Advice/Opinions/Defeated Vent on Ringbone horse

I’m at a crossroads with this and I just don’t know what to do. Here’s the background. Sorry for the novel. I appreciate any and all responses.

So about two years ago I was given a mare because she was a problem child. Beautiful and talented jumping mare but a reputation so terrible no one would buy her. The previous owner really did everything completely screwy with her and I know she’d be a totally different horse had she not been the one to breed, raise, and train her. When I got her she was led around with a lip chain because she had no manners. She’s plow into you with her shoulder and I had to do many many sessions with the chain over the nose and a dressage whip to undo that. She can no be led with bailing twine. She also used to hang on my hands so hard they’d be raw and plow around on the front end. She mostly sat with me for the first year aside from ground manner lessons and occasional rides while I worked through the nursing program. Over the past 8 months or so I’ve started focusing on bringing her up to speed and her riding has improved tremendously. She LOVES jumping and is so dead honest about it. She is quite athletic and pulls off saves that impress my trainer with her cattiness. BUT she’s a “red mare”. She can try her heart out for things she loves (Like jumps) and then also just pick something she’s done a million times and just be a total mule about it and you have to battle her through it. A lot of times she’ll pick the same thing for a while and you do the same battle (like the sudden not wanting to load in the trailer) for months and then it just stops and is good. She tends to spook or tune out as a method of trying to avoid work,which I’m sure worked in the past with the old owner, but not me. And it’s one of those things that’s just ingrained in her and she always has to give it a try. And sometimes she just decides something she’s done quite a bit before (like stepping on white concrete) is just over the top and will flat out refuse to approach and it’s a chore to get that over. She has certain quicks where she can be dangerous. Like when I had to worm her she was rearing up over my head. And we’ve worked on that with each worming and she doesn’t do the rearing up anymore but still isn’t something I’d have someone else deal with. She also decides sometimes that she just won’t be caught. It’s a game. I’ve tried all the tricks in the book but none of them work on her. She’s too smart and stubborn. I keep her in a halter with a lead dragging during times where I’m short on time (nurse with two jobs) so that I can catch her. It doesn’t bother her and we have electric fences and nothing to get caught on. If you don’t ride her for a while the game ends and she begs for attention and looks disappointed when you don’t bring her in to saddle up. She requires a lot to “put together” under saddle since her tendency is to motor along on the front. She reaches under her belly and overtracks but is still on the forehand unless you constantly work at it. Overall I’m just painting a picture of talented girl, but a difficult horse to deal with and sometimes I even get tired of the constant “games”.

About two months ago I took her in to the vet because after a month of coming back into work she was just off at the trot and went from being a horse who never gave me a wrong lead to not getting her left lead no matter what was tried. She used to always get her leads on the lunge without thought and now a lot of times she’s counter canter to avoid the left lead. Vet found out she has high and low ringbone stage 1 and 2 in both hinds. Vet also thought she had possible neuro issues because he didn’t think she really knew where here hind feet were because she walks a bit weird. To me she just has that swinging walk I’ve seen in quite a few Arabs (she’s half arab and half RID). And she’d about buckle at the knees when you pressed on the top of her hips. Vet is very experience lameness vet. He told me not to put any more money into her because it was 50/50 on which direction we’d go with her being an eventing/riding horse for me. I don’t think she has neuro issues and she seems to figure out her feet well over poles and jumps. I’ve had the chiropractor out regularly and she readjusts her hips every time and said it’s just going to be a maintenance thing probably due to her compensating for the ringbone in the hinds. Vet seemed to think the ringbone was the least of our worries and that it shouldn’t be an issue until she starts scoring a 6/7 on the scale. She’s been on a half tab of previcox since. She still felt slightly off at the trot with that and there was a period of time where she was more willing to give the left lead but still having issues. After day one of the event (granted she was a total fruit loop and constantly calling and riling my other horse up despite them being trailered and one tied while the other is ridden quite often), but she seemed a bit more sore after the event. The vet had told me to use her and just get her strong and see what we got. We had been schooling novice level and competed in intro due to the fuss.

After the event I couldn’t find my bottle of previcox and she was just turned out (they live in paddocks) for a week. When I rode her after a week off and no previcox she was so anxious about canter departs and just wouldn’t give the left lead and when we’d really get her set up that she almost had to give it she just was strung out and funky behind and then looked slightly off at the walk following that. So I’m just feeling crushed. I’m pretty positive the ringbone came from the trauma of her kicking the crap out of the pipe panels at her old owners place kicking at horses. I was told she always was swollen from the concussion of that. Over the past couple months I really worked on getting her conditioned and stronger and did lots of trail riding and mountain work. But with her being off at the trot and so stressed and unwilling to give the left lead canter (the right hind is worse so this makes sense), I just feel like I’m spinning my wheels and spending a lot of time and money to get no where. If she’s off at this level of work for intro, B/N, then what am I doing? And she’s not head bobbing lame but there’s just the offness you can feel and slightly see. We also can’t be doing eventing with only the right lead. I don’t have a need for a horse for anything else. I have my gelding to event and my RID broodmare for ISH eventers. Eventing is what I’m interested in. I just don’t know what to do with her. It’s obviously already bothering her even with previcox. And I think it’s a lot to do that and injections or whatever else do just bebop around the lowest levels. I wouldn’t sell her with how she is. Even if someone was willing to take her on with full disclosure, I don’t think she’d last long before ending up at auction. And a horse that you give away with some maintenance requirements are the ones that are older steady eddies and she’s definitely not that. Her current training, her personality, and condition all make it so I don’t feel I have many options.

I feel like my ethical options are:

  1. Hang onto her for the rest of her life as a pasture ornament (she’s only 10)

  2. Try to find that one in a million nice pasture pet home for her

  3. Put her down

  4. I just really don’t want to do that seeing as (this might sound callous) while I love her and we’ve had some super fun times jumping, she’s difficult and hasn’t done much to earn a full ride through life like my other event horse

  5. I think this option would make me feel good knowing she just gets to be a horse and do nothing. But then I also run the risk of her passing along hands into the unknown or when the time comes that the ringbone gets bad that she’s not walking sound, the person not putting her down.

  6. This makes me feel sick to my stomach. She’s so young and I just feel so crushed about a wasted life, but I’d know she wouldn’t ever have an uncertain future or suffer.

I feel like if we still have offness on half tab of previcox this early in the ringbone that continuing to try to compete her is not fair. I also feel that it’s just not worth the large hassle to keep turning her around when we really won’t get far due to the ringbone limitations. I just don’t know what to do. I’ve talked to my trainer about it too and with how much money and time I spend on this, it’s supposed to be fun. And with her there’s some really fun times but she’s a lot of work to ride all the time and it’s frustrating. Maybe I’m making a mountain out of a molehill. But I just feel like with the needing so much to hold together and off the forehand, the left lead stress and reluctance (she’ll pop up with that shoulder like she’s about to go into the left lead and then launch over into the right like she’s trying to avoid the push with that hind), and the off feeling at the trot of a lot of times that she’s showing me that she’s just not comfortable for this kind of work. I think she keeps doing it for me and because she likes the jumping parts. I think she’d enjoy being a horse and doing trail rides but I wouldn’t giver her away as a trail horse. And I just don’t have time for a just trail horse with eventing and two jobs. And I feel guilty. We had so many people who knew her before I got her that were amazed with her improvement and I just feel like I’ve failed her. And I feel guilty that I’m feeling like I’m ready to throw in the towel with the constant battles for simple things. I feel guilty I didn’t make her into that solid packer eventer I had planned on. And then I feel guilty if I don’t hang onto her as a pasture ornament forever. If I had my farm already I wouldn’t hesitate to do so. But I won’t have a farm of my own for probably five years or more.

If I were you, I would put her down. She’s not a horse for beginners and even if you found a home with an experienced person, there’s no way to guarantee she would stay there.

Try not to feel guilty. Horses don’t have any concept of potential or plans. They just live day to day. Your mare has no idea of what you were hoping for her and she won’t be disappointed if she can’t live up to that dream. It is sad that she is so young and didn’t have the best life before she came to you but you gave her a couple good years of good care. That is something to be proud of.

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Sorry you’re going through this, it sucks. I also vote for options 1 or 3.

(2 is everyone’s dream, but as you said, unlikely to guarantee a good outcome. Just to feel like I did everything I could, I might try option 2, with people I know very well (like, ask around if anyone is looking for a pasture puff/companion animal), or some combination of 1 & 2 (cheaper pasture board with a friend, with a firm DNR on the horse), but I would not count on it being a viable option (if I don’t want to pay for unrideable horse, why would anyone else).)

That said, you don’t have put her down right away, if you can afford to give yourself some time to prepare to say goodbye, if you think that would make it easier. Not that I’m encouraging you to put more money or training into the horse – I agree she is not sound for eventing, maybe also not trail riding if she’s off at the trot.

Another thing to think about: her difficult/spooky/anxious personality may in part be due to pain/neuro issues, they can behave like this without showing obvious lameness.

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This. She’s not a beginner friendly horse for someone who is just looking for a pet. I’d be wary of any experienced horse person taking her too; perhaps that stems from of the shady dealings Ive seen happen in cases like this. Ill give you an example: a lady who owned a very nice dressage WB gelding gave said horse away after he had a career ending high hind suspensory injury that kept cropping back up even after extensive rehab and attempts to bring him back into full work. The person who was going to give him a ‘pasture puff life’ turned around and sold the horse on to unsuspecting junior rider about a year later; it only came to light when the new owner contacted the previous listed owner on his papers because the horse was NQR as work intensity increased and was trying to establish a history on the horse. The moral of the story: the only guaranteed retirement/pasture home for a horse is with yourself.
I think the best things for this mare would be either in your care as a pasture pet or to put her down.
I’m truly sorry to hear that you are in this situation.

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What you describe does sound neurological to me: neurological can affect in odd ways. Both a client and I have (had) a horse with a broken neck. Both horses seemed ok, and both jumped, but both would have very over the top reactions at random to things like you describe.

Did you block the horse to ensure it was the ring bone causing the offness? It is possible it is not what is causing the pain, and instead you may be feeling unevenness due to neurological uncertainty?

The coach in me says to put her down to save your money, but you might have trouble finding a vet to put her down as she sounds pasture sound, so it would depend on your relationship with your vet.

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I really feel for you OP - I was in a sightly similar position to you once and it’s not easy. As I was reading your post, the thing that kept running through my head was “Ringbone? In the hinds?” You do mention a history of kicking at the fence as a mechanism of injury, but I don’t think I’ve never known a horse diagnosed with ringbone behind. Did the vet confirm the location of the pain by blocking? If not, I would at a minimum get some blocks done to confirm this is the source of the pain.

If it were me, #1 wouldn’t be an option financially, and #2 would really worry me. I wouldn’t rule out euthanasia in a situation like this once I’m confident that the physical problem can’t be reasonably resolved. But based on the information in the post, I’m uneasy with attributing the lameness to what the vet called mild ringbone behind…re-reading your post, the vet said it was the least of your worries…so is the vet attributing the lameness to ringbone? I DON’T think you should spend a ton of money chasing a mysterious hind-end lameness, but I just want to make sure that the vet is covering their bases and you don’t get the right lead and a happier horse back with a second opinion and something do-able like hock injections…(or conversely confirmation of something neuro going on, in which case (for me at least), I would have clarity that euthanasia is the right choice)

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I’m sorry for what you’re dealing with… before you throw in the towel either way, check these out. A friend at my barn uses them, as well as another (her horse had a broken coffin bone amongst other issues!). Both horses made remarkable improvements. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Tm3kBtKQAQ&t=91s

Sucks to hear she’s off behind again. She’s a hard one because she’s not going to be simple enough for most people to trail ride any time soon, and she really does have moments of brilliance. But throwing a pile of money at her really isn’t an option. I’d vote to keep her on the cheap for 6 more months and see what a little more clean living and good exercise can do for her. Pull her shoes so her feet can work the way they’re supposed to. You could try hoof boots for the concussion but I’d get a good trim first and see how she moves. Lay off of the jumping for a bit and focus on getting her working correctly on the flat. She’ll make a good practice horse for right now, and if she can’t stand up to it then donate her to the university.

I’d maybe try to figure out what’s wrong with her first. All those naughty behaviors you describe are probably related to her being in pain and unaware of where she is in space. If you don’t trust your vet (vet thinks she’s neuro, but you don’t??) find a new one that you do trust.

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Thank you for the replies. I really appreciate them.

I talked to my vet more about it today. He said since the previcox wasn’t having the desired effect he really thinks it’s neurological of some kind. I can definitely see that now. He said something could have happened in her past and she could have damaged hips. She could have EPM or had a virus at some point that’s caused permanent neurological injuries. And that we can explore things and try to find a definitive diagnosis but it’s going to get costly very quick. He said I should cut my losses with all the things going on with her from personality, training, to maintenance work, to unknown neuro issues. I don’t want to keep working an off horse. I also don’t want to keep doing the battles for improvement when the diagnosis is poor.

Several people have told me in person since she’s athletic and good looking and an ISH to breed her and I just can’t do that. She flexed mildly positive in like every flexion the vet did, including the fronts. The hinds were just the worst and what we decided to radiograph. And I don’t want to possibly bring a foal with a potential hereditary arthritis into the mix and deal with this heartache all over again.

Please go with your gut feeling on this. People who are suggesting breeding this mare aren’t considering all the mitigating factors especially the potential for inherited problems. Another consideration must be her physical ability to carry a foal comfortably with her soundness and/or neurological problems. Obviously this is JMO and I truly feel for you and your mare.
please remember ultimately that whatever decision you make with your mare is the RIGHT decision. You know her best.

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I’d test do a blood test for EPM and Lyme - since both of those can be treated/cured with drugs in many cases and she could potentially return to her career. If those come back negative, I could see drawing a line in the sand and saying any other potential neurological cause is likely incurable, therefore, it’s not worth doing any more diagnostics.

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I would choose option number 3.

We all don’t have endless financial pockets or endless time. It seems insensitive to think of horses as livestock … but they are. Most of us have horses in our lives because they bring us enjoyment. So if something happens where they no longer bring that enjoyment (or we don’t have the time or money to get to that point), I don’t think there is any shame at all in make sure the horse never ends up in the wrong hands.

Of course, you could do option number 1 … but that’s expensive too.

If this horse was 25 years old, I think most of us would choose number 3 easily. But emotion comes into when we think of “how young” they are that it makes us not want to pick option 3.

Either way OP, I’m sorry you are in a tight spot. And it is a tough decision to make either way.

The only thing I personally would not choose is option 2. There is just no guarantee what will happen to them when they leave your hands. I always worry that someone will work them too hard and ignore that they are in pain.

I too would not breed her, unless you specifically plan on keeping the foal for yourself. THen you could consider it. But, she may just pass down that stubborn temperment to her foal…

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I wouldn’t judge anyone for option #3 in these circumstances, but if it were my horse I’d want to spend a little bit more on diagnostics first (with a different vet, preferably a lameness expert). I would consider another neuro exam, testing for Lyme and EPM, and maybe some neck or back x-rays. I think you could do that for under $1,500, which should be less than starting over with a new horse. I totally understand not wanting to sink too much money into a horse with poor prospects, but it sounds like you enjoy riding her and if it were me I’d want to know as much as I could about what I was dealing with before making big decisions.

(FWIW, a few months ago vets told me that my 5-year-old will probably never hold up to heavy work due to his hind end conformation. I did not want to give up on a nice horse based on probability, especially since his current lameness is on the left front. I finally just sucked it up and did an MRI on the left front because I didn’t feel comfortable making decisions without a diagnosis, and it turns out he has a collateral ligament injury, so he’s on stall rest/rehab now. Maybe the hind end will be an issue, maybe not.)

This vet office is considered the go to lamenes expert in the area. Many of my friends performance horses have been handled by him. It’s not that I’ve ever not trusted him, I just really didn’t understand neuro issues are much more than being able to place feet around poles and jumps. And at the time he said it’s a small chance it was just weakness in the hind end. And I spent months on mountains and transitions and lots of trotting and she looks great and is in great shape now and it hasn’t changed his opinion.

My grandma has an EPM horse. Both her and the vet agree testing her isn’t even worth it because at this point it would have happened years ago and you can’t reverse the neurological damage from either Lyme or EPM. You have what you have. Catching it early is key to treating and keeping minimal damage.

I disagree here. While there can definitely be long-term neurological damage done by both of these diseases, I’ve seen horses go from neurological to normal after treatment - even in cases where it wasn’t caught as quickly as you would want. In other cases I’ve seen the impairments improve by grades even if they didn’t go away completely. I also wouldn’t want a horse sitting out in a field continuing to get worse with a disease whose progression could be stopped with correct treatment. When they stop getting worse, they often learn to cope better with the deficits they have, and can be quite a bit happier and safer.

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#2 type homes are not reliably available, and I certainly wouldn’t place one with these behavioral issues there. Although you have made progress, how easy would it be for her to revert behaviors with someone a little less skilled (much less a lot less skilled)? If she is still “testing” you from time to time. I think your reasonable options are #1 (perhaps with another recheck or more diagnostics at some point in the future) or #3. I also agree don’t breed her, at least not without a thorough diagnosis. But the positive flexions all around would be good enough for me not to breed! Plus, if she’s got major pelvis pain, how fair is it to ask her to carry a foal?

I’m so sorry that you are struggling with this. Lots of good comments above, but I wanted to add mine about #2 - That “one in a million pasture home”. I’m actually one of those. And I am very experienced and knowledgeable.

As the need arises, I do bring in companions to stay with the horses that are left at home when I’m out and about with the others. And those guys live their lives out here on my farm with the best of care and attention. But I am also EXTREMELY picky about the ones I bring in. I will not tolerate crappy ground manners, rude behavior and general pissy attitude. Because I can be. There are so many out there that I can chose from. :frowning:

That’s my point about #2. Please be honest with yourself about your mare’s ability to be a welcome pasture pet at a farm like mine. Not sure what you described would be.

I wish you the best as you work through your options.

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I would like to offer Option #4. My horse was diagnosed with upper and lower ringbone in his front legs several years ago. Put him on Previcoxx and it helped, but didn’t make him sound. I researched and found that Pentosan helps horses with osteoarthritis (ringbone). I’ve had him on it for over 5 years now and he is sound. I can’t ride him on hard surfaces, and I suspect you couldn’t jump her, but it is an additional option to think about.

one thing to keep in mind about ring bone and any osteo-arthritic issue is—it depends a lot where it is and how far along it is. The name of the game with any bone inflammatory process is --reduce inflation and rest. Previcox is not the only drug out there. I had a babysitter horse that was retired and riddled with high and low ringbone, side bone—every surface from coffin to fetlock was full of bony changes that looked like cauliflower on xrays. She had a spell of being extremely lame at age 25, previcox do absolutely zero for her—but meclofenamate had her totally comfortable and happy babysitting on a very small dose.–that’s an extreme case, but the difference in her comfort was dramatic by switching the medication. Previcox is a Cox 2 inhibitor which operates on a specific couple of inflammatory factors–meclo is in more of a asperine like family of drugs that reduce inflammation. It can vary what’s going to work animal to animal.

a lot of boney/changes arthritic issues will sort out with rest–but like 6mo-1yr rest to let the bone calm down and harden off stop proliferating/remodeling. the sacro and the lower hock are 2 places a middle aged horse often can go off/experience remodeling even fusion over a rear–but once complete and “cold” not be troubled by any further.

also— I’d ask for estimate to run a CBC, Lyme, EPM, and Vitamin E. You will likely get it done for less by traveling to a clinic or vet school. I’ve found it to be usually 1/2 the cost of having a vet call out, draw it, send it out—it’s worth it even factoring fuel and time for me to haul out. At a clinic/vet school they also usually get your CBC and E done within an hour.

CBC gives a picture of how body is—whether it looks like it’s fighting infection, even if you may have ulcers.

Vit E—so easy to get low and it will cause some really wonky symptoms that are hard to pin down–vague lameness, stiffness, musccle soreness and muscle spasm mild to severe can be found by just being a tad off. Fortified feed is not enough for most active horses. Natural E d-tocopherol is superior to DL-tocopherol synthetic. Buy people capsules or horse stuff that says “D” not “DL”. 2ooo IU a day is standard

Lyme- lots of weird a$$ stuff happens. I have a horse diagnosed neg a month ago by test—but he just wasn’t right and I knew it, tested 30days later…bingo he is pos and being treated.

EPM serious weirdness, it would be helpful to know if she was way high in exposure to rule it out. Treatment is costly—but not more costly then tossing your time/training invested and finding/buying a new horse.

I didn’t read every post but, I’d chase it just a bit further. She likely needs time off and some medications probably a conditioning plan of gentle physio. IME getting to the bottom of these is better done at a specialty clinic or vet school—IME it’s actually cheaper.