Aggressive puppy...any suggestions? Update #45 & #162

[Sswor]

[QUOTE=4THEHORSES;8568291]
I don’t see where this dog has proven aggressive or unstable. Personally it sounds like the behaviour may be muscinstrued, to the detriment of he dog.[/QUOTE]

It snaps and bites at 4 months old. That’s aggressive and unstable behavior. Full stop.

Some critters are just born bad. Dogs, horses, people. It happens. There’s only so much time, effort, money, resources in this world. What’s the point of pouring it all into one animal when there’s about a million more languishing away because of a lack of time, effort, money, resources? Real life isn’t the Black Stallion movie.

[Simkie]

[QUOTE=4THEHORSES;8568291]
I don’t see where this dog has proven aggressive or unstable. Personally it sounds like the behaviour may be muscinstrued, to the detriment of he dog.[/QUOTE]

The dog bit Meaty Ogre’s daughter. How is that not aggressive and unstable?

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=4THEHORSES;8568291]
I don’t see where this dog has proven aggressive or unstable. Personally it sounds like the behaviour may be muscinstrued, to the detriment of he dog.[/QUOTE]

Biting at this young age, family members, not resource guarding or under stress conditions, in a dog with good handling/socialization-- is unusual and aggressive.

[4THEHORSES]

What I’m trying to establish is did it actually bite the daughter or was it that puppy playful behaviour or growl then play bite.

If it’s the latter the the dog shouldn’t be allowed to get away with that but nor is it an aggressive behaviour.

Some people genuinely can’t tell the difference and some young dogs play very or invite play in a manner that’s very rough. Just suggestion she have a pro establish which it is. Aggression or roug puppy behaviour. Based in the post I honestly can’t tell either way.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=4THEHORSES;8568320]
What I’m trying to establish is did it actually bite the daughter or was it that puppy playful behaviour or growl then play bite.

If it’s the latter the the dog shouldn’t be allowed to get away with that but nor is it an aggressive behaviour.

Some people genuinely can’t tell the difference and some young dogs play very or invite play in a manner that’s very rough. Just suggestion she have a pro establish which it is. Aggression or roug puppy behaviour. Based in the post I honestly can’t tell either way.[/QUOTE]

OP says it was a bite and I see no reason to specifically disbelieve this specific part of her description

[Sswor]

[QUOTE=4THEHORSES;8568320]
What I’m trying to establish is did it actually bite the daughter or was it that puppy playful behaviour or growl then play bite.

If it’s the latter the the dog shouldn’t be allowed to get away with that but nor is it an aggressive behaviour.

Some people genuinely can’t tell the difference and some young dogs play very or invite play in a manner that’s very rough. Just suggestion she have a pro establish which it is. Aggression or roug puppy behaviour. Based in the post I honestly can’t tell either way.[/QUOTE]So basically you just assume that the OP is an idiot that cannot properly discern dog behavior.

Do you believe that about everyone who isn’t yourself or just the OP?

[4THEHORSES]

[QUOTE=Sswor;8568336]
So basically you just assume that the OP is an idiot that cannot properly discern dog behavior.

Do you believe that about everyone who isn’t yourself or just the OP?[/QUOTE]

Oh come on, it’s an online forum. Maybe the OP knows for sure its an aggressive bite, maybe she doesn’t. Making a suggestion does not imply that I think the OP is an idiot, it’s just a suggestion incase she hasn’t already considered those circumstances.

Some people can tell the difference but lots can’t. A day trip to the dog beach makes that very apparent!

[Credosporthorses]

OP says bite was unprovoked and occurred as child was walking in the door. To me that is NOT play biting.

[4THEHORSES]

[QUOTE=Credosporthorses;8568365]
OP says bite was unprovoked and occurred as child was walking in the door. To me that is NOT play biting.[/QUOTE]

Based on my own experience I wouldn’t be so sure it was even a true bite. She said he dog but the kids clothing. I’m pretty sure if most dogs were giving a truly aggressive bite they’d get a lot more than just the clothing.

Again, just food for though and I really think it’s impossible to tell for sure from the post.

A good trainer would be he best bet and I suggest that because the SIL has taken to dog and wants to give it a chance. It’s best chance is to get to the root cause of the behaviour via a skilled trainer.

[Sswor]

Um. If we are to presume that the OP misinterpreted the puppy’s actions, why in the world would we also encourage her to keep working with the dog? Would she not be the very last person on earth that ought to own a difficult dog?

[4THEHORSES]

[QUOTE=Sswor;8568432]
Um. If we are to presume that the OP misinterpreted the puppy’s actions, why in the world would we also encourage her to keep working with the dog? Would she not be the very last person on earth that ought to own a difficult dog?[/QUOTE]

Because the dog is now with the SIL and with a good trainer to help they could learn a lot. Or have confidence in rehoming the dog following a pro behavioural evaluation.

If it is indeed the case that they just lack experience (might be, might not be) then here’s nothing to stop them from learning, provided they seek help. Sometimes these issues aren’t all that difficult to correct, it just takes the right approach/skills.

[Sswor]

Again, with all the baziliions of homeless dogs, in what way is it prudent to devote all of these resources towards one that has already proven to be difficult?

[red_mares]

[QUOTE=4THEHORSES;8568363]
Oh come on, it’s an online forum. Maybe the OP knows for sure its an aggressive bite, maybe she doesn’t. Making a suggestion does not imply that I think the OP is an idiot, it’s just a suggestion incase she hasn’t already considered those circumstances.

Some people can tell the difference but lots can’t. A day trip to the dog beach makes that very apparent![/QUOTE]

Get real. Breeders do not offer to take back and replace puppies for no reason. This was not a ‘one of’ thing for the dog. The pup has been handled by people who are familiar with the breed and it’s potential pitfalls.

If a puppy needs a military dog handler at 4 months old to have a semblance of safety, I would send the dog over the rainbow in a heartbeat.

[EKLay]

[QUOTE=french fry;8568250]
I would take this a step further and ask why we continue to breed these “aloof” and “protective” (which I think are euphemisms for “unable to be properly socialized”) breeds and praise it as a breed standard.[/QUOTE]

For me, aloof means just that - aloof. I’m not a huge fan of dogs that think everyone or everything is their best friend, and I prefer a dog that is reserved in public and with strangers.

[pezk]

[QUOTE=Sswor;8568452]
Again, with all the baziliions of homeless dogs, in what way is it prudent to devote all of these resources towards one that has already proven to be difficult?[/QUOTE]

Because it’s none of your business how much OP and her SIL want to spend on training.
Do I think these people are doing it right? No. They, just like many others here have no clue about serious training. I honestly don’t know what many of you think training is. It’s not “Oh nice doggy, please sit and I ll give you a cookie. Oh please sit.”
I sure wouldn’t write off this puppy without a consult with a professional trainer who has an excellent reputation for dealing with aggressive dogs and a serious commitment to training.

[4THEHORSES]

[QUOTE=red mares;8568462]
Get real. Breeders do not offer to take back and replace puppies for no reason. This was not a ‘one of’ thing for the dog. The pup has been handled by people who are familiar with the breed and it’s potential pitfalls.

If a puppy needs a military dog handler at 4 months old to have a semblance of safety, I would send the dog over the rainbow in a heartbeat.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t say the puppy NEEDS a military dog handler, I suggested that as a source or reliable dog trainers. Is a quick way to separate the real dog trainers from the wannabe types.

Just because it wasn’t a one off thing doesn’t automatically mean the dog is aggressive either. Obviously, if the didn’t take appropriate steps to correct the behaviour the first time, it’ll happen again, and again, until they understand how to deal with it.

[4THEHORSES]

[QUOTE=pezk;8568499]
Because it’s none of your business how much OP and her SIL want to spend on training.
Do I think these people are doing it right? No. They, just like many others here have no clue about serious training. I honestly don’t know what many of you think training is. It’s not “Oh nice doggy, please sit and I ll give you a cookie. Oh please sit.”
I sure wouldn’t write off this puppy without a consult with a professional trainer who has an excellent reputation for dealing with aggressive dogs and a serious commitment to training.[/QUOTE]

This x 1000.

Going back to the dog beach reference I, unfortunately, see so many clueless dog owners. With some dogs you can get away with it but with others proper training is necessary and will often result in you having a very nice dog.

And socialization is not equal to training. It should certainly be part of every dogs education but there are plenty of well socialized dogs out there who lack even the most basic training.

[french_fry]

[QUOTE=EKLay;8568467]
For me, aloof means just that - aloof. I’m not a huge fan of dogs that think everyone or everything is their best friend, and I prefer a dog that is reserved in public and with strangers.[/QUOTE]

Meh, I’m totally with Jean Donaldson on this one.

Selective breeding practices dance with the devil all the time by stating, in breed standards, temperament characteristics such as “aloof,” “wary of strangers,” “one family dog” etc. etc. The behavior these stated ideals flirt with (and too often consummate) is fear and aggression towards strangers. The mythical dog is one who can tell the good guys from the bad guys…For every anecdotal report of an otherwise (allegedly) perfectly friendly dog who nailed a burglar there are scores, hundreds, perhaps thousand of dogs that, for identical reasons, nailed the neighbor, the delivery guy or a child in the park.

via her book “The Culture Clash.”

At the end of the day, having a dog that is predisposed to be nearly impossible to socialize to the point where it is not defensive and anxious around new people is not worth the 5% chance that that same antisocial behavior may one day save me from a burglar. I’d rather my dog be socialized and comfortable with people in his/her daily life.

[4THEHORSES]

To add one more thing a good breeder does not by any means equate to a seasoned behavioralist/trainer. While hey may be familiar with he traits or potential issues with the breed that does mean they have he skills to deal with it or even discern the extent or an issue.

Just as here are great horse breeders out there who are by no stretch of the imagination qualified as trainers.

[Sswor]

[QUOTE=4THEHORSES;8568522]
This x 1000.

Going back to the dog beach reference I, unfortunately, see so many clueless dog owners. With some dogs you can get away with it but with others proper training is necessary and will often result in you having a very nice dog.

And socialization is not equal to training. It should certainly be part of every dogs education but there are plenty of well socialized dogs out there who lack even the most basic training.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Actually.

But here’s the point. Hundreds of thousands of dogs are owned and managed by idiots every single day in this country. Hundreds of thousands of dogs do not bite and rip the clothes of children in their families.

Do you and pezk wish for a world where only skilled and experienced handlers can successfully own and manage dogs?

That’s weird. It’s a dog. Not a tiger.