Aggressive puppy...any suggestions? Update #45 & #162

[QUOTE=Sswor;8568535]
Agreed. Actually.

But here’s the point. Hundreds of thousands of dogs are owned and managed by idiots every single day in this country. Hundreds of thousands of dogs do not bite and rip the clothes of children in their families.

Do you and pezk wish for a world where only skilled and experienced handlers can successfully own and manage dogs?

That’s weird. It’s a dog. Not a tiger.[/QUOTE]

The OP didn’t say this dog ‘ripped the cloths off’ anyone. She said it bit the kids clothing.

And nothing I’ve said suggests that every dog needs a skilled and experienced owner. Many do not but some do.

Read again, 4.

[QUOTE=Sswor;8568578]
Read again, 4.[/QUOTE]

You mean the OP post, right? She’s said the only damage was ripped pants and a sock? To my mind that doesn’t equate to ripping someone’s clothing off.

[QUOTE=Sswor;8568535]
Agreed. Actually.

But here’s the point. Hundreds of thousands of dogs are owned and managed by idiots every single day in this country. Hundreds of thousands of dogs do not bite and rip the clothes of children in their families.

Do you and pezk wish for a world where only skilled and experienced handlers can successfully own and manage dogs?

That’s weird. It’s a dog. Not a tiger.[/QUOTE]

I don’t wish for the world you describe BUT I don’t want only the mellow, easily dealt with dogs either. Different strokes for different folks but if someone chooses to spend their time and money on a difficult dog with the appropriate commitment, that’s their business.

[QUOTE=Sswor;8568268]
With the glut of perfectly nice, stable, sane dogs out there in desperate need of homes, why do people continue to press to go to such extremes to work with a dog that has already proven to be aggressive and unstable?

I just don’t get it. It’s not like there is a shortage of nice dogs in the world.[/QUOTE]

Me either.
This puppy has escalated its aggressive behavior to the point of biting the OP’s CHILD, and this isn’t enough to warrant euthing it?
Here’s the really disturbing part. More than likely, the child’s view of dogs will now be colored with fear by this one aggressive dog that should have been dealt with the way the breeder suggested. What a shame.

Just curious what was the age of the puppy when the OP got him?
Puppies separated from their litter too young often haven’t had a chance to learn bite inhibition…

[QUOTE=TBROCKS;8568665]
Me either.
This puppy has escalated its aggressive behavior to the point of biting the OP’s CHILD, and this isn’t enough to warrant euthing it?
Here’s the really disturbing part. More than likely, the child’s view of dogs will now be colored with fear by this one aggressive dog that should have been dealt with the way the breeder suggested. What a shame.[/QUOTE]

I was attacked by a neighbor’s German Shepherd completely unprovoked when I was 6 years old. I was jumping rope over 20 feet away in their front yard. The neighbor was there, with his two German Shepherds, in the same large front yard. His kid, who was a couple years younger than me and three or four other kids from the street were also there playing together.

Many times I’ve looked back at this incident and realized how lucky I am that this didn’t create a lifetime phobia of large dogs. I grew up with four Standard Poodles and was around other show dogs regularly. Had it not been for years of good memories with large dogs, that bite would have colored my view of dogs for the rest of my life.

The one saving grace for this child is that the OP has other dogs of the same breed. But every child is different. I think the worst case scenario for this dog is it getting loose one day.

I had a neighbor in the same time frame as the above story with a Chow Chow that got out constantly. I had no fear of strange dogs and would go up to them if they seemed friendly. That Chow Chow was the one dog I never attempted to approach even though I saw it all the time when I was by myself. It never acted outwardly aggressive (growling, barking etc) but something about it’s body posture and the way it would stare at me said “leave me alone.” But again, I had a lot of experience with dogs even at that young age. There are a lot of kids who would not have seen the warning signs and I doubt it would have ended well.

[QUOTE=TequilaMockingbird;8568799]
I was attacked by a neighbor’s German Shepherd completely unprovoked when I was 6 years old. I was jumping rope over 20 feet away in their front yard. The neighbor was there, with his two German Shepherds, in the same large front yard. His kid, who was a couple years younger than me and three or four other kids from the street were also there playing together.

Many times I’ve looked back at this incident and realized how lucky I am that this didn’t create a lifetime phobia of large dogs. I grew up with four Standard Poodles and was around other show dogs regularly. Had it not been for years of good memories with large dogs, that bite would have colored my view of dogs for the rest of my life.

The one saving grace for this child is that the OP has other dogs of the same breed. But every child is different. I think the worst case scenario for this dog is it getting loose one day.

I had a neighbor in the same time frame as the above story with a Chow Chow that got out constantly. I had no fear of strange dogs and would go up to them if they seemed friendly. That Chow Chow was the one dog I never attempted to approach even though I saw it all the time when I was by myself. It never acted outwardly aggressive (growling, barking etc) but something about it’s body posture and the way it would stare at me said “leave me alone.” But again, I had a lot of experience with dogs even at that young age. There are a lot of kids who would not have seen the warning signs and I doubt it would have ended well.[/QUOTE]

I was attacked and bitten somewhat seriously (broken skin, blood) by a friend’s cocker spaniel when I was a kid. The dog was known to bite and their solution was to keep it locked away when any guests were over. Well, life’s imperfect. I was out in the yard with my friend and grandmother didn’t see us out there and let the dog out. It came running up and bit me, no warning or effort to retreat. We didn’t make a big deal about it, but it could have been very very bad (luckily this was in the 80s and I was wearing an oversized sweatshirt covered with disco mirror things which ended up providing a decent shield between the teeth and my skin, but even so I ended up with a bleeding wound).

Things were less litigious back them. From then on I didn’t go to friend’s house, if we played together she came over to mine.

To this day I am very wary of cockers. I don’t like putting my hand near their faces. There is nothing in the world that would ever result in me letting one near my face no matter HOW well I knew the dog. And I love animals and generally like dogs. But I want NOTHING to do with cockers, I will always be leery of them.

[QUOTE=jetsmom;8568773]
Just curious what was the age of the puppy when the OP got him?
Puppies separated from their litter too young often haven’t had a chance to learn bite inhibition…[/QUOTE]

I wondered the same. Our Dobbie was separated from the Mom too early but it’s ok because our female GSD does a good job of bridging that gap.

If that’s the root of the behaviour it can be corrected but again it usually required a pro.

[QUOTE=Hawkridge;8566654]
I dunno…I think as the breeder I would be concerned about having one of my dogs, potentially labeled as dangerous, attached to my name. I wouldn’t want someone who is shopping for a pup though me hearing about that one dog being dangerous, thus losing a sale based on that. A responsible breeder would/should euth a puppy that is not quite right in the head IMO…but I’m no breeder. I vote to give the puppy back to her. Sometimes being PTS is the kindest thing you can do.[/QUOTE]

And since the dog hasn’t been neutered the breeder could be thinking what if these people breed this dog and he passes on his mental issues?

[QUOTE=vxf111;8568816]
To this day I am very wary of cockers. I don’t like putting my hand near their faces. There is nothing in the world that would ever result in me letting one near my face no matter HOW well I knew the dog. And I love animals and generally like dogs. But I want NOTHING to do with cockers, I will always be leery of them.[/QUOTE]

I worked as a dog groomer for a very short time in the 1990s. American Cocker Spaniels in general were a groomer’s nightmare. We all cringed when one walked through the door. The English Cocker Spaniels were very sweet, but the American cockers were just awful. I have no idea if that’s changed, but they were consistently near the top of “dogs that bite” lists back then.

No one said “ripped the clothes off” but you. Read Sswor’s post again. She said “rip the clothes OF children”.

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8568980]
I worked as a dog groomer for a very short time in the 1990s. American Cocker Spaniels in general were a groomer’s nightmare. We all cringed when one walked through the door. The English Cocker Spaniels were very sweet, but the American cockers were just awful. I have no idea if that’s changed, but they were consistently near the top of “dogs that bite” lists back then.[/QUOTE]

I worked for a small animal vet in the late 80’s. My first day, he asked me which dog breeds I thought were the most likely to bite, and when I got it wrong, told me that male black Cocker Spaniels were the top of the list. (I had a buff female at home at the time, and she never bit in the 14 years I owned her, so I had no clue that Cockers were that bitey.)

Seeing how this developed, OP you and your SIL are way kinder than anyone in my family would have been, myself included. If a dog did as you described on our property it would be in the ground within half an hour.

I am not sure if i read it anywhere, but did you reprimand the pup in any way for snapping and growling at first? Just curious.

The big difference, is this is a young pup not even mature yet. What happens when it reaches sexual maturity? Has reasons more to become territorial? He already went after a family member with no reason, imagine what he would do to a stranger if he got loose at an older age?

Now another point ill make, is i believe you said your kids were older? Well, imagine if this dog did the same thing to a 6 year old? The damage could be greater, but the mental scarring would be probably much much worse.

Ill probably be called heartless and cruel, but honestly its better for all those involved to just put the pup down. The breeder offered you a replacement, it would probably help your daughter get over any issues as well if she could work with a pup again that did not have any issues as you described

Its just not worth the risk of physical and mental damage, not when there are plenty of sweet and non aggressive dogs out there waiting for someone to give them a chance to prove it. Sure, it could be trained or corrected by a pro… but there will always forever be that little hint of what a dog did. That would be enough for me to never trust it, and never want it around my family.

[QUOTE=Sswor;8568535]
Agreed. Actually.

But here’s the point. Hundreds of thousands of dogs are owned and managed by idiots every single day in this country. Hundreds of thousands of dogs do not bite and rip the clothes of children in their families.

Do you and pezk wish for a world where only skilled and experienced handlers can successfully own and manage dogs?

That’s weird. It’s a dog. Not a tiger.[/QUOTE]

4 month old tigers are actually quite friendly and non aggressive, fyi.

[QUOTE=snowrider;8569240]
4 month old tigers are actually quite friendly and non aggressive, fyi.[/QUOTE]

AND SO CUTE OMG.

Not 16 weeks yet, but adorable and we need some cute on this thread

[QUOTE=4THEHORSES;8568593]
You mean the OP post, right? She’s said the only damage was ripped pants and a sock? To my mind that doesn’t equate to ripping someone’s clothing off.[/QUOTE]

Read MY post again.

[QUOTE=Sswor;8568535]Agreed. Actually.

But here’s the point. Hundreds of thousands of dogs are owned and managed by idiots every single day in this country. Hundreds of thousands of dogs do not bite and rip the clothes of children in their families.

Do you and pezk wish for a world where only skilled and experienced handlers can successfully own and manage dogs?

That’s weird. It’s a dog. Not a tiger.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=pezk;8568602]
I don’t wish for the world you describe BUT I don’t want only the mellow, easily dealt with dogs either. Different strokes for different folks but if someone chooses to spend their time and money on a difficult dog with the appropriate commitment, that’s their business.[/QUOTE]

Unless you live on your own private island, the world doesn’t need dogs like that. They should be culled. Those ~40 people killed by dogs a year might not be dead if everyone did the right thing and culled these kinds of dogs. Your second chance could be some poor vet, vet tech, groomer, family member, mailman, neighbor, or perfect stranger that gets bit. Dogs bites are serious. It’s not, oh oops.

I’m surprised your breeder isn’t insisting the dog be returned to her since you are not keeping him. Most, if not all, the COE breeders I know have it in their puppy contracts that if the dog is to be rehomed it returns to them. The breeders I know, and respect, do not want a dog of their breeding to be passed on. Plus they most certainly don’t want a dog of theirs with a questionable temperamemet out in the public.

This is a bad idea. When (and not if) this dog attacks again, it may not be minor or biting clothing. It could destroy someone’s life, and leave mental and physical damage that can never be healed. It’s good to feel sorry for a dog, but it’s wrong to think someone else can be perfect, and keep the animal from harming animals or people forever. One slip on the SIL or her family, and the results will be tragic.