Addressing a sensitive issue with clients

[TrakHack]

I’ve had an interesting experience with this.

My childhood instructor, from age 8-20, was very open about weight. She plainly told me I was too heavy for certain school horses. She was also very complimentary if my weight went down. She was very specific about the build of horse I needed, should I ever get my own horse.

The owner of a ranch camp where I worked in college, a British woman, was very conscious about the weight her horses carried. The 6’2" sturdily built man shared the same staff horses as me (I’m 5’5"); these horses were usually short, as we had to mount from the ground. Heavier campers were assigned horses first, since not every horse was up for carrying weight. The pony I rode when I was first a camper there was still carrying fat kids 12 years later when I worked there.

My current instructor is a bit different, she has told me “Stop saying you are too heavy! Any decently conformed, healthy horse can comfortably carry you!” I weigh 235 now, and purchased a Norwegian Fjord a few years ago to have a suitable mount. My instructor has encouraged me to get another horse, but the reason is to have a smoother, more cooperative partner. Friesians are bred at her farm, and if there were anything under 16hh I would consider it, but I really like shorter horses (14.2 - 15.2 is ideal). I think an old-style Morgan is likely in my future.

Regardless of the age of the rider, I think a straight-forward approach is the best. Instead of the suggestions to lose weight, I much prefer the approach of “Let’s talk about the kind of horse that’s the best match for you”, which opens the discussion of all equine qualities, including conformation and weight-carrying ability. For the woman with the beloved Arab, let her know that as the horse ages she will need to modify what she does with him to keep him comfortable. My Trakehner went from my full-time ride, to my part-time ride, to a ride for a lighter college student, to my bf’s occasional walk/trot ride in a western saddle, to pony rides, to full retirement. He’s still part of my life, but I haven’t been on him in over three years.

I’ve spent most of my life worrying about being too heavy for riding. I decided to buy a horse specifically built for carrying weight and haven’t looked back. The poster who mentioned changing her school horses to suit the heavier and taller riders she sees today is spot-on.

[FatDinah]

It’s not how you look. It’s a health issue for the horse and you.
You may think your horse is fine (and maybe he is) but that weight may be contributing to stress on joints and muscles. I go by the 200 limit because that is what the wranglers here at Zion, Bryce and Grand Canyon parks use for their trail horses. And all those horses and mules do is walk.
More important, BigMama1, it is about YOUR health. You are obese weighing 205. That is setting you up for all kinds of health problems - heart issues, blood pressure, diabetes, arthritis in your knees/ankles, spine problems.
Maybe OP being honest and setting horses off-limits will be a wakeup call for these women, an incentive to do something to improve their health.

[BigMama1]

I’m not sure why you think these women - or me for that matter - are not aware of the health risks and need a wake up call? If you read my posts you will see I don’t deny being obese, or that it comes with health risks. And if you read the part where I list all the activity I do weekly, you’ll see that I’m already doing a fair bit to improve my health and lower the risks. Not all fat people spend their day lying on the couch shoving bonbons down their throats.

Most overweight people I know are the same. We do our best to be as healthy as we can in the bodies we have, listen to the expert advice of our doctors and try not to let judgements from random strangers get us down.

It’s ironic that a fat person being active - running or biking for example - will often get pointed at and laughed at, by the same people who tell us how bad being fat is. Riding is great physical exercise and good for mental health as well, not to mention all the extra exercise from mucking, sweeping, turnout, etc. I can tell you I would be a lot less healthy if I didn’t ride.

Horse health is important and the OP is right to be concerned about her horses. She is the best person to determine whether they are struggling and to set limits. My vet laughed when I suggested my weight might be an issue for my horse and said not a chance a horse his size in reasonable fitness would have any trouble doing the work asked by someone much heavier than me.

[skydy]

[QUOTE=UnlacedDreams;8697444]

Being larger has become the new normal in many places. My mother hosts craft lessons and women from 20 to 90 years old attend regularly. About 2/3rds of them appear to be of a weight that would classify them as obese for their height. My mom is one of them. When her doctor told her she was obese and needed to lose weight, she was floored. She knew she was kinda chubby, but still relatively active and not bedridden or anything.

I’m not saying to be a jerk and run around telling people that they’re fat. All I’m saying is that for some people, when mom and dad are clinically obese, the neighbors are clinically obese, and many of their friends range from chubby to obese…to them they’re not fat. They’re normal. And it’s likely these type individuals that cause situations like the OP is experiencing.[/QUOTE]

I think this is very insightful.

How is an instructor supposed to communicate to an adult obese rider whose horse is not up to their weight, that there is a problem, when that rider can see that there are obese riders on 14.2 hand horses riding on our international reining teams (and winning)?

If the rider is unable to feel that the horse is having issues carrying their weight, then I would guess that no amount of explaining by the instructor about the weight carrying abilities of individual horses or the short and long term soundness issues of horses will likely help. They will not necessarily understand that it really depends upon the horse and its weight carrying ability and that it is not just about how tall or short the horse is.

They will only need to look at many U.S. professionals, in FEI reining classes to feel that there is no issue as far as weight and riding is concerned.

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=FatDinah;8697691]
It’s not how you look. It’s a health issue for the horse and you.
You may think your horse is fine (and maybe he is) but that weight may be contributing to stress on joints and muscles. I go by the 200 limit because that is what the wranglers here at Zion, Bryce and Grand Canyon parks use for their trail horses. And all those horses and mules do is walk.
More important, BigMama1, it is about YOUR health. You are obese weighing 205. That is setting you up for all kinds of health problems - heart issues, blood pressure, diabetes, arthritis in your knees/ankles, spine problems.
Maybe OP being honest and setting horses off-limits will be a wakeup call for these women, an incentive to do something to improve their health.[/QUOTE]

The NPS wranglers’ 200 pound guideline makes perfect sense - in that context. They are giving trail rides, over rough country, to people who don’t know how to ride and may not be in the best physical condition. It’s completely impractical for them to decide, on a person-by-person basis, who can go on their trail ride. So, they make a conservative, blanket rule to keep things simple and non-contentious.

But to actually believe no one over 200 pounds ought to be riding a horse is just silly. Many horses are perfectly capable of carrying a rider of that weight. Rider balance and skill has a strong effect on how the horse experiences the weight of the rider. And people who are overweight and in very poor physical condition aren’t going to have the stamina to work a horse for long at faster gaits so will be a relatively easy ride for the horse. And so on and so on, reining horses, yadda yadda, 20% rule, blah blah, short back and heavy bone…all that stuff that has been hashed and rehashed multiple times on COTH.

And none of us fat chicks need to be lectured by some internet stranger about our weight and health. We aren’t stupid or deaf or entirely oblivious to the media and the word around us. We already know all that stuff and we’re working on it, or not, as suits our particular situation and inclinations.

And almost all of the overweight riders I know are very aware of the potential impacts on their horses and err on the side of caution when making decisions about what horses to ride and how much/what kind of work they ask those horses to do.

In response to the OP’s original question, I think you have to be kind, but you have to be honest. If you believe a rider is too big for certain school horses, just tell them that those horses aren’t appropriate mounts for them. And take advantage of the opportunity to do some teaching - explain exactly what it is about one horse that makes it suitable (tall, big-boned, short-backed, whatever) and another that makes it unsuitable (too short, too fine boned, a long back that isn’t good for weight-bearing, whatever).

As far as the woman with her own horse, again, be honest. Tell her why you are uncomfortable and offer whatever you feel are reasonable solutions. If she doesn’t want to change anything, then your only choices are to continue to work with her without harping on the weight issue or to tell her you can’t work with her anymore. It’s entirely up to you.

[FatDinah]

Winning doesn’t mean a rider is taking care of their horse’s health. Horses that are drugged or abused with soring, tack poles and excessive lunging win ALL THE TIME. How long do these reining horses last? How many endure injuries and pain?

I don’t believe anyone laughs at someone exercising. I certainly don’t. But also bicycles and running shoes don’t feel pain from an obese person pounding on them like a horse does.

And I am tired of excuses from fat people. Anyone can lose weight if they eat mostly vegetables with a small amount of lean protein and drink only water.

And I wish you would, not only for your health and your horse’s well-being but because I am tired of paying for increasing medical care costs from obesity-related health issues. Just like I do for people who smoke despite all the evidence and publicity about its health effects.

[JLR1]

There is no way around it, this is a very delicate situation. I have a friend who has been overweight for most of her life. As a rider she is actually very balanced and owns a horse appropriate for her size. In a group lesson horses were sometimes traded to get a perspective on how others move. She asked to trade horses with another rider for a few minutes and was told she was “too big”. She broke into tears. She later told me her reaction wasn’t a denial that she was large, but it triggered painful memories from childhood regarding her mother. She is someone who has emotional baggage regarding her weight and I don’t think there will ever be a polite way to tell her what she already knows.

Given that your client recently gained a lot of weight for any number of reasons, emotional or physical I would personally err on the side of telling a white lie rather than risk hurting someone’s feelings. Saying something like X horse you used to ride has a full lesson schedule now and I think you are ready to move onto horse Y who has a lot to teach you. Going forward I do see how having a stated height/weight range for each lesson horse would in a very matter of fact and nonjudgmental way avoid uncomfortable discussions. At your discretion a larger rider that is balanced and light in his/her seat might have more flexibility in choices.

[UnlacedDreams]

[QUOTE=FatDinah;8697840]
Winning doesn’t mean a rider is taking care of their horse’s health. Horses that are drugged or abused with soring, tack poles and excessive lunging win ALL THE TIME. How long do these reining horses last? How many endure injuries and pain?

I don’t believe anyone laughs at someone exercising. I certainly don’t. But also bicycles and running shoes don’t feel pain from an obese person pounding on them like a horse does.

And I am tired of excuses from fat people. Anyone can lose weight if they eat mostly vegetables with a small amount of lean protein and drink only water.

And I wish you would, not only for your health and your horse’s well-being but because I am tired of paying for increasing medical care costs from obesity-related health issues. Just like I do for people who smoke despite all the evidence and publicity about its health effects.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, there are people who laugh at others exercising. But I’m not going to claim that overweight people have a monopoly on being taunted whilst exercising. I have had insults thrown at me when I was jogging around campus by frat boys just looking to be mean, and I was definitely not overweight at the time. A friend and I started going running together and we sometimes had people yell things at us like “lesbos!” and similar. Again, frat boys being jerks.

[meaty_ogre]

Truthfully, this is about their goals and not just their weights, so make it about their goals, with weight as part of the discussion and not the opening line or whole discussion.

Here’s what I’d say to the client who gained 100lbs:
“You mentioned that you want to work on X, Y, and Z in your next lesson, and while the pony you are riding is capable of that work, he is not capable of that work while carrying more than 30% of his body weight. Is it more important to you to continue to ride this particular pony, or to work on X, Y, and Z because you can’t do both.”
If she says she is only comfortable riding this pony, you can discuss that further. Maybe she has fear/confidence issues and doesn’t think she can ride something else. Hopefully you can convince her otherwise and hopefully you have access to a suitable alternative mount, either in your lesson string or via networking with other professionals.

To the arab-cross owner:
“I’m glad you chose to come to me for training with your horse, but we need to be realistic with your goals and plans. Any horse, not just yours, is going to be limited in the work they are capable of performing when they are asked to carry more than 30% of their body weight. What are your goals?”
If she says she wants to show 3rd level with him, be prepared to point out specifics as to why they can’t (i.e., he can’t be expected to do changes when he isn’t able to hold a balanced canter for more than a few strides due to being unable to balance her weight, and no amount of strengthening and training is going to fix that.) If she remains insistent on only riding this horse, try to find out why. Has she taken a bad spill off of an unsuitable mount? Was she over-horsed by other trainers or instructors?
If it is just because she simply loves and is bonded with this horse, could they work in a different discipline? Maybe trail riding or driving?

Horses are not the only thing with weight limits. I have a cabover bed in my RV with a weight limit and I wouldn’t put people that are too heavy up there and risk breaking it for fear of hurting someone’s feelings. It’s simply physics…the structure can hold what it can hold. Same for kayaks, segways, helicopters, etc. You can make a judgment as to whether something is suitable without being judgmental. You could still lose the clients, but if you are professional and stick to the issue from a goal-oriented standpoint, as any professional should do, then any perception of fat-shaming is on them and you did what you could to help. And if it makes any difference as far as perspective, I’m fat and I’d appreciate the above approach if I were in either person’s shoes.

[BigMama1]

[QUOTE=FatDinah;8697840]

And I am tired of excuses from fat people. Anyone can lose weight if they eat mostly vegetables with a small amount of lean protein and drink only water.

And I wish you would, not only for your health and your horse’s well-being but because I am tired of paying for increasing medical care costs from obesity-related health issues. Just like I do for people who smoke despite all the evidence and publicity about its health effects.[/QUOTE]

Um…wow. All I can say is it must be nice to be so perfect that you can judge others. You obviously eat a perfect diet of whole unprocessed foods, get 8 hours of sleep a night, walk at least 10,000 steps every day, don’t live in an area with high pollution, don’t have a desk job or do shift work, never drive over the speed limit, never drink alcohol, always wear your seat belt and a helmet, don’t go in the sun, have never suffered from depression or anxiety…imagine how awful it would be if you did any of these things and someone else had to shoulder the health care costs for your poor choices!

[Prettypony88]

Just to clarify…personally I go by the rule that anything over 25% of the horse’s body weight is too much. I know that some disagree but that just happens to be my personal standard in my program. I would look at things like confirmation of a horse’s back, leg and joint strength, and training level as additional factors. For a horse performing at upper levels, my own trainer would have me stay between 10 and 15% (which seems a bit unrealistic for most but is his standard).

In the case of the young girl I wrote about, we are talking a very fit 10 year old pony who has never struggled to do things like walk canter transitions or collected gaits and under this rider (although balanced and applying the correct aids) is not performing to capacity and is also fatiguing way before she usually would in a workout. To my standard the rider is too much for the horse and it is in my interest not to have her struggle and sour in her work. That being said and given all the awesome feedback here, I think I will encourage her to do some additional exercising in the name of core strength and look into using another larger mount.
As far as the older rider and horse combo goes…upon riding the horse myself (probably a 900lb animal at most), I found him light in his gaits, uphill, and performing with ease where with his own rider he simply cannot perform beyond basic training level movements. In that situation and has been said a few times on here I think I will just be upfront, maybe tell her how I’ve agonized bringing the issue up. As it’s been pointed out I have to be prepared to lose the business in the name of preserving principles of horse welfare.
Also, its worth saying that I’m not making a judgement about whether or not a rider is obese or over a weight they should be, just saying I’ve noticed their horses struggling in work (in these cases fairly difficult work, it might be different trail riding at a walk and light trot as opposed to a full dressage school and on occasion gymnastic workout), I think I would have reached the same conclusion about a fit 6’ tall rider on a 13 hh pony.
Finally, a few people have mentioned that it seems odd to see so many unfit riders. I am on the East Coast in a fairly affluent area and in the past few years have been seeing more and more riders (both large and small) who are completely unfit and don’t exercise at all (many of them girls between 12 and 18). A few come to the realization that their lack of strength and stamina is holding them back and pursue other exercise (biking, swimming, running, etc) but then there are others who seem totally unaware. Again, not my judgement to make whether not they are obese or just unfit, just an observation to add to some of the commentary here.

[FatDinah]

[QUOTE=BigMama1;8697892]
Um…wow. All I can say is it must be nice to be so perfect that you can judge others. You obviously eat a perfect diet of whole unprocessed foods, get 8 hours of sleep a night, walk at least 10,000 steps every day, don’t live in an area with high pollution, don’t have a desk job or do shift work, never drive over the speed limit, never drink alcohol, always wear your seat belt and a helmet, don’t go in the sun, have never suffered from depression or anxiety…imagine how awful it would be if you did any of these things and someone else had to shoulder the health care costs for your poor choices![/QUOTE]

As a matter of fact, that describes many of the choices I have made in my life. I see it not as being perfect but responsible for my actions.

As an adult, you decide what you eat and drink. Being fat is all about the choices only you make. If eating or drinking to excess is more important than your health or your capability as an athlete and rider, then you’ll stay fat.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=FatDinah;8697933]
If eating or drinking to excess is more important than your health or your capability as an athlete and rider, then you’ll stay fat.[/QUOTE]

oh.my.word.

[Dee-Vee]

I guess OP it becomes a question of what your end goal is here. Do you want the riders more fit (which includes weight loss) or on horses that can accommodate their physique?

If more fit, then the “you have to work on your core in order to progress” discussion is the door opener with a technical reason why this is necessary in the art of dressage. Without it they have plateaued.

If you want them on bigger horses…you can say that you match riders to the horses that can teach them something. The core discussion can then come if they want to ride something unsuitable, as in you have to work on your core to progress to that horse.

Nudge…

FatDinah, thanks for the morning laugh. You are hilarious. Maybe you can solve world hunger as easily?

[Cascades]

[QUOTE=FatDinah;8697933]
As a matter of fact, that describes many of the choices I have made in my life. I see it not as being perfect but responsible for my actions.

As an adult, you decide what you eat and drink. Being fat is all about the choices only you make. If eating or drinking to excess is more important than your health or your capability as an athlete and rider, then you’ll stay fat.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

I’m sorry, but I think it’s damaging to pretend that the vast vast majority of people cannot control their own weight when they absolutely can. Spreading myths like that is what causes people to give up on themselves. If you don’t mind being fat, that’s fine. But don’t make it harder for others who might want to make a change. You absolutely can be in control of your weight if you choose to take responsibility for your daily choices.

[Countrywood]

In case it helps anybody reading struggling with weight…

Try the Paleo Food Plan. I call it a food plan and not a diet because it is not a diet (you basically eat as much as you want, well , within some reason of course but it’s not about calorie counting or food restriction). I have been on it over a year, love it, am healthier and fitter and lost some weight and more important, able to keep it off with no deprivation of any kind. A more “lenient” version of Paleo is called Primal, if you are to read one book on it read “The Primal Blueprint” by Mark Sasso, it explains the physiology and which foods get stored as fat in our bodies and which don’t, and why so many diets fail (since almost all of them are based on calorie restriction or restricted food choices). Paleo/Primal does eliminate a few food choices that will store fat, otherwise it would not work. But it lets you eat quantities of so many other wonderful foods so it is not about deprivation.

Anyway, a look up on web will bring up sites on Paleo I am on my own version of it eating less meat as I personally want to cut way down on meat for ethical reasons, though they recommend grass fed beef since it is pasture raised. Wishing good health and fitness to all.

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Cascades;8697967]
Agreed.

I’m sorry, but I think it’s damaging to pretend that the vast vast majority of people cannot control their own weight when they absolutely can. Spreading myths like that is what causes people to give up on themselves. If you don’t mind being fat, that’s fine. But don’t make it harder for others who might want to make a change. You absolutely can be in control of your weight if you choose to take responsibility for your daily choices.[/QUOTE]

You are completely missing the point.

Fat people know they are fat. They don’t need some internet stranger lecturing them on their weight. It’s rude and offensive. It’s none of your business. It’s counterproductive. It makes you look like an insensitive jerk.

[Cascades]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8698007]
You are completely missing the point.

Fat people know they are fat. They don’t need some internet stranger lecturing them on their weight. It’s rude and offensive. It’s none of your business. It’s counterproductive. It makes you look like an insensitive jerk.[/QUOTE]

I’m not trying to lecture anyone. And when I use ‘you’ I’m addressing the general ‘you’, not a specific poster. I realize that fat people know they are fat. What I’m addressing is the statements about BMI and metabolic disorder and all of the other excuses. If you’re happy being fat, good for you, it’s none of my business. But on a public bb, where someone struggling with their weight might be reading, I think it’s important to combat the idea that it’s impossible to lose weight. It 100% isn’t.

You are in control of your weight, for better or for worse, and whether you like it or not. How does a statement of fact make me an insensitive jerk?

[tabula_rashah]

[QUOTE=FatDinah;8697840]
Winning doesn’t mean a rider is taking care of their horse’s health. Horses that are drugged or abused with soring, tack poles and excessive lunging win ALL THE TIME. How long do these reining horses last? How many endure injuries and pain?

I don’t believe anyone laughs at someone exercising. I certainly don’t. But also bicycles and running shoes don’t feel pain from an obese person pounding on them like a horse does.

And I am tired of excuses from fat people. Anyone can lose weight if they eat mostly vegetables with a small amount of lean protein and drink only water.

And I wish you would, not only for your health and your horse’s well-being but because I am tired of paying for increasing medical care costs from obesity-related health issues. Just like I do for people who smoke despite all the evidence and publicity about its health effects.[/QUOTE]

Gosh sure hope you never have any medical issues that change your weight.

Let’s play a game. I’ll tell you what my typical day is like (diet and exercise-wise) and you guess how much you think I weigh.
So AM, get up at 5-5:30, get ready and have breakfast (breakfast= water, turkey sausage and fruit or vegetables). After breakfast, I feed the horses at home which equals a 1/2 mile round trip while carrying feed, hay, etc)
Then I head to work- am there by 7:45 where I put in a minimum of 8 hours (physical job- I work at a tree nursery). Lunch at work is usually a salad or a sandwich with an unsweet iced tea. I am an afternoon snack person- snack is either some cheese, cucumbers, plantains or nuts. After work I head to the barn, feed my 4 that are boarded and ride 2-3 if doing short rides on them (less than an hour), if I’m doing a conditioning ride then I just ride one but it’s a 2-3 hour ride mostly at posting trot. If for some reason I don’t ride in the evening, I either go to the gym or go hiking when I get home. When I get home, usually 7:30-8ish, I feed the ones at home (another 1/2 mile walk carrying stuff) and then grab dinner if I’m not too exhausted- dinner last night was chicken breast with snap peas (raw) and brussel sprouts (roasted with olive oil) always with water or unsweet tea, desert was a handful of dried pineapple. On the weekends, I work on Saturday AM but the rest of the time is generally spent on a horse or hiking or kayaking. DH and I do go out to dinner on Saturday evenings (date night) and I don’t watch what I eat then and when I’m done riding on Sunday afternoon, I will sit down and watch the ball game with DH. I compete in endurance, CTR and mounted orienteering and do geocaching. My step average is between 12-18,000 a day and I do tons of lifting. So go ahead FatDinah (ironic name BTW) and give it a good guess- no cheating and looking me up.

[cnm161]

Apropos of nothing, but I love FatDinah’s username juxtaposed with his/her views.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.