Adults in Pony Club as Traditional Members ... for or against?

[kdow]

As an adult who might join horsemasters, I can kind of see both sides. On the one hand, I don’t know how much I would WANT to be doing things together with kids. Sometimes kids and adults approach things differently and that is fine, but it means a mixed group isn’t going to work so well.

On the other hand, if it is an area where the membership is unbalanced or low in both groups, I’d rather see the groups mixed more to provide more educational opportunities. I mean, something like a bandaging or grooming demonstration can probably be done in a way that works for kids and adults at the same time, or clinics, or anything else that benefits from having a larger group to make it practically or financially sensible.

[Laurierace]

I would love for our club to offer horsemasters since my daughter is off to college but I too would not want to be in mixed kid and adult groups.

[eventfullmum]

There are so many great points here! I do not understand why the National Office would not take the opportunity to hear from membership before making announcements of such magnitude? Co-op with a club, fill clinics, or lessons… all great and when clubs have need due to geography they can make choices which are already available to them with the HMX program. I agree with IFG & Fergs.

There are so many issues, but to start HMX competed at Championships in the same divisions as the Youth. That is a fact and recorded in the USEA results. Having adults in the aisle at rally as competitor changes the unique experience Youth have in PC. Same for a stressful rating, what high schooler wants to stand next to a PhD,or Attorney and answer a National Examiner in round-table testing? Today they can say the clubs or regions do not have to include HMX, but they already have integrated HMX into the general population of Youth before they announced it and have made changes behind memberships backs. So what they say today will change tomorrow.

I have no problem with adults wanting to learn, I am an adult AM life-long learner, but I would not choose to join a GirlScout troop to learn how to knit! I would go to an adult rider group to learn with my peers and not expect a Youth organization to change to meet my needs. Has anyone noticed USPC change the Mission Statement and removed: Program for YOUTH,Developing Responsibility, and Moral Judgement? Seems they did not ask membership to fundamentally change the org. we chose to join. That is a big problem for fundraising and they have just eliminated many specific Grants for youth, and people who wish to donate time, $,and talents. There will be a huge longterm impact.

Similar, look at the impact of allowing unlimited age rating to your ‘A’. First they have devalued what kids did back in the traditional days. I think they should adopt a small ‘a’ if not achieved in traditional method. Also I think we’ve seen an impact on developing young riders seeking to go onto FEI level. We had graduates ‘A’ at 21 ten years ago, we now have more C’s at that age range. So what seems simple today, has a huge longterm impact.

The HMX must be kept separate at rallies, Championships, ratings, and should have their own set of by-laws and be independent of the Youth programs. They are taking grey areas and making a new muddy organization. Fix what is broken and don’t mess with success! If they are in need of $ cut budgets, salaries, travel,building overhead,…something we all have had to do in this economy. Above all be honest with your membership!

[Denzel]

I haven’t read all of the replies yet as I am at work, but I just wanted to chime in and say that I think allowing adults into PC is great! I don’t think it will change the dynamics in my specific club, as we don’t really operate as a super traditional PC.

The reason I chose to stick with it is largely because of the cost. As a young working amateur, I can get 1 lesson a week for 9 months of the year, for marginally more than it would cost me per month for a regular flat lesson with the same instructor. Because of PC, I can afford to do 2 lessons per week.

Also, I don’t think having adults in PC is going to impact the “independent study” nature of PC, management of your club has a much larger impact. Some kids will always be more needy and less willing to do things themselves than others. I have been a lesson helper for many years for the D-D1 lessons in my club, and there are some kids that are so eager to learn and do things for themselves, and there are some that are really in it just to putz around on a pony and will whine that they need help and they can’t do certain things. It is up to each club to manage issues like that by reminding the helpers and instructors of the goals and policies of PC.

[eventfullmum]

Another legal issue PC has opened themselves up to, is putting kids at risk. As Denzel points out ," I have been a lesson helper for many years for the D-D1 lessons in my club" I am curious if you have taken the Protecting Youth certification, or been Background Checked to work with the youth. As a DC,JT DC… we are required to take these tests and measures to monitor our instructors/volunteers…protect our youth and be aware of potential threats. Now my kids will be integrated with unknown adults at rally and I will not be permitted back at the barn with them. I work with amazing adults now, but in the past before these requirements I’m sure some of the adults would not have passed those checks and they are no longer with PC!
Today we have learned via email from the National Office what “will be”:
“5.) The Horsemasters integration plan will be detailed, giving everyone a complete picture of the changes for a successful future.”

To understand the Plan, which is being developed without our input, we must attend the Annual convention to learn about what is being implemented. USEA wisely announced a proposed rule change , heard the comments of many concerned, and decided to back up and look at a revision. I can only HOPE USPC would be so wise and do the same!

[SuzieQNutter]

For us it is twice a month that we have a muster and you can then use the grounds in between if you want.

So you are free to use the dressage arena or the cross country course or showjumping jumps until they are closed with an upcoming competition, which could be a week or more beforehand.

Most kids need their parents to get to the grounds, I think it is fair that Mum and Dad can ride at the same time.

[Desert_Topaz]

Thinking on the thought of having some way to note A’s that were gained before being adults and not. I thought of having the adult one being the AA, but then realized another group uses those two letters together. Then there would be the AHA: “Yes, I’m an Ahhh haaa” Both would bring me tons of amusement, but probably not the best choice.

[EWim15]

I’m an UL graduate from back in the days when the age limit was 21 and there was just B, HA, A.

The introduction of HM was well after my time so I don’t know what is allowed now, although I have some idea from reading the previous posts. I’m generally supportive of HM making up numbers in order to make clinics, some rallies and other programs more cost effective. If it means you can bring in a clinician for a day that you could otherwise - great! Or if clubs in more isolated areas can run rallies - that’s great too. The USPC system offers a great structure for everyone to learn so the more people that can take advantage of that the better. If DC’s want to integrate so they have more oversight then that’s fine. And some differentiation should be left up the club/region as to how things are implemented.

However, for the specific structure I do think certain things should be kept separate. Kids and adults learn differently and perform differently under pressure. There were also a lot of great teamwork and self-reliance skills that I gained through the USPC system that I do not think would be the same if kids and adults were mixed in all cases. Plus, really as a kid/teenager you do want to get away from the adults a bit! It was always such good fun doing things as a team at our regional 3-day rallies.

Here’s what I personally things should be separate:

• actual lessons (so not mixed kids and adults but 1 lesson with kids then another with adults).
• Rallies that are over 1 day, so regional 3-day and nationals. I don’t even really like the idea of mixed 1day rallies with separate divisions but I can see how that might make a rally feasible where they wouldn’t be otherwise.
  -Ratings. If HM can go up to an A (I had thought it was only C2?) then I think it should be specified it is a HM-A rather than an under 25 A. Part of what was set the USPC ratings apart was that you only had a certain amount of time to do them. Sure it made it harder, but it also made achieving the ratings that much more rewarding and that much more of an accomplishment. I’m even slightly against having moved the age limit to 25, but I can see why it was done.

The USPC certainly has to move with the times and find ways to attract new members. However, they should think carefully about how they integrate these two groups. It will very definitely change the atmosphere and the experience for the kids and the adults if the two systems were completely integrated.

Maybe they should also look at how to attract more people to the system they already have rather than to constantly change the system in hopes of attracting more members.

[EWim15]

@Highflyer;7908284

My bridle has had years of not having the underside scraped with a dull butterknife. My body sponge is defiantly unlabelled. I’m pretty sure that if I have a currycomb in my trailer grooming kit, it’s plastic. And I swore when I turned 21 that I would never again polish the soles of my boots!

LOL And I can barely go near a horse if I’m not wearing a belt and if my shirt doesn’t have a collar I feel like a complete slob!

[Romily_Bernard]

[QUOTE=SevenDogs;7909433]
I disagree with this proposal.

I am fine with mixing HM riders in with youth riders in Pony Club lessons, but I don’t know of anything that keeps you from doing that now? I am also in favor of smaller clubs forming cooperatives to get the most “bang for their buck” out of instructors, but again, I don’t see any reason that you can’t do that now.

I am not ok with adults competing at Rallies or obtaining traditional ratings. It was formed as a youth program and should remain as such.

A lot of the changes at Pony Club appear desperate, and this is a primary example. What USPC needs to do it start making it fun. Yes, horses are work… yes, there are no shortcuts…and yes, we need well rounded horsemen and women. But, there is a way to do all of that and make it fun.

Tack needs to be cleaned and boots polished, but a lot of the adults seem to get a thrill out of berating kids and making it militaristic, which is not going to keep kids coming back for more.

I now have a 7 year old in Pony Club. Luckily, I have a lot of influence over how the club is run and it is my instructor and my horse. We plan to keep it fun. Otherwise, I will yank him in a fat minute in favor of just regular lessons, if he doesn’t yank himself first. I absolutely will not tolerate the few adults that seem to stroke their own egos at the expense of the kids (99% of adults are great – the others are very damaging).

Right now, Pony Club is his favorite exta curricular activity. I think Pony Club needs to realize there is a lot of competition for kids time and they better find a way to keep it fun.[/QUOTE]

This. I agree SevenDogs. Although I would go a bit farther and say it’s more than just the 1% being evil. I would also say many of the parents need to get a grip, but that applies to all the youth sports I’ve seen lately

[Romily_Bernard]

I’m reading through some of these replies and cracking up. I love that I’m not the only one with PC emotional/mental scars. To this DAY, I always feel like I need to wear a belt to the barn and we won’t even talk about the Nikes I wear instead of paddock boots.

All jokes aside though, if I had to do the whole thing over again, I would. The education was excellent. The people…meh. But you could say that about a lot of things.

I love the idea of older riders getting a shot at a similar opportunity. I run into so many adult beginner riders who would benefit from that sort of guidance–and they would RELISH the lessons. It’s tough for them. Instructors don’t always have time to educate on the horse management side of things.

I’m not sure where we (as an organization/horse people body/whatever) should really be stacking our resources. In kids who may not stick with it after high school? Or in adults who come to it later in life? So few of us who rode as children in traditional PC are still riding now as adults…at least in my experience.

[Highflyer]

Having seen it from both sides, the problem is not so much that the volunteer parents are evil as that they are not horsey and don’t really understand the reasons why things are done (and which things are important and which are silly), so they focus very hard on the pony club pin being in the right place and don’t question that an 8 year old D-2 is using a gag bit on a horse that is jumping 18".

[Sticky_Situation]

I was in Pony Club and graduated at 21 as an H, shortly before they changed the age limit. I really learned a lot in Pony Club, and became a much better horsewoman from the experience (and yes, I also had the ‘pony club way’ burned into my consciousness and I still find myself cringing when I see legs that aren’t wrapped to pony club standards, and it feels unnatural to set foot inside a barn without boots on … Even if I’m not handling horses!).

That said, I was a little leery of changing the maximum age to 25 back when that was done, and I don’t think it is a good idea to include adults alongside the kids, particularly when it comes to rallies. To me, a lot of what pony club is about is more than just riding and caring for horses … It helps kids form friendships with other kids with similar interests, and teaches them valuable life lessons along the way. One of the greatest things about rallies was that you were on teams with other kids, competing against teams of others kids, and learned to help ech other out rather than being dependent on adult assistance. Even if the rules essentially stayed the same for youth members competing, I think including adults as competitors in rallies would cheapen the experience for the kids.

I’m not opposed to Horsemasters … In fact, I think it’s a great idea, but needs to remain somewhat separate from the kids’ pony club. I don’t have a problem with combining unmounted lessons, or even mounted lessons of the group size is too small to make dividing the groups practical … But I think if adults want to compete at rallies, they need to be kept in a separate division from the kids. (I’m pretty sure the kids would soundly kick the adults’ butts more often than not, but it isn’t just about the scores … It’s about the experience). Also, when I was in pony club, a large part of it was that the older kids served as teachers and role models for the younger kids… I think including adults would change the dynamic.

I don’t think pony club would have had the same appeal to me as a kid if the club had included adults in the same group. If membership of kids is dwindling … Maybe more outreach is needed.

[Mango20]

Now that the deadline is looming for horsemasters to integrate into clubs or form their own clubs, does anyone have any updates about how it’s working in their club/region? Our club needs to decide on this soon. Have you had any reluctance from instructors to teach adults and/or discount their fee for them like they do for the kids? Any issues from the standpoint of club administration?

[Rallycairn]

[QUOTE=Romily Bernard;7913762]
…

I’m not sure where we (as an organization/horse people body/whatever) should really be stacking our resources. In kids who may not stick with it after high school? Or in adults who come to it later in life? So few of us who rode as children in traditional PC are still riding now as adults…at least in my experience.[/QUOTE]

So often you hear the argument that special attention should be paid to recruiting youth because “they are the future of the sport” – the thinking being presumably that kids will either stick with the sport/activity or come back to it later.

But like you, I wonder if that isn’t a bit of a logical fallacy. If kids don’t stick with it or come back to it later in life, why not just recruit the retiring adults with disposable income and available time who are coming forward to do horse sports, dog sports, and so on? Such folks will still likely have a decade or more to support the endeavor – about the same length of time as underage kids before they turn 18 – and when they age out, just attract the next cohort of retiring adults. Again, many of whom will have 10-20 or more active years anyway. Early retirees are gonna be riding for decades.

Not that that applies specifically to PC of course, especially since it was started as a youth organization. But the “ZOMG we must have youth in order for this sport to have a future” argument is not entirely persuasive to me. Just keep recruiting those folks with time and disposable income – AWA youth, too, of course. I’m certainly not suggesting they be excluded!

So basically I think PC may be on the right track with including more for adults, actually. Though there will obviously be lots of practical and philosophical tangles to tease out.

But I was never fortunate enough to belong to PC so my comments are completely as an outsider.

[WeDoItAll]

We have integrated adults

[QUOTE=Mango20;8218409]
Now that the deadline is looming for horsemasters to integrate into clubs or form their own clubs, does anyone have any updates about how it’s working in their club/region? Our club needs to decide on this soon. Have you had any reluctance from instructors to teach adults and/or discount their fee for them like they do for the kids? Any issues from the standpoint of club administration?[/QUOTE]

I am in the NW Region in Washington state. Our club (I am the DC) has integrated adults into our pony club. We did hold a sponsor’s meeting before we started and passed some club policies that made sense to us so we could ensure that we stayed somewhat youth focused. We have different dues amount for traditional (youth) members vs non-traditional (adult) members. The adults pay more (but it is still not a lot). We included a statement that the intention was for the club to remain with more youth than adults (although I have to say that right now that’s a “just barely”) - but the DC makes the ultimate decision to add more members.

The dues also covers different things for traditional vs non-traditional members. At least at this point. But our club is not the norm when compared across the country: our dues are VERY low; we do a major fundraiser to bring in most of the money to support the club; the club pays for mounted and unmounted instruction as well as one testing and one rally per member per year for our traditional members.

Our meetings haven’t seen a huge difference other than we have more groups. We do occasionally mix youth and adult for mounted lesson purposes, when it makes sense.

I will say that one thing of interest is that the adults sometimes feel like the lessons aren’t “progressing” the way they expected. I think they are more used to getting to the “fun stuff” faster and aren’t as patient to working their way there. We have had no problem with instructors being unwilling to work with them - and from a financial perspective I think they realize that the adult members are the strong support for the club so they haven’t charged us a different rate or anything.

Overall it has worked out well.

[connemarafan]

It piqued my interest having emmigrated from England where as a child I came up through pony club ranks. I never really seriously competed for PC team spots as my ponies were aiming at other disciplines outside of dressage/SJ and eventing so we were usually overlooked but nonetheless things I learned I still use today. (I still cringe when I see people turning their horses back towards them when running up for the vet, I’ve even seen this at UL events!) I think the thing missing here in the US is the riding club level, catering to adult amateurs, with it’s own championships (dressage, SJ, eventing) dedicated clubs can field teams so you still get the team aspect yet focused on adults with a lower age limit of 21.

[Duramax]

I just got done doing a camp for Lake Shore Region and had a very positive experience teaching their Horsemasters group. For the most part the HM’s were in their own groups (helpful from an instructor’s standpoint as I have a different way of teaching adults than children). I even got to do an HB prep with a Horsemaster, her eyes didn’t glaze over as quickly as the kids! :lol:

[Desert_Topaz]

My horsemasters group has formed into our own club, just got word of approval last week.

The main reason we did not join the local kids was due to finances. We wanted to keep our adult funds separate from the kids funds. In addition, there are two kids clubs in the large area my horsemasters come from (currently it’s 2.5 hours east/west between my furthest members). By becoming our own entity we can be a resource for both clubs and it’s important to some of us that we be a resource for both. We have also spent the last few years forming an identity we were reluctant to lose, even if we did have to change our name to form our new club. I had enough members that felt strongly enough about splitting off to be willing to fill the board positions, so we split.

The decision was easy for us. I feel for those of you that are having a hard time deciding.

[2Below]

I know this is an older thread but I’d like to re-visit it. I’m a PC graduate and have volunteered for our local club for 17 years in every role possible but have been the instructor for the past 7 or so. I was originally resistant about HMX because I felt if adults were interested in learning more, they could become a sponsor, volunteer and help our club. But they don’t, at least not consistently. We have always been a small club (under 10) and currently sit at 3 kids. But I’ve had a surge of interest in HMX now that they can be part of the regular club. Being a member means they will be more invested in the club and the kids will certainly benefit from their participation. I immediately have 3 HMX members and haven’t even reached out to others who have expressed interest in the past. I’m not sure how I’ll structure meetings yet, or how it will work and welcome any input from others, but I think HMX will keep our club going and provide an infrastructure of volunteers that we desperately need. All our regional activities are at least 4 hours away, having a few more adults willing to drive kids, or haul horses will be a huge bonus for us.

So if you’ve been running a club with HMX members for a while, I’d love to know how it’s going, what works and what maybe did not.