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Ah... so THAT's why you ground drive in an arena!

Driving
#1

Oy… what a day!

I haven’t done much lately with Panda-chan - it’s been hot, and I spent a lot of time last week with my father-in-law, schlepping him around to various appointments. But we’ve done some short longeing sessions, and some walks where we’ve worked on “whoa” and having 2 different walk speeds.

Yesterday, I longed him for about 10 minutes after I rode the other 2, and he seemed to be starting to get the trot - walk - trot voice commands.

Today, I decided to tack him up & ground drive him. He wasn’t terribly interested in standing still to be groomed & have his feet picked, but we managed. Also wasn’t thrilled by the bridle, but again, we managed.

And off we went to the arena, which is about 25m x 30m. As I drove him in, I shoved the gate shut behind me, but didn’t stop to latch it. So there was a little gap, but it was mostly shut. (Yeah, yeah, I know :lol:)

So we worked. I walked beside him. I walked behind him. I walked on the off side. We turned. We walked through the low cavalletti in the middle of the arena. We whoa’d. We walked. We turned. We whoa’d. He wiggled. We whoa’d some more.

And then, the little sh!t took off. No warning, no obvious reason - no swarm of Africanized bees descending on his furry little butt. He just took off. Dropped his hiney into low gear and away he went. I water-skied behind him for a bit, bellowing “Whoa!” and “Damnit, pony!”, but then I couldn’t hold the lines, and he was free.

He made a couple laps of the arena at a gallop, then stopped just past the gate and turned to look at me. As he did that, I saw him look over at the gate - the not-quite-shut gate - the a-clever-pony-could-nudge-this-open gate. So I scooted on over and latched it, and then went to collect the evil one.

And we walked. And we turned. And we whoa’d. And we walked some more.

And the little sh!t took off again! This time, fortunately, I was able to hang onto the near rein and get his head cranked around so that he stopped. Kinda hard to run when you’re folded in half, I guess.

I grabbed the other rein as I walked over to him, but then I was stuck. I had a firm grip on both reins, hanging on his face to keep him still, as he revved his engines and sort of piaffed, but the off-side rein was between his hind legs. I considered and rejected the idea of trying to work him like that… and managed to get that rein back where it belonged without losing him again.

And we walked. And we turned. And we turned in the other direction. And then we turned some more. And we whoa’d. And walked. And whoa’d. And turned.

When I decided that he had sufficiently paid for his sins, I realized I was stuck again. I did NOT want to drive him out the gate and over to the trailer to get him untacked, just in case he decided he should take off again. But his halter & lead rope were over at the trailer.

So I drove him far away from the gate, took a death grip on the reins under his chin with one hand, pulled the reins through the tugs (that’s how I’ve been ground-driving him, so I have a better chance of keeping him from spinning to face me - in theory), undid the crupper, undid the overcheck, undid the girth, and pulled off the harness. (Thank goodness he’s small, so I could reach everything while holding his face!) Then I took off the bridle and ignored his pleas for a post-workout treat.

Then I went and got his halter and the long lead rope I use to longe him, and his furry little butt got worked some more. NEXT time, I’ll be doing that BEFORE I harness him!

NEXT time, I will also either be tacking him up inside the arena, or I will be bringing his halter and lead rope with us to the arena. Where the gate will be shut and latched. :cool:

On the plus side, as we were walking back to the pens where his big brothers were having breakfast, I made him whoa several times, and he halted quite nicely. And promptly. So he did get one mint - on the ground because he’s mouthy - right before he got put away.

Can someone please remind me why I thought this would be a good idea?

#2

Guess I would be going back to some leading work to get that Whoa fixed. Sorry, but that Whoa is the BEST gait a driving animal has. If he won’t Whoa when asked, you have to fix it.

I want mine stopping on the Word, whether or not I am pulling the reins. He is leading beside me on a slack line, not pulling or going to ground, stopping on the Word. This is a big training step, done until he WILL stop. We can’t advance if he won’t obey.

Sorry, the Western side comes out for me when a horse won’t stop, because for ME that is REALLY IMPORTANT! Horse MUST obey when asked or he is not living here. Your life could be on the line for him being obedient, ridden or driven. Solid Whoa HAS come into effect in situations, our horse obeyed, Whoa stopped them, no one got hurt.

What do you have on for a bit? You have now lost the argument twice, Pony WILL be trying that trick again!! I am a believer that sometimes you need a bigger bit to get a result, then you can go back to the lesser bit once animal understands. With a true, mindless runaway, no bit will make a difference in stopping them. But for the animal just being obnoxious, a leverage factor can change their mind, to get thru that stage in training. You also may need some professional help from an experienced Driving trainer. A few lessons might give you some insight, better handling method, to get back to being the “lead mare” with Pony. You really do have to be in charge, he HAS to believe you are!! The Pro may be able to point at problems your body language is giving off, that Pony is getting.

#3

Think of it this way…they’re not really miniature – they’re CONCENTRATES. They have all the ˜spirit and personality of a full-sized horse packed into a tiny body.

Mingus used to be such a booger at times. He pulled a similar stunt while I was working him in our trainer/coach’s arena, and her advice was simply to go get him and pick up where we left off, so that he learned that even if he got away, I would be right back at him.

Then we had a little accidental lesson at home. I’m not suggesting this as a deliberate training technique…just as an aside:

I was longeing Mingus in a dry lot that had a fir tree in it. He decided to take off and just happened to go on the opposite side of the tree from me. As the line tightened, I gave enough that he didn’t hit the end hard, but with the tree as a fulcrum, I suddenly had the strength of ten grinches (or susannes) plus two. He gave me a look like – OH SH*T…game over. He never tried that again.

#4

susanne
CONCENTRATES - I like that :wink:

And I love the idea of being able to use physics against him… too bad I have no trees in my arena :lol:

goodhors
You will get NO disagreement from me that he needs a reliable whoa. We have a lot more groundwork ahead of us before he ever sees the inside of a set of shafts.

I have to keep reminding myself that this is not Prozac Pony or Mr. Blondie, who can sit around for weeks on end and then be taken out for a sedate solo ride around the 'hood. (Most of the time - they do have their moments :D)

This is basically an unknown (and a pony, to boot), who has not been asked to do much of anything except for the very occasional pony ride for a wee child for the past 2 1/2 years, and who spent the 3 years prior to coming here in a field. By himself.

So he’s nowhere near as well-trained as my riding horses. As he keeps demonstrating :sigh:

I don’t think that I really lost the argument twice - the second time he bolted today, he didn’t get loose. I dropped one rein, but I still had the other, and he didn’t get very far - he sort of went in an arc around me. And he went right back to work (as he did after I caught him the first time).

And the time he took off when we were out on the dirt road in front of the house, he didn’t get loose, either. I managed to hang on to one rein.

I’m not saying that these incidents have been wonderful training experiences, but I’ve only totally lost control once (and how HAPPY I was that I was ground driving, not sitting in a cart behind him!).

As for the bit - it’s a single-jointed half cheek snaffle. And it’s too big for him. But I have been slothful about getting a bit that fits him - and uncertain as to what type I should get. Plus I think the headstall is probably a little too large, so anything like a Glory bit or a Liverpool or a Baucher, with the part that sticks up where you attach the cheekpieces, isn’t going to work with this headstall. I need to take a closer look, and see if I can order some shorter cheekpieces, or get someone to shorten the ones I have.

I’ve measured his mouth twice, using a handy - clean, unused! - railroad spike that I happen to have sitting around. I hold the pointy end towards me and slip the other end into his mouth, then mark the length with my finger and thumb, remove it from his mouth, and measure the width. I’ve gotten 3.75" and 4.5" :rolleyes:

Clearly, I need to do that again. But at any rate, his 5" bit is without question too big.

I know, I know - lots of excuses. I need a Plan.

Or maybe I just need Step 1 of the Plan, which is: install a reliable WHOA in that boy!

Thanks for the feedback, and for listening to me blather.

#5

How are your lines run? Are they through stirrups or lose so when you’re angled they move over his hocks or are they in a surcingle? I don’t drive but I will ground drive horses before I get on them. I start out plow reining with the lines through stirrups and the outside line over the hocks because it’s easier on their mouth/head when they are learning then I’ll go to a surcingle with the outside line over their back on a circle when they need more refinement.

I had one that would come after me on the lunge line and eventually in the long lines when she decided she didn’t want to play anymore. I put a surcingle on her right away and used all my leverage off her halter rings to fold her butt in half a few times. She was a lot of fun.

#6

You just reminded me of the time I got run away with by a friend’s mini (more like a mutant!) about 20 years ago in a sulky cart all around a big field. I couldn’t believe the way he took off and I was laughing too hard to even pull him up; I believe anything under 12 hands has a demonic streak! :smiley:

#7

enjoytheride
I have the reins run through the tugs - basically, where the side rings would be on a surcingle. The first time I worked him in his harness (i.e., the FIRST time he bolted :winkgrin:) I had the reins run through the terrets. And it was simple for him to spin.

Since then, I’ve run the reins through the tugs. So if I’m beside him, the offside rein is over his hocks. Doesn’t seem to bother him.

He sure is a speedy little bugger when he decides to take off.

#8

hehehe, they are sneaky and quick aren’t they?? I will go out on a limb and say we have all been there, bad days happen along with the good. You get past it just like anything else.

Generally speaking I’m not a fan of bitting up, but in a case like this I agree with Goodhors. He is going to try to run through your aids again, and again, and again, and again. Imho, this is a case of “if you’re going to be rude, I’m going to be ruder” and he needs to seriously checked and learn this will not happen again.

You must nip the desire to even try that stunt again in the bud.

Of all the vices my morgan presented me when deciding whether to attempt driving him or not, his confirmed bolting under saddle frightened me the most. I had chronic nightmares of being run off with in a cart. I didn’t have a driving bit yet, I had been long lining him in a B ring boucher bean mouth snaffle, very mild bit. He was angelic 90% of the time, but the 10% really scared me. I actually limp now because of him and one of the times he spun and took off when I was long lining him and I ran for all I was worth to keep up (he did not get away, but came awfully close).

When it came time to start hitching him, I moved over to a boucher cheek waterford mouth, crude but I wanted the peace of mind of a hand brake. To my surprise he LOVED the bit. And, it had tremendous braking power. A couple of times he was legitimately frightened and attempted, a couple of times he was a little sh*t and attempted, each time he got sat down on his bum and told NO this will NOT happen under ANY circumstance.

I would move “find better fitting bit” closer to the top of your priority list. One that fits better will give you more control just at that.

Can you poke a hole or two in your bridle to allow for a taller cheek bit? A driving bit is nice because, like a kimbewick, it has different settings from snaffle to quite strong curb and a range in between.

#9

I would go back basic manners and voice commands. I would add “Stand” to the voice commands. I use “stand” when I tack up and untack. It means total immmoblity, no creeping(forwards, backwards, or sideways). I also use “stand” for when I am hitching and unhitching, or any circumstance that the horse needs to be immobile.

And get a bit that he is happy with but one you have the option of being nice and having brakes when needed.

#10

jcotton - Bryan, Texas? My daughter got married in Bryan, Texas, at the Miramont (my son-in-law’s mom knows the head chef there :D)

I agree with both you & buck22 - I need better brakes, and he needs better manners.

I’ll take some pictures later of the bridle - I’m pretty sure that it is cranked up as short as it can go. When Driving Clinic Guy was fitting it, I didn’t think about the fact that I might eventually want to use a different style bit that would require shorter cheekpieces. :no:

#11

Unless its a $$$ bridle - you can always tie a single knot in the cheeks to take up some slack til you get what you need

Our BO is currently breaking a not quite 2yo and got a cheapo bridle
Dont go that route - hers has already broken (yes repairable, but)

you dont have to spend a lot to get something decent

check out tack sales for used??
and measure over the head -bit-o-bit
so you get the right size

#12

Just wanting to interject that “we managed” does not make for going to the next step. In other words- if you can’t pick his feet up or groom him until he is standing perfectly still every time- he isn’t even ready for tack yet. Remember- one good run through a gate, any accident no matter how big or small can ruin the entire thing for everyone.

#13

Bridle photos

Two photos of the bridle (and one photo of Thing 1’s feet as he came to investigate what I was doing :wink:

As you can see, it’s as short as it’s gonna get. And there’s no way I could tie a knot in those cheekpieces even if I wanted to.

Bottom line is, I bought something that didn’t really fit. My own fault. :frowning:

IMG00002a.jpg

IMG00003a.jpg

#14

DNJ2 here

If you have a saddler nearby, you can have the bit buckles moved up on the cheekpieces for training purposes to get a better fit.

Consider NOT using an overcheck (the piece that attaches to the bit, goes over the head and connects to the saddle. Most in carriage driving don’t use it. We DO use a caveson. You can add a riding caveson to this bridle.

If the pony is bolting, you need to work that out before doing much where he is away from you on long-lines. There he has leverage to leave.

As you said… he needs manners and a WHOA installed.

Good thing he’s cute!

#15

Can you take off the keeper just above the bit, before the buckle? That and a hole punch would move it up some. I had to do that with my fine harness bridle, they don’t come in in-between sizes off the rack.

Something that I’ve grown up with long lining lots of horses is a piece of clothesline rope 12-18" long tied in the middle to the saddle where the crupper hooks in. When you’re done working, coil reins and tie with the rope. It keeps them from falling down better than just putting them in the back strap. You can then lead the horse/pony from behind the bit without drowing in miles of lines.

#16

[QUOTE=Drive NJ;6330044]
DNJ2 here

If you have a saddler nearby, you can have the bit buckles moved up on the cheekpieces for training purposes to get a better fit.

Consider NOT using an overcheck (the piece that attaches to the bit, goes over the head and connects to the saddle. Most in carriage driving don’t use it. We DO use a caveson. You can add a riding caveson to this bridle.

If the pony is bolting, you need to work that out before doing much where he is away from you on long-lines. There he has leverage to leave.

As you said… he needs manners and a WHOA installed.

Good thing he’s cute![/QUOTE]

It is indeed a good thing he’s cute :smiley:

I wondered about the overcheck - it’s not like there’s any grass around for him to dive for, anyway… and it’s just one more set of straps to mess with when I’m trying to figure out what to do with his Don King forelock.

I also wondered about the lack of a caveson. Driving Clinic Guy doesn’t use them on his drafts. Some of the horses get a flash-like device that he uses sort of like a caveson, but it’s not attached to anything else.

Gee… I guess I need to do some tack shopping. Oh, darn!

I wonder if it would be cheaper to pay someone to redo the cheekpieces I have vs. buying replacement ones in the correct size…

IMG_0478a.jpg

#17

[QUOTE=red mares;6330156]
Can you take off the keeper just above the bit, before the buckle? That and a hole punch would move it up some. I had to do that with my fine harness bridle, they don’t come in in-between sizes off the rack.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm… my first reaction was that doing that wouldn’t help, but you made me take a closer look at how things go together, and I think I can slide the BOTTOM keeper up and add one more hole.

Don’t know that it would be enough, but it’s worth a shot. I also think maybe I answered my question about wondering if it would be cheaper to buy new cheekpieces. These guys are hooked together by a strap that buckles into the crownpiece.

I need to spend more time looking at driving tack.

Too bad The Hot Time is upon us, and there will be no more shows until the fall.

Well, duh. I do something similar with my long lines & longeing caveson. I salvaged the buckle & straps from an aged-out helmet, put both parts of the buckle on a single strap, and I have a nice little lightweight, easy-to-use lines keeper. Never thought about doing it with the driving reins. Thanks!

#18

can you mix synthetic & leather pieces in a bridle?

Chimacum sells what I would need to replace on my bridle for $60 - which I’m guessing would be less than it would cost me to get someone to adjust the existing cheek-pieces.

http://www.comfyfitharness.com/

But it’s synthetic. Other than aesthetics, is there any reason not to mix materials? You know, like when you put certain metals together (aluminum & steel?) you have problems?

#19

Shouldn’t be an issue mixing materials for this level of the training process. Fit and function is more important than looks right now. By the time you get to deciding you want to show (if ever) you can choose to go one way or the other.

Draft drivers often do not use cavesons, but if you decide to do American Driving Society driving, you will need one (by the rules). Many bridles have just a noseband that fits onto the cheek pieces. Some like them because they can help keep the cheek pieces in against the side of the head too.

Others prefer a separate caveson on it’s own hanger. You just run the strap that goes over the head through the browband. This is what we have but we decided it seemed to pinch on top of the head so we made a slot in the crown on either side and run the caveson on top of the crown (we don’t show). For now, you can just use a riding caveson if you have one that fits or can get one more cheaply than driving equipment

He really is a stinking cute pony

#20

DNJ-2 speaking
OK I admit - I still like leather (though I do see some advantages to beta)

One thing I have found is that you have to be careful with the width of straps - I bought a beta crown and it would not buckle into my leather bridle buckles of the same width

It might be worth a call to Sandra (i think thats her name) at Iowa Valley
http://www.iowavalleycarriage.com/catalog/39

or Big Black Horse
www.bigblackhorse.com

or we use Becky Zimmerman in Ephrata PA
717-354-5667

attach your bridle together and make sure the blinkers are at the correct position over the eye
then measure the cheek
a)total length buckled with bit
b) length above the blinker to top buckle
c) width of strap & buckles
d) size of blinker

you can call these people and ask what a new leather cheek with blinker would cost

the price of a full bridle is one of the more expensive parts of the harness

good luck

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