Age limit forcing retirement of top judges as CDI numbers increase

[MysticOakRanch]

@dotneko

They upped the score requirements in the meantime

This is another thing holding up some of the good candidates - if you don’t have the fancy horse, getting those scores is tough! That happened (the score increase) back when I was going through the L, and I basically gave up going on. In California, you don’t get a 65% at 4th or PSG without the right horse:no:

Now USDF’s increased the riding requirements for the L Program too - scores at 3rd level instead of 2nd level. That meant a few of “my” people can’t complete their L either.

The requirements just get tougher - will we end up with a shortage of judges? I don’t know - we have several new rs and Rs in my area - which is great, but how many will go on to S and even beyond?

I don’t know - it is an interesting conversation, and one I’ve had with several people in my area too.

BTW, the people I know that are trying to advance are judging for free so they can get all those required 2nd level or 4th levels on their judging card. And 4th 3 is VERY hard to find because no one wants to RIDE it:eek:

Your story just further illustrates how HARD it is to become a judge… Back in the days - it was easier. Now we have one of the most comprehensive judge training programs in the world, but it has made it a lot HARDER to become a judge.

[digihorse]

And the BIG 64 million dollar question is: Has it made for better judging? Or has it just made impossible for those who trained their way up… had competent scores on moderate horses and have demonstrated they can walk the walk, without buying the scores with a fancy horse. OR… that like many by the time you are 50+ may not have the body left to ride the tests. Doesn’t mean you would not make a wonderful judge.

I think the issue is relying on the scores in the show ring, versus the knowledge and experience of the person applying. Can they demonstrate the knowledge to judge a level? Yes or no? THis doesn’t mean contrary to some opinions that they must currently be able to ride that level. I would be curious what the criteria is in the UK/Germany for its judges.

[dotneko]

I just wanted to add - of the seven in my S, only one of us was young enough to be able to pursue FEI promotion. I don’t know the typical makeup of an S program. Were we a particularly old group or average?

[ArabDiva]

@rothmpp

The cost of even getting your L graduate is in the thousands. For me, part 1 was $800 JUST for the program fee. That doesn’t cover travel, lodging, food, & loss of income. Part 2 was $1500 - again just for the program. And you have to do that before you can even think about the small r. Anecdotally - I’ve heard from R judges that some of them get desperate enough for the judging hours to get into the large R that they will offer their services to shows for free.

Not to mention the abysmal thing that is done by a particular show organizer in my region – in order to get your scribing hours for your L, they REQUIRE you to VOLUNTEER an ADDITIONAL day as ring steward or other duties. Did I mention they pay their regular scribes, but not the L candidates?

They know they have the L candidates over a barrel.

[atlatl]

@ArabDiva

Not to mention the abysmal thing that is done by a particular show organizer in my region – in order to get your scribing hours for your L, they REQUIRE you to VOLUNTEER an ADDITIONAL day as ring steward or other duties. Did I mention they pay their regular scribes, but not the L candidates?

They know they have the L candidates over a barrel.

Wow, that stinks!

That said, I’ve only ever been paid to scribe at the West Coast Dressage Festival shows. I’ve scribed all day, every day at the CDS Annual Show / Regional Championships for lunch and a hat.

Actually, I was paid one other time when I scribed for a L candidate who insisted on giving me some money. She was very appreciative.

[dotneko]

Scribing for the judge candidates is often a paid job (unless the candidate ropes a student into doing it). I know I paid my scribes $100 a day for my S apprenticing and testing. A good scribe is a godsend and a bad one can be a disaster.
The woman I used in Florida several times preferred scribing for me - the day was shorter and the pay was a bit better.

[Mondo]

“I think the issue is relying on the scores in the show ring, versus the knowledge and experience of the person applying. Can they demonstrate the knowledge to judge a level? Yes or no? This doesn’t mean contrary to some opinions that they must currently be able to ride that level. I would be curious what the criteria is in the UK/Germany for its judges.”

Amen, sister! I imagine the rationale is that in order to be a good judge, you need to have walked the walk in the show ring. But I don’t know that that is necessarily the case. I know a number of excellent riders/trainers who never show. They could judge the pants off of a lot of licensed judges. Honestly, I think if we tailored our judge training more to the education side than the showing side, we’d have better judges. JMHO YMMV

[atlatl]

@dotneko

Scribing for the judge candidates is often a paid job (unless the candidate ropes a student into doing it). I know I paid my scribes $100 a day for my S apprenticing and testing. A good scribe is a godsend and a bad one can be a disaster.
The woman I used in Florida several times preferred scribing for me - the day was shorter and the pay was a bit better.

I think I’d be getting off cheaper by paying the $100 a day for my L program scribe, which is what they are charging. One of my friends is scribing for me, so I pay all her expenses and finish each day wining and dining her! She is absolutely an awesome scribe and I’m very grateful for her help.

At our last L session, one of the candidates who was paying their scribe had several tests that were missing scores! Granted, the candidate should have caught it, but it would have been nice for the scribe to point it out.

[dotneko]

@atlatl

I think I’d be getting off cheaper by paying the $100 a day for my L program scribe, which is what they are charging. One of my friends is scribing for me, so I pay all her expenses and finish each day wining and dining her! She is absolutely an awesome scribe and I’m very grateful for her help.

At our last L session, one of the candidates who was paying their scribe had several tests that were missing scores! Granted, the candidate should have caught it, but it would have been nice for the scribe to point it out.

To add a little levity - my husband was my scribe for my R program. During the final testing, the first horse come trotting down the centerline. My comments were on the order of ‘businesslike entry, square halt, prompt step off, slight drift before turn - 8’. He whispers to me ’ didn’t you notice that horse was LAME???’. Horse wasn’t lame, he (husband)was just being a jerk. I did kill him after it was over lol.
I used professional scribes for my S…

[ArabDiva]

@dotneko

Scribing for the judge candidates is often a paid job (unless the candidate ropes a student into doing it). I know I paid my scribes $100 a day for my S apprenticing and testing. A good scribe is a godsend and a bad one can be a disaster.
The woman I used in Florida several times preferred scribing for me - the day was shorter and the pay was a bit better.

Just to be clear, I was talking about the 12 scribing hours with 3 different “R” or “S” judges that L program participants must complete before they can take their final L exam – not scribing for judge candidates.

In order to be allowed to VOLUNTEER these scribing hours that are required for the L exam, some organizers in my area require L students to volunteer an additional day in a different role. Even though the L student would be replacing a paid scribe.

Seems to me like an awful way to grow the judging talent pool in our sport.

[Roberta]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;n10123615]

Interesting, there is NOTHING on USDF’s website about this. So, maybe NO ONE is offering judge’s training anymore:cool: I follow USDF news pretty closely, and haven’t seen this announced anywhere - the passing of the torch was done very quietly, and now it is even more secretive then it was when USEF was in charge?.

[Roberta]

@MysticOakRanch

Interesting, there is NOTHING on USDF’s website about this. So, maybe NO ONE is offering judge’s training anymore:cool: I follow USDF news pretty closely, and haven’t seen this announced anywhere - the passing of the torch was done very quietly, and now it is even more secretive then it was when USEF was in charge? .

Actually, the torch passing is not yet a done deal. USEF and USDF are working on an Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) regarding the judge’s training that make sense for both organizations.

At the convention, it was announced that it was “going” to happen, not that it “had” happened. The USEF wants to transfer more reponsibility and tasks to all their affiliates. How USEF and USDF come to terms on passing the torch, so to speak, on the judge’s training will set the precedent for all the affiliates. Clearly USDF understands that once it is done, there is no going back - so they want to get it right.

[MysticOakRanch]

@Roberta

Actually, the torch passing is not yet a done deal. USEF and USDF are working on an Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) regarding the judge’s training that make sense for both organizations.

At the convention, it was announced that it was “going” to happen, not that it “had” happened. The USEF wants to transfer more reponsibility and tasks to all their affiliates. How USEF and USDF come to terms on passing the torch, so to speak, on the judge’s training will set the precedent for all the affiliates. Clearly USDF understands that once it is done, there is no going back - so they want to get it right.

Well that explains why I couldn’t find anything about it on EITHER website. rjr said it had happened - which is what preceded my post. Well, apparently it hasn’t happened yet. This could add to the “bottleneck” since no one will be running a judges program until it is all ironed out.

I suspect, in the long run, it will be better under USDF - they are more “motivated” to ensure dressage is done right. But for anyone who things that USDF will be RUNNING the programs - I highly doubt it. GMOs have to step up to the plate to run the L Program - going to guess this will be the case for “r” , R", and “S” too.

[digihorse]

@MysticOakRanch

…
I suspect, in the long run, it will be better under USDF - they are more “motivated” to ensure dressage is done right. …

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Best laugh of the day.

[MysticOakRanch]

@digihorse

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Best laugh of the day.

Not saying it will be “great”, but if you’ve worked with the two organizations on training events, USDF is more helpful then USEF. Gotta put it in perspective… Neither organization is a master of customer service, but the person in charge of the USDF L Program is actually really great to work with - and maybe that jades my impression a bit…

[Roberta]

@MysticOakRanch

This could add to the “bottleneck” since no one will be running a judges program until it is all ironed out.

Actually, there was a Judges Forum in Denver at the CHP this past weekend and there are two more coming up. One on the East Coast and one on the West Coast. Trying to find the information on the USEF Website is pretty daunting. Finding any information on the USEF Website is daunting, IMHO

[GramV]

This is a good discussion, and I’m glad Axel weighed in. What is disheartening is that even his relatively mild ideas have little chance of being listened to.

I have the qualifications to go to S, but never will because, as stated, the excessive hardship and money, and I have no interest in flying all over the place all of the time. I think the judges coming out now, versus those of early times with fewer qualification, are very capable and I see a lot fewer problems than there used to be in judging in general. But, I think there needs to be a major rethinking in how to qualify judges. A lot of suggestions have been made.

I think we’re missing a huge pool of talent who would be the most eminent of judges, but there is no way they are going to spend the time and money to do it–high level riders who have been doing it forever very successfully. Both Robert Dover and Debbie McDonald are people I think could judge anyone anywhere in the world, and have basically stopped riding because of physical issues, but they will never do it because it’s not worth it. Is there one person who wold not love to ride under them? There are many people like this. There needs to be some alternative to allow experience and time to have a lot of allowance.

As a rider, I always want a judge who has walked the walk and is not just a judge. I can tell. I would rather have someone judge who has done this any day over someone who is qualified through the program, but is not a real rider and trainer of their own horses through the levels.

[SnicklefritzG]

and what would the costs have been for that person to pursue FEI qualification? I can’t imagine what it would be after hearing people talk on this thread about the cost just to go through the L program, and then r, R, and S.

@dotneko

I just wanted to add - of the seven in my S, only one of us was young enough to be able to pursue FEI promotion. I don’t know the typical makeup of an S program. Were we a particularly old group or average?

[SnicklefritzG]

Another thing to add, which may have been alluded to earlier, is that there are many very talented riders and trainers who won’t bother to go through the program. Neither Robert Dover nor Debbie McDonald need to. I’m sure they do quite well with what they charge for lessons and clinics. It doesn’t make sense for them to do it.

What is the future of judging if the return on investment is such that many people won’t bother to do it, but for the love of the sport? Then dressage becomes even more elitist where even the judges have to come from the very well off sector because others have trouble affording it, can’t get the time off work, etc.