Advertising as Trainer = ammy?

[Fun_Size]

Was at a horse show about 2 weeks ago, and noticed a great rider / horse pair in the a/a classes. (was there visiting a friend and being the chief water bottle holder and spare horse holder)

Later when friend and I were looking at results, I noticed the name of the horse and did a quick search on him (because he was young and cute, I was being nosey as horse people do …). The first couple of pages that popped up was the website of a local, well known show barn’s “trainers” page, and this rider was listed as Trainer # 3 on the website.

I’m so confused. Rider is registered as an ammy. Now maybe they have gone and given up their pro status (and would have had to go be re-classified as an ammy, and USEF says they did on the website), but can you still be listed as a trainer at a show barn as an ammy?

I’m so dang careful to follow the rules and have always done so, since I didn’t start riding until I was an adult. I even had a very informational email exchange with USEF earlier this year about horse expense reimbursement, how that works, and they even said that even if you are following the rules perfectly you still shouldn’t advertise it because people will complain and they don’t want to deal with it (different rule, totally, but the “it’s fine just don’t post about it” bothered me).

Anyway. What’s my next step. Nothing? Let friend deal because it’s her home state / circuit? Let it go?

Usually I’m a “let it go” person but this rider absolutely cleaned up the A/As in good company and it feels weird. Not that I don’t have ammy friends that also clean up any class they walk into, I’m not equating registration to skill level at all. But rider’s show record apparently stretches back year and years for this barn, and like I said, maybe she hasn’t sat on any horse but her own for the past 12 months or so, but I am, for once, not sure on the right way to go here.

I know there is lots of weird grey stuff happening under the ammy (and other) rules. But, dang.

[2bayboys]

No, an amateur can’t be a trainer. Perhaps the website isn’t updated, or you were viewing an archived version? If they’ve been reinstated as an amateur, it would be in that rider’s best interest to try and have those references to her training past removed, as I imagine it might lead to protests. Not sure what you can do about it though.

[dmveventer]

Barn websites are often woefully out of date and not always a good source of information. Being listed as a trainer on a website doesn’t violate the rules if there’s no actual pro activity happening. If that’s the only thing you have to go on I would drop it. You don’t know this person and if I’m understanding your post it’s not your home state or a circuit you’re familiar with, so you’re not in a good position to know what’s going on.

@Fun_Size

Now maybe they have gone and given up their pro status (and would have had to go be re-classified as an ammy, and USEF says they did on the website)

So USEF says they’ve gone through the process to re-certify as an amateur, but you are doubting if that’s true? Much more likely the barn just hasn’t updated the website. I believe there was a rule change a few years ago that shortened the waiting period for younger pros to less than 12 months to change their status so that could be a factor here too.

[fivestrideline]

@dmveventer

Being listed as a trainer on a website doesn’t violate the rules if there’s no actual pro activity happening. If that’s the only thing you have to go on I would drop it. You don’t know this person and if I’m understanding your post it’s not your home state or a circuit you’re familiar with, so you’re not in a good position to know what’s going on.

This. Especially since it appears they went through the proper USEF channels for reinstatement.

You weren’t a competitor or trainer at the show and are not local or involved in the area, correct? Not currently riding or competing?

Best to stay in your lane. If your friend or their trainer has a concern, it would be totally fine to send them the publicly available information you found and let them go from there. There’s a difference between actively hush-hushing or ignoring rule violations and being the sideline ammy police.

I know this isn’t what you meant so take this as a general comment - but I hate it when people see an amateur with good results cleaning up in the ring and automatically assume they either bought their way in (and can’t actually ride) or are a professional in disguise (and CAN actually ride???). Can’t have it both ways, and amateurs are perfectly capable of being fantastic riders.

[Janet]

The rules USED to say that if you “advertised” as a trainer (whether you actually ever got paid or not) you were not an amateur. But that rule wording went away a couple of years ago.

If you are curious, you can email amateurinquiry@usef.org and ask for clarification. You do not have to name any names.

[Xctrygirl]

Ok so there have been updates and theoretically it IS possible to be an advertised trainer* and be an ammy.

BUT, you are only allowed to be a “trainer” in certain disciplines, NOT Hunter/Jumper/Dressage/Eventing.

From: https://www.usef.org/media/equestrian-weekly/usef-amateur-task-force-completes-work-on-amateur

“Amateurs in the American Saddlebred, Saddle Seat Equitation, Morgan, Arabian, Andalusian/Lusitano, National Show Horse, Paso Fino, and Western divisions are now able to teach basic riding lessons to beginner, non-competing riders in a part-time capacity under the supervision of a USEF member with professional status.”

So welcome to the grey area… One a website of a barn that HAS one/some of these specialties, a rider who is a H/J Ammy conceivably COULD be listed as a Morgan trainer.

Now… if we are talking a H/J rider and a H/J barn, then no. It’s a no no.

But yes you can be an Ammy and a trainer, of some USEF disciplines.

As always, the best path forward is to email the USEF Amateur Inquiry email account.

amateurinquiry@usef.org

Em

[Fun_Size]

No I hear you, and I agree. Friend also said “oh yeah that’s a local trainer she’s been with X barn since she was a junior” and then we looked at each other and went “wait what” because it was an a/a class. Again, not that I’m questioning the USEF website, I’m not. It just made me go “hmmm”

[Fun_Size]

Thanks!! This was a 100% h/j barn with only warmbloods, so no exceptions there.

[Fun_Size]

Re: website updates. Website has been updated this year with current boarding rates and show results, so it looks pretty current.

[Arzny]

Did they actually place them?

I’m asking because my trainer has ridden my horse in an A/A class, with permission of the steward, after I fell off in the warmup. He did not pin and it wasn’t officially listed in the results, but he was listed in the ringside results.

[trubandloki]

@Arzny

Did they actually place them?

From the original post. It sounds like not only was this rider placed, but she places quite well.

@Fun_Size

this rider absolutely cleaned up the A/As in good compan

[dmveventer]

From the USEF amateur rules:

"v. EXCEPTION: Any amateur 25 and under, who has engaged in professional activities (as
defined herein) may reapply for their amateur status utilizing a 3-month waiting period. "

If this person has been with the same trainer since her junior years my guess is she tried out the pro life, realized it wasn’t for her, and reclaimed her ammy status. I’ve known several people that have done similar.

This is exactly why USEF gave you the line they did about not drawing attention to things that get people spun up regardless of the legality. Let people who are actually competing against this person bring it up if they feel the need to, at least they’d have a stake in the answer.

[Fun_Size]

She is not under 25, I’d guess late 30s early 40s.

But, yes, I’ll leave it to the competitors at that show to raise if they want to. It is all just so odd.

[trubandloki]

It is interesting to me that most people are of the mind set that one should not question these things, let the person ride in the ammy division.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

From the evidence you’ve presented, it sounds pretty fishy, especially if this is an older person (I could see if the person was very young and had maybe been a trainer while a junior and listed on the website and had just aged out). Is the trainer the spouse or child of the barn owner or other trainers? It could be they “Trainer 3” is not accepting money for services, but the riders are still paying the other trainer technically on paper, or some other finagling (which obviously wouldn’t be ethical).

I don’t think whether ammies aren’t equally as good as pros is relevant, although I see that’s what some people are fixating on. Obviously, there are many well-heeled genuine ammies on very fancy horses who are in much better positions to ride frequently than a pro trainer managing an up-and-down lesson barn (to use two extreme examples for contrast). It just sounds like this person may be breaking the rules and not doing a very good job covering up. In fact, the lack of coverup is the only thing that makes me wonder if there is an innocent explanation, since it would be easier just to not put her on the website and take cash under the table if they wanted to violate the rules.

[Fun_Size]

I do agree with you on skill level. In fact it slices the other way sometimes - an ammy with a nice string of horses and time to clinic and ride your rear off has a really good chance of putting in a better ride than a pro that has to ride everyone’s horses and may not have time to focus on one, or three.

But the rest just smells off to me. Especially being the odd barn that does actually seem to update their website.

[skip99]

USEF’s reinstatement process is not hard to complete. A couple of notarized letters from people who know you if I recall correctly. I don’t believe they do any additional due diligence for reinstatement unless things have changed very recently.

[Annie10]

I would prob just send off an email and let USEF check it out.it may just end with “.hey update your website”’

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

This is somewhat the tale as old as time.

It’s become more of a thing lately though, where a spouse or adult child of a trainer, or bestie kid that they’re grooming to be a young pro or don’t want to lose as their unofficial pro rider bc they aged out and they did all the pro riding as a junior, is riding in the AA’s.

I believe it happens a lot at sale barns bc although the rider is as slick as some of the top pros, the horse can still be marketed as jr/am friendly, which can certainly drive a ton more money than a green horse where it’s uncertain if they’re ever going to take a joke or leave from anywhere.

[Fun_Size]

That hadn’t even occurred to me. My brain just went down a rabbit hole of all the horses I’ve looked at, marketed as a/a friendly, and then simply WERE NOT. Me, thinking it is because I’m a terrible rider, looking at the horse’s show records with all of these “A/As” on them.

I mean I’m still just a solid intermediate rider, nothing great, but that’s some food for thought.