers.