This weekend a junior rider competed in the 2* Grand Prix on Saturday night at WEF (and got a ribbon and some prize money). The next day she was in the 15-17 equitation (along with kids from my barn; very capable of the 3’3" but for them, Grand Prix is a pipe dream). Nothing personal against this rider; don’t know her. But does anyone else feel that there ought to be some USEF Rule with limits about the size of the fish in that pond? If a rider is that capable and elects to compete against McLain, Kent and Beezie, should she be permitted to cross-enter into the age group equitation classes?
The classes are judged on different criteria, so no, I don’t believe the entries should be restricted. But I can understand why students from your barn might be frustrated.
GP isn’t Eq. No reason to exclude. Now if you were talking Children’s Hunter? Might be different.
The kids need to learn not to be frustrated when faced with top competition in age group Eq or a national Medal class when showing at AA shows. That GP rider is still entitled to show and earn points in her age group Eq. There are restricted classes available if they don’t want to compete against the top kids or they can show at smaller shows. Trainer should be stressing it as an opportunity to see where they can improve.
" If a rider is that capable and elects to compete against McLain, Kent and Beezie, should she be permitted to cross-enter into the age group equitation classes?"
yes. can’t really prohibit skill.
It does not follow at all that the young GP riders have the best eq. Some do. Some don’t. Lots of young jumper riders have lots of holes in their eq. Basically, the whole HJ sport is unfair and not a level playing field. You will see not just GP riders dropping down, but most big eq horses are former GP horses who happen to have the flat jump that makes the big eq the prettiest jump for a rider to sit. If you watch enough shows you will see working students riding in everything from the ponies to the big eq to the jumper ring and everywhere in between.
It’s something you have to consider if you can handle or not. If you want the fairest division possible, then just get out of the big eq. Go to the hunter or jumper ring and get some prize money as consolation. If you want to stay in the eq, then make peace with the unfairness and corruption of it. Otherwise you will be tortured the whole time you are there.
It does not follow at all that the young GP riders have the best eq. Some do. Some don’t. Lots of young jumper riders have lots of holes in their eq. Basically, the whole HJ sport is unfair and not a level playing field. You will see not just GP riders dropping down, but most big eq horses are former GP horses who happen to have the flat jump that makes the big eq the prettiest jump for a rider to sit. If you watch enough shows you will see working students riding in everything from the ponies to the big eq to the jumper ring and everywhere in between.
It’s something you have to consider if you can handle or not. If you want the fairest division possible, then just get out of the big eq. Go to the hunter or jumper ring and get some prize money as consolation. If you want to stay in the eq, then make peace with the unfairness and corruption of it. Otherwise you will be tortured the whole time you are there.
Yes. Different divisions. The open eq is the top of the division, barring the big eq medals. Though I supposed that if a GP rider were eligible for the maiden eq they’d be able to do it based on the rules.
Often the kids out here who are doing all the medals won’t do the age group eq because there are so many medals. But if a kid gets a sale horse to ride or is trying to bring along a younger horse, I could definitely see one of the big name eq riders doing the age-group eq.
I hate to see anybody taking candy from babies, but that is just me. In real life, as in this case, with Eq and GP being different sports almost, it is just the way it is.
As a person/athlete goes up the ladder it is all about performance and is a hard lesson to learn for the up and comers…life is real and life is ernest as they say.
But the kids with the pipe dreams can always say they competed against so-and-so and did well… I remember my daughter’s claim to fame was beating Theresa Washtock at an event as Theresa was an Olymipan - all the while knowing full well she was not a patch on Theresa.
Tell them they did well and keep encouraging.
I’m pretty sure I know what rider is being referred to and if that’s the case, said rider didn’t place in 2 out of 3 age group eq classes at WEF2. I’m not sure it’s taking candy from babies at that point.
It sounds like this was at WEF. I think it’s pretty common knowledge that the competition at WEF (in general & particularly the Eq Classes) is some of the best in the country. It seems odd to go to WEF and complain about the competition level. There are shows all over that have much easier competition level (you could start at shows with lower level Grand Prixs). You could go up the road to Ocala and likely have a slightly lower level of competition in Eq classes.
I know this is not exactly the same, but when I used to show a lot in the “B” circuit up north, I used to show in the jumper classes with several “A” circuit trainers. I was always thrilled when I beat them! (Yes, they were on green horses, or new horses, but heck, I beat them, so I was happy). 
So I can see these juniors in both rings, no problem.
My experience is similar to Paradox.
A lot of A horses & riders used the B shows as a warmup since A shows frequently took place at the same venue the following weekend.
& I experienced the same minor-league thrill when my 2nd Year Green Hunter with me aboard came in 2nd to a class full of the local BNTs.
Back then the class was considered an all-Pro division.
In fact some of those LBNTs asked my trainer why he wasn’t riding the horse in the class.
To this day I love him for his answer:
“Because it’s her horse.”
OP:
Agree with those saying shift the focus to how well your riders did in a class with a more experienced rider.
If there are cross entry restrictions it would be listed in your Zone specs.
If the junior rider doing GP didn’t place then I guess it’s not a big deal. However, I could see a case being made for some restriction, perhaps people showing at GP could do open EQ or BigEq classes, but not the age group eq.
When I was a junior back in the dark ages, I rode in the age break eq against Meredith Michaels Beerbaum and Candice Schlom King. They were both big names and both riding grands prixs at that time. They were also stylish, consistent Eq riders. It was my honor and privilege to ride in classes with them.
Open equitation is open. At WEF you’re competing against the best of the best at the national level, and that’s why you went there. Instead of complaining, have the kids ride without stirrups and get on more horses. Or work on pilates or fitness or watch more clinics or any number of things you can do with your spare minutes that will make you a better rider.
When I switched to dressage and eventing, at my very first event I rode against Jil Walton, freshly returned from Barcelona, on her latest green bean TB, and in my first year of dressage I rode in a class against Hilda Gurney.
I promise you, I only rode better for having these amazingly talented people in my classes.
Age Group Eq IS the open eq division. And IIRC runs at 3’6" just like the medals do. (The Adult age groups run at 3’.) It’s not like Limit/Maiden/whatever where you’re limited by ribbons won; it’s open to anyone in that age group.
I’d assume if a junior was showing in the GP and also doing their appropriate age group section (rather than something like the Medal/Maclay) that they were going in the eq to school something or put eq miles on it.
[QUOTE=lovemyboy;9019875]
" If a rider is that capable and elects to compete against McLain, Kent and Beezie, should she be permitted to cross-enter into the age group equitation classes?"
yes. can’t really prohibit skill.[/QUOTE]
Well, no, you can’t prohibit skill. But I think it’s bad sportsmanship to compete against folks several rungs below you in riding ability. No, a GP isn’t an equitation contest. But I will be willing to bet that if you can ride your way around a Big Sticks course, you can equitate easily at 3’3".
Can any of your defend this kid’s or the adults’ in her life decision to compete this way? Am I the only one that thinks sporting contests ought to be at least somewhat fair in order to be enjoyable at all?
Trust me, if Victoria Colvin had shown in the age-group equitation in her last year as a junior, there would have been a hue and cry on these pages.
Big equitation (Medal) riders are expected to gracefully recuse themselves from the pony ring at some point. I would think that a corresponding expectation that any Saturday night Grand Prix rider would gracefully recuse herself from age group equitation (which is run at 3’3") and stick to the Medals, would not be unreasonable. Just an opinion. And I also fail to see why my low adult hunter rider cannot also compete earlier in the week in the 85 cm training jumpers, on the same horse, should she desire to give that a try. For whatever reason, the low adult hunters are locked into a height restriction, and prohibited from competing higher than 2’9" on the same horse at the same show. Is there any rationale for that ?
Can any of your defend this kid’s or the adults’ in her life decision to compete this way? Am I the only one that thinks sporting contests ought to be at least somewhat fair in order to be enjoyable at all?
The open equitation is open. Every person has to jump the same course. Every person must be between the ages of 15 and 17, inclusive.
What, exactly, is not fair about this?
It may shock you to learn, for example, that some of these kids will be mounted on horses that cost more than my house and others may be on horses that cost a couple thousand dollars. Some of these kids may be on a catch ride and others on a longtime partner. Many of these kids have more than one horse and lots of riding time. Some of these kids have already placed in the top 10 at a national medal final. Some of these kids come from families with more money than god and some of these kids are scrimping and saving and braiding and working and only there for the one week. Some of these kids are at WEF for the first time and some have been coming for the whole circuit since they were toddlers.
It’s hard, it’s competitive, and it’s WEF. A ribbon in this company is well earned.
If this isn’t the sandbox you want to play in, there are many other sandboxes that might fit better. Some people want to be able to win if they set down the best trip they can do and some people want to find out how they compare to the best there are. Both goals are worthy, but maybe can’t be achieved at WEF.
[QUOTE=poltroon;9020257]
The open equitation is open. Every person has to jump the same course. Every person must be between the ages of 15 and 17, inclusive.
What, exactly, is not fair about this?
It may shock you to learn, for example, that some of these kids will be mounted on horses that cost more than my house and others may be on horses that cost a couple thousand dollars. Some of these kids may be on a catch ride and others on a longtime partner. Many of these kids have more than one horse and lots of riding time. Some of these kids have already placed in the top 10 at a national medal final. Some of these kids come from families with more money than god and some of these kids are scrimping and saving and braiding and working and only there for the one week. Some of these kids are at WEF for the first time and some have been coming for the whole circuit since they were toddlers.
It’s hard, it’s competitive, and it’s WEF. A ribbon in this company is well earned.
If this isn’t the sandbox you want to play in, there are many other sandboxes that might fit better. Some people want to be able to win if they set down the best trip they can do and some people want to find out how they compare to the best there are. Both goals are worthy, but maybe can’t be achieved at WEF.[/QUOTE]
Well… I don’t think I quite deserve the sarcasm and condescention, but that’s not on my side of the street.
I don’t care if one can find ways to win by out-spending the competition or choose the “strict interpretation” of the classes’ age limits, or the argument from precedent (It has always been allowed or the more global (and unverifiable claim usually issued by those with the most privilege: “Life is unfair”). None of those speaks to the issue of sportsmanship in any way.
