I think the Fastig-Tipton/Keenland auction you are referring to is a TB venue. If so TB’s have always attracted a world wide crowd and it is a completely different market from the riding horse world. I don’t think we have any sport horse auctions that attract buyers globally.
Agree we do not have the market over here…
It will be interesting to hear others reasons… Horses are an industry and part of their culture whereas here they are more a luxury item. Most are treated like livestock and not “pets”. Horses are kept in a more natural way - outside on pasture for much of the year and then brought inside in large groups. There is less of an individual connection in many cases.
Prices vary amongst their foals too…. good foals sell for top dollar, lesser ones for much less. There is a huge difference in pricing compared to here. It is not unusual to find a foal offered for 3,000 EUR. They may not be a top foal but they may be just average foals. A top foal can go for over 20,000 EUR. We don’t see that huge difference here. MAny breeders expect to get the same (within range) regardless of the overall quality. Just my observations.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7460862]
Again, I agree. But was the mare you were looking at a proven top broodie?[/QUOTE]
I’m not looking for any broodmares at this time but am aware of the general pricing for them.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7460849]
Is this really true?
I’d be very interested in hearing from some of our German breeders as to what it costs to raise a youngster from conception to age 3, for example.
I mean, we have more land, so I would think stuff like hay, grain, pasture would be less expensive here in the States. No?[/QUOTE]
my broodmares are boarded, so i pay a fix amount per month, depending of age and with/without foal aside.
average 200 euro p.m. = 2400 euros p.y.
add ferriar (average of 30 euros per horse/8 week rhythm) and deworming, injections etc (200-300 euros per year/per horse)
add breeding fee and gas/UPS (if the stallion is within 100/200km from home i pick up fresh semen myself in order to avoid overnight delivery and inseminate semen within few hours from collection - that sure supports fertility and reduces costs and efforts)
we inseminate our mares ourselves, thus, vet is only required to check follicles or pregnancies.
we usually have a tiny pony stallion in our barn to do part of that job for us - that helps saving costs.
we KNOW our mares well and know how to read them - that, too, avoids unnescessary vet bills in any case.
vet:
i had a foal last year with a severe eye injury that required two times critical
eye surgery at the nearby telgte vet clinic/horse hospital. foal was running the risk of loosing the eye. timing (and i m e a n speed!) was essential.
a day later would have been too late.
mare&foal spent 4 weeks in telgte.
i paid 3.000 euros, just to give you an idea.
the surgeries were worth it, the foal is fine, if you didn’t know you wouldn’t recognize anything in the eye anymore, just a lightest shade left which continues to fade.
foal sold in due cause with the buyer fully aware of the facts, no problems at all.
transparency sells.
what i am saying is:
the location of my mare barn is ideal with respect to infrastructural set up.
everything is nearby and well within an hour of reach. (the above mentioned foal would have been lost otherwise.)
“nearby” however does include stallion owners, inspection facilities for mare and foal shows, horse shows etc - things i consider the major premis to entertain reasonable horsebreeding as i travel around and get to see and evaluate horses in person. i make my own breeding decisions depending on what i see and consider useful myself.
note:
the highest priced stallion is not necessarily the one most useful for your mare.
the unheard of less spectacular guy in the background might be of much better impact. and usually is less expensive.
of course i fail, too, but more important is to make the right decisions in the majority and sums of decisions and that includes management of the young horse, too:
severe decision to cull - what horse is not worth being raised but rather sold cheap&early?
what filly would i love to keep but if the price is right still need to sell in order to fund the others?
i do not raise colts as i figure it is not worth it, no matter what quality.
in case of a super quality colt being raised as a stallion prospect the procedure to professionally train and prepare for stallion licensing process starts young age two. it is an entire different world of it’s own and since i know the system well i leave this part in the hands of others to their own luck and fortune.
i still benefit from the system since i visit preselections trials and get to see many offspring which -again- helps making breeding decisions:
chose a stallion by his get, not by his own appearance, no matter how flashy.
yet, i do choose young and unproven stallions as i did in the case of benetton dream, laudabilis, sarkozy, don frederic (to name a few). so far i was lucky but the odds to fail are tremendous.
i mount&train my young horses myself after work (315 euros per month in the barn nearby).
my work, my time, my effort.
that keeps cost low and sure helps getting to know your horses better.
major profit!
i know my mares inside out and by the time i turn a three year old filly into the nearby barn for mounting&training i have a very good idea about their charcater, strengthes and weaknesses as i deal with my foals from the first day on. i learn from every filly under saddle and that helps making the right breeding decisions for the future.
but more important:
it helps avoid the wrong breeding decisions for the future as those are the expensive ones.
thus, logical and major decision to follow:
what horse is worth to keep and invest in further?
what professional trainer?
what horse is being sold as a riding horse without further (expensive) professional training?
i know these trainers/riders having spent a lot of time with each of them through the years, having trained with them or ridden their horses in their barns. i trust them.
these are necessary long term decisions to leverage and upgrade my breeding program to the possible best.
cheapest breeding conditions don’t help if breeding decisisons are wrong.
having bred the wrong horse is expensive.
keeping the wrong horse is economic suicide.
education is priceless.
s i z e doesn’t matter.
density does.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7460849]
Is this really true?
I’d be very interested in hearing from some of our German breeders as to what it costs to raise a youngster from conception to age 3, for example.
I mean, we have more land, so I would think stuff like hay, grain, pasture would be less expensive here in the States. No?[/QUOTE]
Well I did breed and raise foals in Germany for many years. I did not live like FannieMae in a very popular area for horsebreeding, but rather in the outback… Advantage was that in fact land and feed costs are lower than in more popular areas, a huge disadvantage was that it was nearly impossible to sell a foal. People who want to buy foals stay in their area to minimize costs, and they can, because there are plenty of foals…
And the prizes on the foal market in Germany do not reflect the actual costs of the foals right now. Yes you get very cheap and maybe stilll high quality foals in Germany right now, but this is due to the horrible situation on the foal market… not the the costs of raising them…
[QUOTE=fannie mae;7460981]
my broodmares are boarded, so i pay a fix amount per month, depending of age and with/without foal aside.
average 200 euro p.m. = 2400 euros p.y.
add ferriar (average of 30 euros per horse/8 week rhythm) and deworming, injections etc (200-300 euros per year/per horse)
.[/QUOTE]
Fannie Mae – thanks so much for your post. Very interesting to hear the actual break down of costs.
So for you to keep a broodie your cost (just upkeep; not breeding expenses) works out to be about $3700 USD per year.
This is actually just about the same as what it costs me! A breeder friend nearby to manages her horse abit more “pet-like”. For instance all her horses are all blanketed in the winter, they all come in at night every day…so of course that increases the cost in terms of labor, because someone needs to clean all those stalls and pay for bedding. She also we get our hay from the same dealer, however she feeds more concentrates than I do on a routine basis. I think she over feeds; except for broodmares, I would prefer my horses be abit lean than too fat. While my “program” may sound abit harsh or primitive to some, when we compared stats we found that I had only 2 colics in the last 17 yrs…one of which was a 26 yr old mare. The other was just this winter, and, although the mare spent afew days at the vet’s clinic, she (luckily) avoided surgery.
The other breeder has had 4 colics in the last 12 yrs, 3 of which required surgery and one died…so I think it’s actually better to raise them abit more like livestock.
As far as breeding costs, I also do my own AI and (hopefully) after this year I will be doing my own ultrasound work as well.
So it would seem that here in the US we can match the costs of raising young stock…but (it would appear) that so many WB breeders seem to think that just because the foal is by Super Stallion o/o Beloved Mare and it cost $8000 to produce it, it should be priced at $15,000.
Maybe the real sticking point is when we start to put our horses in training?
Speaking for myself, that is going to cost at least $1000 per month.
So if it’s costs me $10-12K to raise a horse till it is 3 yr old (assuming an “average” stud fee of $1200-1500 and no serious health issues throughout the years), I am going to have to charge in excess of $16,000 for a horse w/just 90 days training just to break even.
[QUOTE=Mistysmom;7460920]
I think the Fastig-Tipton/Keenland auction you are referring to is a TB venue. If so TB’s have always attracted a world wide crowd and it is a completely different market from the riding horse world. I don’t think we have any sport horse auctions that attract buyers globally.
Agree we do not have the market over here…[/QUOTE]
I would disagree on your thoughts that sport horse auctions do not attract a world wide crowd. The more prestigious European auctions attract buyers from almost every continent, the riding horse auctions have pretty high average and median prices.
The difference is the horse flesh. VDL has shown if you bring the horse flesh, the buyers will come.
Also look at the pony finals auction, most of the time, if you have an indisputably nice pony you will get a good price for it. If you bring a pony with a lot of holes in it’s training, an odd size, you won’t get a good price.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7461119]
So it would seem that here in the US we can match the costs of raising young stock…but (it would appear) that so many WB breeders seem to think that just because the foal is by Super Stallion o/o Beloved Mare and it cost $8000 to produce it, it should be priced at $15,000.
Maybe the real sticking point is when we start to put our horses in training? [/B][/QUOTE]
Your 100% right.
Wanted to point out that Fannie Mae is boarding her horses. If she was keeping them at home on her own property it would be less. I don’t think you will find many farms in America that will board a broodmare for ~ $3,297/year. Foaling out fees alone are usually a few to several hundred dollars.
To Show Boots: Your referring to the European auctions. I was referring to riding horse auctions here in America. As far as I know, we do not have any auctions comparable to those held in Europe that attract buyers globally.
I think there are so many variables to the equation that it is almost impossible to do a point to point comparison of breeding/raising/training/selling horses in the US versus Europe. Europe too has many different regions and countries. France is going to have a much different structure & cost than Denmark than Germany than Sweden. The US is going to have a much different structure and cost for TX versus VA versus CA…and then there is Canada!
I have two friends that are breeders, one in France and one in England. Both send their horses once ready for getting started under saddle to Germany to be broke and sold. For them it makes economic sense as both are in isolated areas that would be difficult to find a good local trainer and bring buyers to them. We could do the same shipping horses to states like CA, VA or FL to be trained and sold.
The farms that I have visited in Germany are either family owned farms that breed and raise horses as a side “project” and really are farmers raising crops, pigs, dairy cows, etc. The others are very rich folks that have built “mega” facilities like Bockmann, Schockemohle, etc. Now that is just my experience and I am sure there are many different scenarios. Here pretty much breeders are hobby breeders and aren’t in the horse world as their primary source of income.
Horses ARE an institution, at least in Germany. You can go to a local mare show on a Wednesday afternoon and there are 100 people there, a sausage truck selling food and beer and a social event. Go to an inspection here on a beautiful sunday afternoon and there are 20 folks milling around…all associated with the mares/ foals being presented. These are all potential marketing areas to sell their horses in Europe, make connections ,etc… We just don’t have that here.
Horses are a career there. Riders go to school and get degrees/ certificates. Breeders children that become breeders go to school for animal science related studies.
Breeders do their own insemination and do not use frozen semen. They do not have collection fees. At $150-250/ collection fee here that adds up.
I have said this before, but if we had two “central” horse regions, say CA out west and VA/ NC/ SC/ GA on the east coast that could concentrate breeders, trainers, sellers, shows, etc. we could become similar to Germany or Holland. Buyers would be able to make a week long trip to the VA area and see 100 horses instead of flying to VA, then TX, then NY, then MI, then WA, etc. There could be auctions held, there could be events. It could happen:) I mean Southern CA and Wellington didn’t happen overnight!! We certainly now have two main winter show circuits in the US.
And these are just a few variables I can think of off the top of my head…there are many, many more I am sure!
Good points ^^^^.
But I think most people when they talk about “buying overseas” they are talking Germany or Holland. At least when buying WBs.
So that was what I was comparing.
Regarding the whole frozen semen thing; I think breeders allowed this whole “by the dose” idea take hold and we accepted it, rather than insisting on a LFG and just using frozen because (obviously) chilled just doesn’t work for this type of distance.
Of course it’s too late to get that structure to change now…and why should the European stallion owners change it? If they have a popular stallion US breeders are going to spend thousands & thousands in (often) vain attempts to get those genetics and (ultimately) the product will not be competing (either in terms of sales or actual u/s competition) against it’s European siblings. I mean, I’d LOVE to know how much $$ the owners of stallions like Hohenstein & Rubinstein made from the sale of their frozen…but that’s another thread entirely.
A local GP rider sent me this link:http://www.graemont.com/dollar.php
While there certainly is alot of good info on this site, it was discouraging to me to see yet another American dressage rider not only encouraging but also assisting American buyers to shop overseas. And making $$ doing it.
Meanwhile, how do we overcome the two biggest obstacles facing the NA WB breeder? That would be (IMHO): 1) lack of competent YH riders/trainers and 2) the vast geographical distance
I agree it would be wonderful to have THREE “hubs” of NA WB activity; East Coast, West Coast and Somewhere in the Middle :lol:. Each “hub” would have to offer a full calender of shows (in hand & u/s) + auction(s) & maybe even the stallion testing.
Right now we have DAD…what sort of buyer support do you think there would be if there was a big “mixed” auction held at the same time and in the same (approximate) location?
Not that it would help me personally much, since I’m on the other side of the country, but we probably have our biggest % of WB breeders on the East Coast.
Do you think it would be supported by both buyers and sellers?
Keeping a broodmare at the price Fanniemae is giving in a boarding sitution is not typical. A lot of good breeding farms charge more and need to charge more.
Farmland prices have been rising for that last years due to the fact that we no grow energy. Where 1ha land costs 8-20000 depending on where the land is and how good it is now easily upt to 40000. Around me there is more and more corn instead of grain or grasland. Too much corn is needed for too many of those facilites that produces gas from cornsilage.
We have also a desastrous foal market - a lot of people get out of breeding. A lot of People are also subject to VAT even if they do not have a “real” business of breeding horses.
So if you know what yu want to buy in sense of quality, I am sure that people from the US can buy very good foals, yearlings for very decent Money. No VAT if horse is exported, which means a saving of 19% if one buys from a person that needs to pay VAT. If you look at fancy movements (in the sense of expressive) and flavour of the day stallions you may not be able to buy cheap. But if you are able to see in a foal the good quality even if it does not move like all the famous KWPN stallions but from behind and active - yes great deals can easily be found.
I am sure that one is able to look in a 3 day trip (3 full days in Germany) with the help of an agent in the right area at about 30 -50 foals overall. A dayfee for the Agent and you are done.
I would also say that young started horses with a bit of a show record can be found easily for a decent price. I would guess in 3 days one can manage 20 riding horses maybe more. With a good preparation of someone knowing his/her area, understanding how the client is riding.
Problem is those People that come over, tell you what they can and want and if both does not fit to in the reality.
Also one Needs to be able to make a fast decision. Directly before one leaves, decide which ones to have a PPE (great if one has alread in advance Information what the home vet would want and or insurance). Than often when buyer is home first results can be already send over. Decision should be than fast to buy. Otherwise people I know where very disappointed as the horse was already sold when it took them 3 weeks to decide…
As someone wrote a price: a PPE including 12 xrays should be about 500-650€.
I just had a PPE done for a yearling with a bit more emphasis on movement as in a foal PPE and it was 200€ (no xrays).
[QUOTE=Mistysmom;7461420]
Your 100% right.
Wanted to point out that Fannie Mae is boarding her horses. If she was keeping them at home on her own property it would be less. I don’t think you will find many farms in America that will board a broodmare for ~ $3,297/year. Foaling out fees alone are usually a few to several hundred dollars.
To Show Boots: Your referring to the European auctions. I was referring to riding horse auctions here in America. As far as I know, we do not have any auctions comparable to those held in Europe that attract buyers globally.[/QUOTE]
Agree with your comment on boarding 100% - and also point out that most of the German breeders are not boarding their horses. I have a few friends who were very active in Europe, importing horses, even co-owning horses, and in general, the horses are treated as livestock. Fed well, but little individual attention. And culling includes selling for meat - and it is legal to eat horsemeat, so you do get at least a decent price. Sounds brutal perhaps, but actually makes a lot of sense. So although there is less land, there is also less labor - and feed costs are generally quite reasonable. Then the real savings - young horse training and showing - so much less expensive in Europe…
As for auctions - many years ago, Glenwood (in California) held bi-annual sport horse auctions - and it was very successful. Now we have Pacific Sport Horse Auction (also in California) that is showing promise - it just completed 2nd year, so obviously still in start up, but very well run. Nice quality horses, and the event is an EVENT! With prizes, educational events, vendors, refreshments. Do check it out - I think this is what the US is looking for.
Well actually especially those People that own land and have other farm businesses seem to be the ones that go out of breeding as it does not make economical sense for them. More and more “Hobby” breeders are breeding.
Meat prices are not really something as a lot of old broodmares go at the Moment to the slaughterers. The approach towards giving a horse away to a slaughterer is for sure different here than there.
Due to the above mentioned problems regarding land used for corn to produces gas, feed costs have gone up quite a lot in the few past yerars.
Your import numbers for a mare are low. It used to be that importing a mare was only a few thousand more than a gelding. I was shocked at the change in cost when I brought in a mare last Fall. I don’t remember the exact numbers but if you PM me, I can take the time to find them. It also depends on what state you bring your mare into: Florida had significant additional charges.
As for buying in Europe, it’s a tricky thing. Once you bring a horse in, its very hard to send it back! Just like the US, there are honest and not so honest dealers.
Buying at auction is also deceptive re: price. The knockdown price is not what the buyer pays for the horse. Most auction houses charge a buyer’s premium around 7%, then automatically charge an additional 1% for insurance. There is also a new tax system in place. The tax was refundable previously to foreign buyers. This is no longer always the case. There are three different tax percentages depending on who is selling the horse and some are not refundable. Even if it is refundable, your money can be tied up for months and the refund may not come through.
Another new and irritating practice of the Hanoverian auction is that they charge you for board and training unless you remove the horse the next day. Even if you arrange shipping ahead of time, it’s unlikely that you can get the money wired and the horses shipped before a 7-10 days. This added almost $1000 extra to the knockdown recently.
As for the cost of PPE, there’s wide variability. Anywhere from 1-3k euros depending on what needs to be done and who does it.
[QUOTE=Mistysmom;7460760]
As a seller, I’m pretty sure that they can buy back their horse if it doesn’t get the price wanted…. not sure exactly how that works though.[/QUOTE]
At the auction I bought my weanling at here in NA, it was run like a European auction (several imported horses were shipped in/German riders were flown in). Almost every horse went for about 20k less than market value.
For sellers - There is a seller determined reserve on every horse that is not announced. The auction proceeds and if someone bids $1 and no one else bids, the hammer goes down, and is seems to the crowd that the horse is “sold” for $1. However, when you go to pay for your horse, they tell you that you did not meet the reserve, and sometimes you will be given the option of meeting the reserve and purchasing the horse. In some auctions if the horse does not sell, the seller pays a percentage of the reserve.
[QUOTE=Plantagenet;7463756]
Buying at auction is also deceptive re: price. The knockdown price is not what the buyer pays for the horse. Most auction houses charge a buyer’s premium around 7%[/QUOTE]
This is absolutely true as well.
[QUOTE=SugarAndSpite;7463867]
At the auction I bought my weanling at here in NA, it was run like a European auction (several imported horses were shipped in/German riders were flown in). Almost every horse went for about 20k less than market value. [/QUOTE]
Huh? Can you clarify this? What if the horse’s market value was less than $20,000 to begin with?
Agree with Plantagenet- the import numbers in mares thrown around previously are very low. It’s running $17k to Davis (although 1800 of that was transport from UK to Amsterdam). Many buyers in US are now looking in Czech, Irl, UK as prices in Germany and Ned have become extremely hard to find a “deal.” Under 3/4 I am doubtful that an individual can save $$ buying in Europe with the additional costs of import- even a 5k euro weanling becomes $17,500 to get to US and for that a person had plenty of options in US and Canada.
It’s the 5/6/7 yr old range where it becomes harder to say, but I think it also depends in what a person is looking for. I think it then really becomes about the individual horse and top quality here and there is going to be expensive as people know what they have. A solid 1.20/1.30 jumper with experience is going to be cheaper in Europe then here, but with more risk to buy as you can’t research show record and “check up” on reputation. However a top 5/6/7 jumper is going to cost $$$ her or there and the price of import becomes negligible and there are more for sale in Europe. As to hunters it is very similar. Anything in Germany/Bel/Hol that is pretty, quiet and moves well is going to be priced accordingly. They know what they have. I saw many fancy 4/5 yr old hunters, some with zero show experience and others with some experience, routinely priced in the 20-40k euro. A person was looking at 60-100 us to get it on the ground here. Can you find a top hunter prospect for that in the US? It’s surprisingly hard. The more mid range talent is probably cheaper in Europe though as its much less expensive for horses to show in Europe so more of theses types of horses get out there and developed.
Can you find a top hunter prospect for that in the US? It’s surprisingly hard.
I agree with this. I just recently tried to help someone who was willing to spend decent money for an unbroke 2yo. But the horse had to be seriously nice. I couldn’t find one. She ended up with one, but it was a seriously nice yearling.
I was just wondering if any of you know of good websites to look at german or Dutch ( or Czech, Irish etc) youngsters and or broodmares. Just window shopping! I was promised a promotion at work today and it would appear now or probably Autumn may be a good time to buy. Just dreaming really, I doubt I will ever afford a horse again.
I am in the UK and horses are very expensive to keep here. More so than germany I would have thought. Unless you own your own land and can buy food in bulk or grow your own hay and look after them yourself etc, I would budget about 800 GBP a month for a young horse not in work - includes full livery (600 monthly for livery though may get cheaper with other babies living out summer and group in a barn winter ) and budget about another 150 per month minimum for insurance, worming, feet, vaccines. Depends on the area though. For a horse in work in a good pro yard you would I suspect need about 2000 a month. Not sure how helpful this is for the discussion. Maybe I am underestimating as I have not h ad a horse in the UK for a while. A friend does though and her full livery ( includes hay, bedding, hard feed as well as yard turning out, feeding and mucking out but no grooming or exercise) is 600 a month. A trim for an unshod horse is about 30 every 6 weeks or so. Teeth about 30 - 50 every 6 months. Wormer and vaccines I would budget 200 a year. Insurance can be very expensive as can vet fees. If you add in cost of the upkeep of a car or even just weekly fuel it gets scarey…
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
