Addressing a sensitive issue with clients

Agree with Lucassb. I’m so sick of acting like obesity just happens to people, and fit people are just lucky. I get some are naturally thin, some thick (I’m thick), but no one is naturally FIT and STRONG. That takes work. I get annoyed at the younger generation being so upset about so-called fat shaming that instead they are glorifying an unhealthy lifestyle. I’m not talking about the size 6 in Hollywood being treated like a fat cow, or the size 12 fit person being looked down on over the “skinny fat” bum. But the horses must come first - for the kid, it’s an unhealthy trend to put on that much weight that fast, and as others have said, she must know. If somehow society is coddling her and telling her this is fine, or she’ll just magically outgrow it, then help her out and as others have said, talk about healthy lifestyles - diet and exercise both. For the older owner with her beloved horse - if she loves the horse, then love it enough to manage your weight to ride it! She could lease said-horse to a more suitable rider and lease a larger horse to help her on her quest to fitness, but don’t claim to love the horse and then not be willing to look at how harmful your weight could be to the poor animal.

For the record, I hate the equestrian tendency toward size 0s/2s being seen as ideal - BUT I also hate the movement toward embracing being totally out of shape/unfit and not acknowledging personal accountability for fitness, NOT thinness - FITness.

[QUOTE=Lucassb;8696888]
Totally understand about the sanctuary aspect, but what about the horse in the equation? A horse that is “struggling” under the weight of its rider seems like a big problem to me.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know, I have to wonder based on OP’s language if she is imposing her own opinion[s] of the rider’s weight onto the horse. She hasn’t answered how she came to the conclusion the rider[s] were too heavy - the fact she says there are multiple instances in her clientele makes me really wonder if it is her opinion over fact. She says they struggle - but what does she mean? Working is hard, any horse should struggle a little. It’s not easy being a school horse. But, I could be wrong and OP could totally be right! Wouldn’t be the first time I was wrong about something.

Until she clears that up, I don’t know.

But I can say, in my lifetime with horses, I have only had one experience with a genuinely too-heavy rider on a too-small horse. Just one. Obviously the welfare of the horse is more important than someone’s feelings, but you need to make sure you are 100% right before telling someone kindly they are, in other words, “too heavy for that horse”.

I have met more overhorsed small-riders on too big horses than I could count. I think the growing “need” people have for seeing riders on big horses definitely factors in, and not always at the benefice of the ammy rider.

[QUOTE=Lucassb;8696888]
Totally understand about the sanctuary aspect, but what about the horse in the equation? A horse that is “struggling” under the weight of its rider seems like a big problem to me.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. You should not cause real life suffering to an animal in the service of your fee-fees.

If you are overweight and mounted appropriately and you’re happy with that? That’s great! You keep doing you!

But if you’re overweight and causing your horse discomfort, I absolutely think it is in your (and your horse’s) best interest for someone to say something.

Maybe if we addressed rapid and excessive weight gain early, instead of tip toeing around the issue, we wouldn’t be living in a world where 40% of adult women are obese.

Being fat sucks. Been there. And I really wish that someone had pulled me aside when I was 19 and helped me get my shit together then, because as it was, it took me until I was in my late 20s. And now I look back at all of that time that I wasted being uncomfortable and unhappy and it makes me sad.

Maybe someone should help OPs young client rather than tip toe around her weight issue. It’s going to be a lot easier to help her now than another 100 lbs from now when she really can’t ride anymore.

Riding, or at least riding well, is a high-skills, fast-paced, high-risk sport, up there with downhill skiing, white water kayaking, etc. For those sports, no one questions that you need to be in good fitness, and participants self-select for athletic ability.

Many excellent riders (pros, coaches, trainers) have the ability, inclination, and fitness to participate in these other high-skill, high-risk, sports. But riding at the lower levels attracts a large number of people who are not athletic at all, not fit at all, who do no other high-skill, high-speed, sports, and wouldn’t dream of even trying one. They are attracted to riding because they love horses, and because at the lower, beginner, end of riding, being a passenger on a horse can compensate for not having much physical strength or skill on the ground, or in the saddle. Riding a horse can be very empowering, in this way.

The problem, though, is that this means you get far more unfit, unathletic, people wanting to be riders, than you would get wanting to downhill ski, scuba dive, race sail boats, rock climb, etc.

Weight in the United States is very directly linked to economic status, class, race, and region of the country. I would expect that in an expensive hunter/jumper barn on one of the coasts, you are going to see a lot slim young women, the kind who are slim enough already but then are susceptible to fad diets and eating disorders on top of that. This is the kind of environment where girls can get shamed about having any body fat whatsoever, and where the prevailing competitive atmosphere would encourage everyone to go for any advantage whatsoever, whether it is good or bad for their health (or for their horse).

In this environment, as an instructor, you might get students who were “thick,” and never going to look as willowy on a horse as the 5 foot 10 115 pound child. You might get a few adults or returning riders who were 20 or 30 pounds overweight. But you probably would never see a truly obese person from one year to the next. And, interestingly, this is the kind of environment where large horses are currently valued, the kind of place where re-riders want the 17 hand dream warmblood now.

In other parts of the country, almost everyone right up to the upper middle classes is over weight, and the prevalence of actual obesity is much higher too. There is less of a culture of physical fitness, fewer places to work out, and in some cases a climate that makes outdoor activity unpleasant. There is less general information about diet and nutrition, even among people who are otherwise well informed. And there can be fewer options for healthy eating, as well as cultural pressures to eat and enjoy high calorie foods.

I can totally imagine that if you were running a beginner riding program in this kind of area, that you would see many clients who were 20 to 30 pounds overweight, and a significant number that were clinically obese, to the extent that it interfered with their position and balance in the saddle. And if you were in a discipline or area that favored small horses (arabs, QH), that would make the problem worse.

I’ve lived in both types of places in the US, not in horses but in academia, and saw the clear differences in body type in my colleagues and in my students, and how it correlated to life-long patterns of eating and exercise, as well as to the prevalent norm. Sometimes I think the only options are anorexia or obesity, that there is very little room for a middle ground of sturdy and healthy, at least for women.

So, depending on where the OP is located, and what the average body type of the average young woman in her area is, she might in fact be seeing far more genuinely overweight or obese students than anyone in a high-end East Coast barn could ever imagine.

I think that in this case it’s a black and white issue. Research has been done and proven that horses struggle over a certain percentage of body weight. Especially with the lesson horse, which doesn’t belong to the student, it is the owner’s responsibility to point out to a rider if they are outside if the horse’s comfort zone.

I work in HR and am very good at being diplomatic but in this case I would be blunt but kind. If needed offer resources for the research done on % of body weight research in horses. Make it a scientific, black and white issue and then make sure that you are sticking to it with all riders and not just this particular student.

I think the more you dance around it the more uncomfortable the rider will be.

Ultimately with an animal involved we are all responsible for knowing and understanding basic animal husbandry. If this person were risking the horse’s health in a different way (turning out with polo wraps on, not providing water, locking in a small area without any turnout) we would all be very comfortable saying or doing something about it. Honestly I don’t see this any differently. You’re not telling someone to lose weight, just explaining guidelines and keeping the horse safe and sound.

Isn’t it pretty obvious if a horse is struggling? I had a friend ride my horse and it took, oh 30 sec, to see that she was going to be too big for my horse. Not fat, but too big.

[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8697030]
Isn’t it pretty obvious if a horse is struggling? I had a friend ride my horse and it took, oh 30 sec, to see that she was going to be too big for my horse. Not fat, but too big.[/QUOTE]

Maybe my perspective is jaded. Maybe my response below is deserving of a different thread, as it is somewhat on a tangent.

When someone I don’t know says their trainer wants them to get a different horse, I do admit I am suspect on the ‘whys’ of the matter. Some trainers do genuinely want to see their clients successful and happy – but I have met so, so many trainers who push ammies to buy $$ horses that may or may not be appropriate for the ammy.

Why do they do it? Commi$$ions and training money for when horse proves too much for ammies. It really is a perfect (slimy!) business model.

There is an ever increasing trend for people to think they need Super Massive Humungo Mounts. Point in case: every horse ever is listed as 16/17h and no one can sell a 15.3h horse. You’re over 5 ft tall? Sorry, you need 17h+, at least.

Kind of seems to me that this colors a lot of perspectives for trainers, including the young[er] ones.

Obviously, if a horse is genuinely “overhorsed” by his rider a discussion is merited as no horse should suffer in order to spare someone’s feelings. But you still need to be 100% backed up by your conviction by factual evidence from the horse, or a vet, or an expert; you cannot act on opinion alone.

I tend to question anyone who comes on here with multiple riders who are too heavy, supposedly. I’ve known people with body dysmorphia who think anyone with a little extra weight is too heavy to even ride.

100 lbs of weight gain (if the student has shared this is the amount gained, not someone just trying to guess) is very significant in a short time. I suspect there was either depression or some type of mental or physical illness or body issue which caused that fast a gain. Late teenagers don’t tend to put on that kind of weight that quickly otherwise. How I approached it would depend on the student and what she has shared. If she’s shared about the weight gain/causes/mentioned how many lbs it has been, kindly saying that right now the horse needs smaller riders, but as they work together she can work back toward riding it, that is making them a team to help make it an option.

I don’t know what “the horse struggled” means. My mare struggled with using her hind end the other day because she’s learning new ways to carry herself and doesn’t have the strength built yet. That affects my opinion on what to say with the other rider. If the horse is sinking in the back and having trouble lifting it, mentioning that and suggesting long line work to strengthen the back (knowing it should also help rider fitness) is good. Explain the symptoms you see, rather than trying to just tell the rider “you can’t ride this horse.” Either she actually DOES care that much about this horse and will take action, or she does not like being told so and doesn’t have interest in learning, and will likely find another trainer soon until someone just turns a blind eye.

If the rider is too heavy for a school horse, and requests riding it for whatever reason, I just tell them they are too big for the school horse and assign them one that is appropriate. For someone that is not appropriate for the horse they own, I will again, tell them that it is not appropriate. Arabians can carry more weight than some other breeds, but 250 sounds like it would be alot for the horse you describe. If the rider is too heavy for the horse, I would tell her that she is too big for the horse and the horse is physically struggling with it and a larger horse would be more appropriate. I wouldn’t make a big deal of the weight issue, would probably use the word “big” rather than heavy, but would be honest because it is in the horse’s best interest. I have in the past had riders too heavy for my school horses. I set out to solve that problem, and now have three draft crosses that work for me; I usually can accomodate whatever weight or height rider with these horses. Two are short draft crosses, so work for those overweight short riders. One is taller, and will take a taller rider’s leg, as well as carry weight. Because younger kids are getting heavier and larger too, I have upgraded my ponies so that my ponies are chunkier style ponies that can accomodate a heavier child. I still have some finer and smaller horses in my program, but did conscientiously make the change due to the change in riders that I see coming. I am getting not only heavier riders to ride, but also taller people to ride than I did years ago.

[QUOTE=piccolopony;8697023]
I think that in this case it’s a black and white issue. Research has been done and proven that horses struggle over a certain percentage of body weight.[/QUOTE]

Could you produce some? Most of what I’ve seen on the subject has been in the form of op/ed type of anecdotal ruminating, posts on bulletin boards like this one, and also very many blogs.

[QUOTE=beowulf;8697056]
Maybe my perspective is jaded. Maybe my response below is deserving of a different thread, as it is somewhat on a tangent.

When someone I don’t know says their trainer wants them to get a different horse, I do admit I am suspect on the ‘whys’ of the matter. Some trainers do genuinely want to see their clients successful and happy – but I have met so, so many trainers who push ammies to buy $$ horses that may or may not be appropriate for the ammy.

Why do they do it? Commi$$ions and training money for when horse proves too much for ammies. It really is a perfect (slimy!) business model.

There is an ever increasing trend for people to think they need Super Massive Humungo Mounts. Point in case: every horse ever is listed as 16/17h and no one can sell a 15.3h horse. You’re over 5 ft tall? Sorry, you need 17h+, at least.

Kind of seems to me that this colors a lot of perspectives for trainers, including the young[er] ones.

Obviously, if a horse is genuinely “overhorsed” by his rider a discussion is merited as no horse should suffer in order to spare someone’s feelings. But you still need to be 100% backed up by your conviction by factual evidence from the horse, or a vet, or an expert; you cannot act on opinion alone.[/QUOTE]

I’m talking about genuinely over-horsed, yes.

Funny thing is I see many smaller horses now, vs 5 yrs ago. It’s all how you look it.

I no longer use those trainers that just see a check, no way. I can see your point but it’s no longer my reality! thank goodness. But yes, anytime a trainer makes a suggestion it really is the owners’ final say- just as with anything if they own the horse. however, trainer can also decide to not work with them if they continue- esp if they own the horse. I pay for advice on my training program, and I consider this another “arm” of the program just like I took my trainer’s advice seriously to consider a new saddle.

I always find weight threads interesting, this bb seems to employ a beat around the bush method. Either ignore weight as an issue or deflect and lie to the student to avoid hurting their feelings. Every trainer has to submit a vet report confirming that the horse is being harmed and at least three Dr.s signatures verifying that the rider is overweight. Mystifies me how so much time is spent not being direct when the welfare of another being is at stake.

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8697158]
I always find weight threads interesting, this bb seems to employ a beat around the bush method. Either ignore weight as an issue or deflect and lie to the student to avoid hurting their feelings. Every trainer has to submit a vet report confirming that the horse is being harmed and at least three Dr.s signatures verifying that the rider is overweight. Mystifies me how so much time is spent not being direct when the welfare of another being is at stake.[/QUOTE]

That’s a little excessive.

I don’t think anyone is saying to lie or to just continue to let the overweight rider ride the clearly burdened horse.

However, there is a very vast and wide difference between what people view as overweight. Up thread someone said a 5’5 rider at 135 (or some similar number) was overweight! :eek:

Body dysmorphia is alive and thriving in the horse world too. A rider that is 160 and 5’6" is one person’s “perfectly fine” and other person’s “hideously obese”.

The important thing is to have facts, not opinions, when weighing in on the matter.

[QUOTE=beowulf;8697171]
That’s a little excessive.

I don’t think anyone is saying to lie or to just continue to let the overweight rider ride the clearly burdened horse.

However, there is a very vast and wide difference between what people view as overweight. Up thread someone said a 5’5 rider at 135 (or some similar number) was overweight! :eek:

Body dysmorphia is alive and thriving in the horse world too. A rider that is 160 and 5’6" is one person’s “perfectly fine” and other person’s “hideously obese”.

The important thing is to have facts, not opinions, when weighing in on the matter.[/QUOTE]

Facts:

5’5" and 135lbs = 22.5 BMI
5’6" and 160lbs = 25.8 BMI

Normal weight = 18.5 - 24.9
Overweight = 25 - 29.9

To be “normal weight” at 250 lbs, you’d have to be 7’ tall.

The OP is talking about two people who are obese. Not someone looking to lose a few vanity pounds.

Here is an interesting article. I thought about the Icelandic horses since they are small and Icelandic people are quite tall, average male is over 5’10".

http://iceryder.net/weight.html

[QUOTE=Arelle;8696861]
Do not ever, ever, ever comment on your students weight. Ever.

I don’t care - young, old, underweight, overweight. Do not comment. It is not your place. [/QUOTE]

It totally depends on the student, the instructor, and their relationship.

I have struggled for years with instructors who would not have these conversations, even though I was fully aware that weight (and not just fitness) were absolutely an issue that was affecting my riding. It frustrated me no end, and I drifted away from an instructor or two that refused to engage on the conversation. I needed support, and I knew that, but I wasn’t getting it.

Now that I have an instructor who will have open and honest conversations, I’ve made significant progress–with much more to go, but at least it’s going.

There is no single approach that will work for every student. Some of us really do want to talk about weight (and not just fitness).

OP, unfortunately this means you have to play part psychologist to figure out what approach is actually going to work for your students, and it may take different approaches for each of them.

But a student who tends to be pretty blunt/directly is probably more open to a blunt/direct conversation about fitness (from which you can gauge whether they will be receptive to a talk about weight) than one who tends to need more encouragement and indirect commentary in lessons.

[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8697213]
are they obese? or just bigger in size?

From the OP:[/QUOTE]

One weighs 250 lbs. Unless she’s also 6’6", she’s obese.

The other gained 100 lbs. Assuming she was a healthy weight before (not underweight), she’d have to be obese. There isn’t 100lbs of wiggle room between healthy and obese.

Again, not a value judgement. Just a statement of facts.

[QUOTE=Cascades;8697219]
One weighs 250 lbs. Unless she’s also 6’6", she’s obese.

The other gained 100 lbs. Assuming she was a healthy weight before (not underweight), she’d have to be obese. There isn’t 100lbs of wiggle room between healthy and obese.

Again, not a value judgement. Just a statement of facts.[/QUOTE]

ok, I scanned the OP and I wasn’t sure so thanks for these clarifications!

[QUOTE=Silverbridge;8697078]
Could you produce some? Most of what I’ve seen on the subject has been in the form of op/ed type of anecdotal ruminating, posts on bulletin boards like this one, and also very many blogs.[/QUOTE]

http://www.j-evs.com/article/S0737-0806(07)00413-3/abstract

and an article that discusses it

http://horsetalk.co.nz/news/2008/03/011.shtml#axzz4B6wYBKYH