Age-group equitation & Grand Prix riders?

[jhg140]

This is in reference to Brett Burlington on the horse Scirocco.

Having not been in FL, it took me less than 5 minutes to find out that the horse also did the Large Juniors (no ribbons), placed in 1 out of 3 15-17 age group eq classes last week, has done exactly three shows ever (WEF 1 and 2, and the New Years pre-circuit show), and is only 7 and owned by a trainer.

Methinks its a new import getting some miles with an experienced junior so it can be marketed as an eq horse. That said, just as others opined above me, its an open division that anyone can enter. Not sure what the fuss is about, she wasn’t champion and didn’t win every class. How else is an eq horse supposed to get in the ring with a junior rider if not in the eq divisions?

[jhg140]

Oh, come on people, this information is readily available - the rider being referenced is Brett Burlington, on a horse named Scirocco.

Not being at WEF, it took me less than 5 minutes to find out that the horse is 7 years old and owned by Brett’s trainer, and has done three shows ever - not just 2017, but ever (WEF 1 & 2, and the pre-circuit New Years show). Methinks this is a new import being prepped for sale as an eq horse. Not sure what eq divisions a young horse is supposed to do to get experience under its belt, if not the eq? Also, for those who will say “it should do the schooling jumpers”, I’m guessing prospective buyers may want it to have actual equitation mileage.

As someone else mentioned, the pair only ribboned in one class of three. Which further reinforces my educated guesstimate that this is a new import sale horse. End of the day, as others have said, this is an open division and its a non-issue.

[Cannonball]

It’s a “Horse” show, there is the possibility that the rider was using these classes to train/prepare a horse at the 3’3" height, or introducing the horse to eq courses, or trying to find out why the horse stops for its regular rider or numerous other possibilities.

Jumping to the assumption that this was done out of poor sportsmanship without knowledge of the situation is ridiculous. Of course, this is exactly how most in our country react to everything, no understanding, no acceptance, no benefit of doubt, always looking at others faults instead of our own, etc. etc.

[poltroon]

Well… I don’t think I quite deserve the sarcasm and condescention, but that’s not on my side of the street.

I don’t care if one can find ways to win by out-spending the competition or choose the “strict interpretation” of the classes’ age limits, or the argument from precedent (It has always been allowed or the more global (and unverifiable claim usually issued by those with the most privilege: “Life is unfair”). None of those speaks to the issue of sportsmanship in any way.

Well, I am the little fish here. I assure you, I am not arguing this point from privilege. :lol:

That some people need different sandboxes is totally reasonable; if so, then lobby for a restricted eq division (or medal) that is only open to riders who are not competing above 3’6".

I see no reason to take away the option for an open eq class from any junior rider, or to discourage riders from taking a try at bigger jumps, not even someone as accomplished as Victoria Colvin.

[SnicklefritzG]

That is one thing I like about dressage. You can compete against yourself and apply for several types of awards, USDF medals, local GMO medals, performance awards at each level, etc. It doesn’t matter who was in your class, whether it be other amateurs on former GP horses, or even pros. All that matters is how you rode. In general you don’t need a fancy horse for most of that. So even if you don’t get a ribbon because you had to ride against those types of people you can come out of it with some kind of achievement that is actually worth something on paper.

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=mvp;9020238]
Well, no, you can’t prohibit skill. But I think it’s bad sportsmanship to compete against folks several rungs below you in riding ability. No, a GP isn’t an equitation contest. But I will be willing to bet that if you can ride your way around a Big Sticks course, you can equitate easily at 3’3".

Can any of your defend this kid’s or the adults’ in her life decision to compete this way? Am I the only one that thinks sporting contests ought to be at least somewhat fair in order to be enjoyable at all?[/QUOTE]

Absolutely I can defend her! Presumably the rider wasn’t on the same horse she rode in the GP. So why wouldn’t it be fair? Because the fences don’t look as “big” to the GP rider as the Eq-only rider? Eq is a different sport with a different set of requirements than a GP and there’s no way to restrict riders by talent, which turns into a frighteningly slippery slope. And if the post above is correct about the horse being a new import or new horse, then she’s sitting on a horse she doesn’t know well. If we’re trying to make totally level playing ground, then who has the advantage - the kid on the horse she doesn’t know well or the kid who’s been showing her own horse for several years? And that level playing field, btw…it doesn’t exist at any level in this sport. Unless you’re advocating a sport where every level is chopped up into so many pieces that everybody gets to take home a ribbon. And what’s the fun in that?

Also, the fact that the kid rode around a GP means nothing. I’ve seen riders who can barely prop themselves up place in a big GP because they’re sitting on an incredible schoolmaster-type GP horse. I’ve seen other riders who craft the entire ride from next to nothing and “create” the entire GP round. Two totally different skill sets and levels, but the results don’t take that into account. And even if the kid fit into the latter group, why wouldn’t she be eligible to ride in a class restricted only by age? Someone else said it better - if you want a smaller sand box go to a smaller show.

And, like Poltroon, I’m also the small fish. Definitely not arguing this from the side of privilege. Though if I do win the lottery some day I will continue the same argument from the other side

[Soaponarope]

For the OP, you will eventually develop a thicker skin - or not. But if you don’t it will be a painful experience for you. Basically the whole HJ world is full of child laborers and zillionaires. The former are working for trainers to sell horses and the latter have enough resources to buy the best trainers and horses. This pushes the middle class or even basic millionaires out of the competition (unless you are willing to turn your kid over to a trainer to use as child labor and be exposed to God knows what). That’s how it works and it sucks. At the end of the day if you want to enjoy the sport you have to get to the point where you focus on how your own team progresses and take joy in it. Our daughter knows that what she has done with her horse has given her and us more joy than any ribbon on a sale horse could ever provide.

[Pennywell_Bay]

There are some sour grapes on this board.

[Janet]

If you want to limit the prior experience of competitors in equitation classes, ask the organizers to re-introduce the Maiden, Novice, and Limit classes.

[222orchids]

OP here; let me be clear about this: no sour grapes. I knew the kid from my barn was not going to place before it started and, to be sure, she blew her lead changes. She’s learning and the curve is still steep. And this is NOT about the individual rider that was named, because this is a door that is open to lot of juniors.

it’s just a policy discussion, that is all. Shall we have Grand Prix riders in the Children’s Ponies, or not? Shall we draw a line somewhere in between that, or nowhere? My skin is plenty thick and I am not whining; I am just wondering whether the world at large might think there is a logical argument in favor of some policy that recognizes the vast disparity in talent, opportunity and resources that pervades the sport. It’s the only sport I can think of where children can compete against seasoned professionals and Olympians one day. Then then compete against other children the next day. It’s a bizarre world.

[Janet]

Well, no, you can’t prohibit skill. But I think it’s bad sportsmanship to compete against folks several rungs below you in riding ability. No, a GP isn’t an equitation contest. But I will be willing to bet that if you can ride your way around a Big Sticks course, you can equitate easily at 3’3".

Can any of your defend this kid’s or the adults’ in her life decision to compete this way? Am I the only one that thinks sporting contests ought to be at least somewhat fair in order to be enjoyable at all?

A I think it is BAD SPORTSMANSHIP to complain about another competitor who is clearly competing within the rules.

B I can think of any number of reasons (which have nothing to do with ribbons) why the kid, or the adults in her life, might decide that THIS class best meets the TRAINING needs of the horse or rider.

[Janet]

It’s the only sport I can think of where children can compete against seasoned professionals and Olympians one day. Then then compete against other children the next day. It’s a bizarre world.

In addition to MOST of the other equestrian sports (especially Eventing and Dressage) it also happens in Motorcycle Road Racing, and several other motor sports.

[poltroon]

It’s the only sport I can think of where children can compete against seasoned professionals and Olympians one day. Then then compete against other children the next day. It’s a bizarre world.

It’s possible in distance running too. I expect there are a lot of sports where it can occur in fact.

[Foxtrot_s]

frankly, I have always had a ‘reach higher’ philosophy. Staying down a level just to earn a ribbon gives no real satisfaction. There is no shame in showing well in a higher division if it is a good effort for the horse/rider combination.

There are always smaller, lower level shows to hone their skills if that is the route they chose.

Not winning all the time puts steel in the spine - and teaches sportsmanship and life skills for the future. So many of the top riders were not born with the silver spoon and with determination they have made it.

Showing is a pretty fake world, but is a measure of your progress, skills, talent and desire.

[Pennywell_Bay]

So- clearly the CHILD competing isn’t “dumbing down” for the division. AND it is within the rules. The kid didn’t win everything and even if she had, it is permitted. If they are already at WEF, why wouldn’t they enter a division for which they are eligible? Why should they have to go offsite and find a different show to do the eq?

There are very many reasons why the kid may have been competing in the eq, as stated by other posters. All really none of our business…

This coming from the parent of a pony kid. She’s going to get beat, by richer, better riders, nicer ponies and maybe some kids that we may deem to be too advanced for ponies. That is part of the reason they put age limits on the sizes of ponies. This is part of the very expensive game we play. I know it, I may not like it all the time but I have entered into it knowing this is how it goes.

Now- if they were trying to get by on some technicality or were not eligible for a division- that is a different story.

Kid rode in a GP for which she was eligible.
Kid rode in an eq class for which she was eligible.
No rules were broken.

What is the issue? We had this discussion in around Nationals about kids riding in GPs and competing in the eq. This is the way it is and I don’t see it as taking advantage.

Sportsmanship, people. Sportsmanship. What we seem to be lacking in a lot of aspects of the sport on both sides, and trainers, and owners (and people who have no skin in the game).

[222orchids]

A bunch of y’all are misreading this. No one said the rules were broken. Questioning whether the rule is correct for the sport.

[Darkwave]

“It’s possible in distance running too.”

Beat me to it

“A bunch of y’all are misreading this. No one said the rules were broken. Questioning whether the rule is correct for the sport.”

I think your question is really better reframed as “should we reintroduce the maiden/novice/limit equitation divisions.” There used to be both divisions - one divided strictly by age, the other by past experience.

I get your point about it being nice to have a division that acknowledges disparities in experience and skill. But we did have that at one point, and I think it would be better to reintroduce that division than to try to make the age-group eq division into something it’s not.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I’d say it is the opposite to the OP…it is NOT good for the sport or the kids in it to try and limit it.

What is good for sport and kids participating in it…learning there will ALWAYS be someone with an advantage over you…better horse, more money, more time, more natural talent, more experience. There will always be someone better. It is a competition. No competition nor life has a complete level playing field.

So you control what you can control, you practice…you improve…and hopefully you become competitive but you learn both how to win, how to lose, how to keep things in perspective. I think it is FAR FAR FAR worse for the sport to lessen competition. To try and make it so people can more easily win…or worse…to give participation ribbons. The focus not on placings but the process of how you ride and train your horse…and learning to have fun regardless. And hell yea be competitive and try to win…and be proud of when you do. And the accomplishment you feel when ultimately rising to the top in significant competition is 100000x better then getting a ribbon in a class less competitive…and learning to keep your competitive drive, that good things do not come without time and hard work is what is important to the sport.

[Sing_Mia_Song]

Yes, the rule is correct for the sport. I think an age group open equitation division should be open to those in the age group, irrespective of their other experience. Said rider may be accomplished in other rings (generally on different horses) and still have a bona fide reason for competing in the open eq: new horse, green horse, lookie-loo horse who needs a spin around the ring before the medals–heck, maybe the rider herself just wants to do an open class before the medal to get herself warmed up. If the open eq isn’t the place for that, what is?

Whatever happened to maiden/novice/limit/intermediate classes, anyway? Bring those back, along with the one-day B shows!

[poltroon]

A bunch of y’all are misreading this. No one said the rules were broken. Questioning whether the rule is correct for the sport.

I didn’t misread it; I thought I was pretty responsive in saying that I thought the situation was not surprising and that it was correct for the sport.

This is an open class at a show that is the highest level, at the most competitive venue in our sport. To exclude kids because they’ve jumped bigger fences is IMHO actively bad for our sport.

1. It makes equitation classes at the biggest national venue smaller and less competitive, and it lessens the opportunities for people to compete against the very best riders. It takes away from riders who aren’t yours.

2. It would discourage some kids from trying the bigger jumps, in order to stay eligible.

If instead your concern is “we take these kids to WEF and there’s no place they are competitive enough to get feedback on their riding” that is a different problem and perhaps is better solved in other ways, like:

1. restoring the Maiden/Novice/Limit classes
2. Adding a restricted eq division in addition that limits on heights jumped
3. Attending different shows.

Lots of kids who top tenned at Medal finals last year won’t have jumped in a GP and your rule wouldn’t keep them out.