Addressing a sensitive issue with clients

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=Cascades;8697219]
One weighs 250 lbs. Unless she’s also 6’6", she’s obese.

The other gained 100 lbs. Assuming she was a healthy weight before (not underweight), she’d have to be obese. There isn’t 100lbs of wiggle room between healthy and obese.

Again, not a value judgement. Just a statement of facts.[/QUOTE]

Clinically obese is a somewhat lower BM than you might think. It isn’t necessarily 400 lbs and needs to be lifted out of the double-wide with a hoist. People can be functional and obese (and at risk of a lot of health problems). Likewise, clinically overweight actually kicks in at a BM point where you might still be thinking “hey I don’t look so bad,” depending on what the norm is for your community. And it also carries health risks, depending on you underlying fitness level.

On the other end of the scale (so to speak), though, people don’t always know when they are slipping into dangerously thin, again if you are in a community that prides skinniness.

[Cascades]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8697264]
Clinically obese is a somewhat lower BM than you might think. It isn’t necessarily 400 lbs and needs to be lifted out of the double-wide with a hoist. People can be functional and obese (and at risk of a lot of health problems). Likewise, clinically overweight actually kicks in at a BM point where you might still be thinking “hey I don’t look so bad,” depending on what the norm is for your community. And it also carries health risks, depending on you underlying fitness level.

On the other end of the scale (so to speak), though, people don’t always know when they are slipping into dangerously thin, again if you are in a community that prides skinniness.[/QUOTE]

I know exactly what obesity looks like. I was clinically obese at 210 lbs, about 4 years ago.

Clinically obese is unhealthy. At that point, you are 50+lbs from a normal weight.

There are several people who seem to think that OP might just be talking about vanity weight. She isn’t, as far as I can tell. She’s talking about people who are obese. Not “chubby”. Not “slightly overweight”. Obese.

Whether or not that is an issue is up to them, obviously. But if it is impacting their horses, it’s time to have a talk.

[enjoytheride]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8697171]
That’s a little excessive.

I don’t think anyone is saying to lie or to just continue to let the overweight rider ride the clearly burdened horse.

However, there is a very vast and wide difference between what people view as overweight. Up thread someone said a 5’5 rider at 135 (or some similar number) was overweight! :eek:

Body dysmorphia is alive and thriving in the horse world too. A rider that is 160 and 5’6" is one person’s “perfectly fine” and other person’s “hideously obese”.

The important thing is to have facts, not opinions, when weighing in on the matter.[/QUOTE]

In your post you extensively interrogated the OP demanding to know all sorts of information to seemingly tell her that her conclusions were wrong. Not every instructor is intent on a toothpick thin rider on an 18 hand horse. Sometimes riders are just overweight or obese and sometimes it affects their horse. Denying that this happens doesn’t help anyone. However, there were multiple people who suggested sneaky ways of getting around telling the lesson student that she was too heavy to ride her favorite lesson horses.

Other people insist that the people in question know that they are obese and don’t need anyone to tell them such. However, it doesn’t seem like they don’t know how their weight is affecting their horse, or their balance on that horse, so why shouldn’t someone step in? It’s going to cause some hurt feelings but why isn’t honesty the best policy in a situation where a horse’s health is at stake?

[SendenHorse]

is there some reason why this wasn’t brought up initially in perhaps the first session? Just curious.

[kcmel]

@beowulf;8697056

There is an ever increasing trend for people to think they need Super Massive Humungo Mounts. Point in case: every horse ever is listed as 16/17h and no one can sell a 15.3h horse. You’re over 5 ft tall? Sorry, you need 17h+, at least.

LOL, off topic but so true. I did a happy dance when my 5 YO finally sticked at 16 H after being stuck at 15.3 for almost a year. Just a psychological thing on my part I guess (although my 5’10" dressage trainer did look a little ridiculous on him before he filled out). I’m sure I couldn’t have afforded him if he were already 16 H when I bought him as a 4 YO.

[netg]

[QUOTE=kcmel;8697401]
LOL, off topic but so true. I did a happy dance when my 5 YO finally sticked at 16 H after being stuck at 15.3 for almost a year. Just a psychological thing on my part I guess (although my 5’10" dressage trainer did look a little ridiculous on him before he filled out). I’m sure I couldn’t have afforded him if he were already 16 H when I bought him as a 4 YO.[/QUOTE]

Sadly, many breeders (especially if breeding warmbloods for dressage) don’t want to list their shorter youngsters. I WANT shorter youngsters! When I bought my mare at 2 1/2 I could easily see over her back. I’m 5’1". Her breeder (acottongim on here, who is WONDERFUL!) predicted she’d finish at 16hh, based on her stature compared to full siblings. I hoped she was wrong. I think we’ll finish at 16.1. But gosh, I would have been perfectly happy with 15.3 like she was last year! Luckily she’s a smaller build and therefore still comfortable for me - and her size has shown me how much harder bigger horses are for me to ride.

[UnlacedDreams]

[QUOTE=Cascades;8697270]
I know exactly what obesity looks like. I was clinically obese at 210 lbs, about 4 years ago.

Clinically obese is unhealthy. At that point, you are 50+lbs from a normal weight.

There are several people who seem to think that OP might just be talking about vanity weight. She isn’t, as far as I can tell. She’s talking about people who are obese. Not “chubby”. Not “slightly overweight”. Obese.

Whether or not that is an issue is up to them, obviously. But if it is impacting their horses, it’s time to have a talk.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you here, but I’m not sure you’re all that much of the norm anymore!

Everyone says that you should never tell an overweight person that they’re fat, because they already know. But I’m starting to think that more and more people don’t actually know quite how large they are. At one point I was clinically overweight. Not that mythical “it’s just muscle” overweight, but legitimately overweight. Not extremely overweight, but enough that I saw the weight and BMI at my annual physical and went “oh crap”. Then looked in the mirror and went “OH SH@*!!!” (I had been busy with senior year finals, so sue me I didn’t look in the mirror much).

But I still had people calling me scrawny. Twiggy. Skinny. “Why are you dieting? You don’t have anything to lose!”.

Being larger has become the new normal in many places. My mother hosts craft lessons and women from 20 to 90 years old attend regularly. About 2/3rds of them appear to be of a weight that would classify them as obese for their height. My mom is one of them. When her doctor told her she was obese and needed to lose weight, she was floored. She knew she was kinda chubby, but still relatively active and not bedridden or anything.

I’m not saying to be a jerk and run around telling people that they’re fat. All I’m saying is that for some people, when mom and dad are clinically obese, the neighbors are clinically obese, and many of their friends range from chubby to obese…to them they’re not fat. They’re normal. And it’s likely these type individuals that cause situations like the OP is experiencing.

[BigMama1]

I’m fat. Obese. I know I’m obese. I know I would ride better and look better on my horse if I weighed less. My trainer doesn’t need to tell me this. What she needs to do (and does) is help me be the best I can in the body I’m in right now. As I continue to progress and have harder goals, I work harder on my fitness to help me get there.

It is the trainer’s job to make sure her own horses are safe and that they aren’t being asked to carry excessive weight. Nothing wrong with setting reasonable weight limits for school horses and telling riders they need to ride a different horse.

BMI is a pretty useless way to judge health, just as as an aside. It doesn’t recognize any difference between the weight of bones, muscle and fat. It doesn’t take into account the amount of visceral body fat, which is a far better predictor of health. Part of the problem is our desire to label everyone fat as unfit. I can tell you that mucking 20 stalls 3-4 times a week, riding 5 times a week, and walking an average of 17,000 steps a day keeps me pretty fit and strong, despite my weight. Not being in denial that excessive weight causes health problems and that I wouldn’t be healthier at a lower weight, but that fat can still be fit.

[Cascades]

[QUOTE=BigMama1;8697532]

BMI is a pretty useless way to judge health, just as as an aside. It doesn’t recognize any difference between the weight of bones, muscle and fat. It doesn’t take into account the amount of visceral body fat, which is a far better predictor of health. Part of the problem is our desire to label everyone fat as unfit. I can tell you that mucking 20 stalls 3-4 times a week, riding 5 times a week, and walking an average of 17,000 steps a day keeps me pretty fit and strong, despite my weight. Not being in denial that excessive weight causes health problems and that I wouldn’t be healthier at a lower weight, but that fat can still be fit.[/QUOTE]

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this.

[UnlacedDreams]

I didn’t really want to touch on the whole “fat but fit” thing, but since you went there: a comprehensive study from 2013 has shown that it is likely a myth. This article discusses the study: http://healthland.time.com/2013/12/02/you-cant-be-fit-and-fat/

[TickleFight]

[QUOTE=BigMama1;8697532]

BMI is a pretty useless way to judge health, just as as an aside. It doesn’t recognize any difference between the weight of bones, muscle and fat. It doesn’t take into account the amount of visceral body fat, which is a far better predictor of health. Part of the problem is our desire to label everyone fat as unfit. I can tell you that mucking 20 stalls 3-4 times a week, riding 5 times a week, and walking an average of 17,000 steps a day keeps me pretty fit and strong, despite my weight. Not being in denial that excessive weight causes health problems and that I wouldn’t be healthier at a lower weight, but that fat can still be fit.[/QUOTE]

You must be eating ridiculous amounts of unhealthy food on a daily basis if you really are that active and still obese. Something doesn’t add up.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8697381]
In your post you extensively interrogated the OP demanding to know all sorts of information to seemingly tell her that her conclusions were wrong. Not every instructor is intent on a toothpick thin rider on an 18 hand horse. Sometimes riders are just overweight or obese and sometimes it affects their horse. Denying that this happens doesn’t help anyone. However, there were multiple people who suggested sneaky ways of getting around telling the lesson student that she was too heavy to ride her favorite lesson horses.

Other people insist that the people in question know that they are obese and don’t need anyone to tell them such. However, it doesn’t seem like they don’t know how their weight is affecting their horse, or their balance on that horse, so why shouldn’t someone step in? It’s going to cause some hurt feelings but why isn’t honesty the best policy in a situation where a horse’s health is at stake?[/QUOTE]

The poster posted a vague post about heavy riders on their long-suffering mounts. Forgive me for wanting more information before saying “off with their heads.”

Someone absolutely should step in if the horses are suffering. I think people are missing that isn’t my point. I’m curious to know what OP thinks is overweight?

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=TickleFight;8697555]
You must be eating ridiculous amounts of unhealthy food on a daily basis if you really are that active and still obese. Something doesn’t add up.[/QUOTE]

Have you ever heard of thyroid issues? Metabolic disorders?

[Cascades]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8697576]
Have you ever heard of thyroid issues? Metabolic disorders?[/QUOTE]

Most account for 10-20lbs of weight gain, maximum. I know people who have had their thyroids removed who are of normal weight.

The fact is, 70% of the population in the US is fat. Not all of them can claim thyroid or metabolic issues. And none of them can defy the laws of thermodynamics to the point of creating energy (fat) out of thin air.

[TickleFight]

[QUOTE=UnlacedDreams;8697550]
I didn’t really want to touch on the whole “fat but fit” thing, but since you went there: a comprehensive study from 2013 has shown that it is likely a myth. This article discusses the study: http://healthland.time.com/2013/12/02/you-cant-be-fit-and-fat/[/QUOTE]

There was also a really big study done recently in Sweden, following 1.3 million men over nearly 30 years, that dismissed the idea of “fat but fit.” Basically, men of healthy weight were at lower risk than obese men regardless of activity level. ie, sedentary men of healthy body weight were lower risk than even the most active obese men.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151221071513.htm

[UnlacedDreams]

[QUOTE=Cascades;8697585]
Most account for 10-20lbs of weight gain, maximum. I know people who have had their thyroids removed who are of normal weight.

The fact is, 70% of the population in the US is fat. Not all of them can claim thyroid or metabolic issues. And none of them can defy the laws of thermodynamics to the point of creating energy (fat) out of thin air.[/QUOTE]

Like Sofia Vergara! Haha sorry I love that actress so that’s the first thing that popped into my head. She had thyroid cancer, so she had it removed.

[BigMama1]

[QUOTE=TickleFight;8697555]
You must be eating ridiculous amounts of unhealthy food on a daily basis if you really are that active and still obese. Something doesn’t add up.[/QUOTE]

Or I have a metabolic issue that causes weight gain, and take medication for a different issue that has weight gain as a side effect. Or I just sit around and eat McDonald’s all day. You can decide.

I weigh 205 and at 5’7, that’s obese. I’m not “big-boned” or “fluffy” or particularly muscular; I’m fat. Definitely I overeat, and that’s part of the problem, but not all of it. I could show you my FitBit data if you don’t believe my activity level, but I doubt it would change your mind. Some people just refuse to believe - despite newer metabolic research - that’s it’s not always as simple as calories in vs calories out. In case you’re interested I also have a low resting heart rate, low end of normal blood pressure and excellent blood cholesterol levels. Could / would I be healthier or fitter 50 pounds lighter? Without a doubt. Would I like to be 50 pounds lighter? Absolutely But that doesn’t mean I’m not fit and strong now. I am confident that I am fitter than a skinny person who does not exercise, smokes and drinks alcohol.

Regarding BMI - it simply looks at how much a person weighs, vs their height. It does not even consider body fat percentage, which is a far more telling number. Here’s a quick overview why BMI isn’t the best measure, referencing a recent UCLA study: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bmi-is-a-terrible-measure-of-health/

Look, people come in all shapes and sizes. Back to the OP’s topic - protect your horses, help your clients go as far as they can in the body they are in right now. If they want to go farther and weight is holding them back, tell them that. If they are happy with their riding progress, and on a horse suitable for their size, keep your opinio s on their wieght to yourself unless they ask.

[FatDinah]

I agree that our culture has become too blasé about seriously overweight people. It is scary that unless you qualify for the Biggest Loser, people just think they are “fluffy” or “curvy” or whatever euphemism.
OP, I think you have every OBLIGATION to say something to both women if you see the horse struggling. Would you be silent if one of them was using their spurs severely or an ill-fitting saddle?
I would tell both that unless they lose weight they cannot ride your schoolhorses (unless you have one appropriate and I don’t think anyone over 200 pounds ought to be on any horse except maybe a Belgian) and they cannot board/train with you.
Also, OP, as far as the young girl, you seem to care for her as a person. Would you be silent if she was smoking or doing drugs? Becoming obese (and she is with a 100 pound gain) is just as much a health risk as those behaviors.

[BigMama1]

^ Phew. Good thing my horse is part Belgian. Otherwise according to FatDinah I shouldn’t be riding him

[Gestalt]

[QUOTE=Prettypony88;8696438]
The second scenario is an older lady who has come for training with a horse she’s owned for about 4 years. Didn’t feel she was progressing with former trainer so moved on to my farm. Told me on the phone before coming she loves the horse, doesn’t want to ride any others, won’t sell, etc. etc. As it turns out the horse is a smallish (15 hh) Arabian cross, slightly built, and she is probably around 250 lbs. The horse is impeccably trained and she is a pretty balanced and knowledgable rider but the horse very obviously struggles. I’ve tried to hint gently to the effect that she might not have the same struggles on a different horse but she just doesn’t want to hear anything about giving up her dearly beloved mount. I’m feeling like the right thing to do in this case is just to sit her down and come out with it but again not easy!
Again, thanks for the suggestions![/QUOTE]

I’m not there to see, but maybe the Arab just isn’t in shape. I’ve seen quite a few “petite” Arabs that were stronger than a stout Halflinger. The endurance world is full of smaller Arabs (15h) with large men and women.

I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the number of riders I’ve seen that were truly too heavy for their horses.