Well, it seems like you guys are doing just fine without me…and I’m learning alot as well.
Gindarkh & I have had a number of spirited discussions about the breed, and, although we disagree about many things, I think I can safely say we DO agree that the Russian management of the breed (currently at least) is not leading the breed in a great direction.
As G. has mentioned, it seems there is more emphasis on “type” than performance (other than flat racing). It goes without saying that generations of this has (IMHO) weakened the breed, certainly in the area of endurance.
Also, because the so-called “mother” studbook is controlled, not only by the Russians but by ONE single person, many horses of quality from other countries are excluded (like all the ones from Iran for instance). ALL the horses who wish to be registered in the Russian studbook are evaluated & graded by this ONE person and have been for many, many years. She has the ability to include or exclude a horse and when a Teke breeder tells you a horse was the highest scoring horse in Europe (for example), keep in mind that is the opinion of one, single individual.
So, while experienced breeders & horsefolks (like G & myself) might go their own way in terms of their choices in breeding, the newbie first investigating the breed might be very impressed with this “high scoring” stuff.
Therefore there have been a number of horses brought into this country (usually from Russia) who look good on paper, but have some serious structural or mental faults.
In fact, one of the highest scoring Tekes in America fits into this category. This horse was not only widely promoted because of his high scores, but also widely used – and IMO did the breed absolutely no good and possibly did some harm.
Unlike G., I am NOT a “purist”, especially in this case. I did start out this way, but the more I investigated breeding, the history of breeding and the various breeds I have been involved with, the less of a purist I became.
Perhaps it was because my first Akhal-Teke (and the mare from which all my stock has come) was not considered a PB by the Russian registry. Although her dam (great-dam? help me out here G.) left Russia w/ PB papers, the studbook manager mentioned above felt the use of TB blood in the breed was still going on, so she purged the SB of many animals she felt might contain TB blood added after the first studbook was formed (keep in mind that TB blood added prior to this was not pentalized, so most of the modern Tekes in Russia contain TB blood – some of them a surprising amount % of it. So, while they DO carry “purebred” papers, they are not genetically “pure”).
Many of her decisions were based on little or no evidence (this was long before DNA and even before blood-typing); in the case of my mare, it was (per her statement) based on a single letter received from a single person who had worked at the stud farm over 20 yrs prior.
If that information was true, that made my mare something like 89% Teke. I think G. will back me up on this, but all of her foals (all by different stallions) certainly look like Tekes, move like Tekes and act like Tekes, so if she does contain TB blood, it certainly didn’t impact her production.
Also, I think it is extremely important to note that over 1/3 of the horses listed in the first studbook did NOT have confirmed, written pedigrees. And, while I don’t have the numbers in front of me, at least 1/3 of the horses who took part in the famous 1935 ride were not “pure” Akhal Tekes. Some were cross-bred and some were Yomuds, which is another strain of Turkomen horses. Instead, the participating animals (and riders) were pulled from Turkomen soldiers and their mounts who routinely patrolled the borders – horses & riders who were extremely fit.
It’s also very important to point out that, especially in the beginning, record-keeping was faulty to the point of being almost ridiculous. Horses who were listed as half or part breds in the first stud book miraculously became “purebreds” by Book III. Even as recently as several years ago, scores given at an inspection here in the States changed when the inspector returned to Russia. This sort of stuff is very common, so many “fact” are not actually factual.
Also people must realize these horses were not breeding or being utilized in a vacuum. During the time when the studbook was being created, or when these animals were being bred, Russia was a communist system, private-property frowned on (at least for the proletariat; for the rich folks it was ok ;)) and graft was rampant. In fact, a well-known Russian breeder who is now in the States laughingly told a friend of mine that for the right amt of $$, he could make sure any horse could be a “purebred.” And I have no doubt he was telling the truth.
All of this in extremely important information, because you cannot accurately look at the history of ANY breed without looking at the political and social environment in which they were created. Man is doing the creating, and man must do what it takes to survive in his enviroment. This sort of political and historical stuff, while perhaps rather boring, is key to understanding the accuracy of information on any breed and why some horses were used and others weren’t.
Now, because of my involvement with Tekes and with WBs, my opinion on breeding has changed over the years. The WB is a shining example of a “purpose-bred” animal and clearly illustrates the success of this method, coupled with rigorous testing and culling.
Over the years, my involvement with TBs & Arabs has clearly shown me that so-called “purity” in and of itself bring absolutely NOTHING to the table other than a verifiable pedigree. It does not bring quality, it does not bring ability, it does not even bring “type” (which is the line most breeders will give you.). It, in fact, brings nothing.
All one has to do to prove my point is examine the wide variety (in all the areas mentioned above) in such purebred breeds as Arabs & TBs. or instance, check out this horse:
[/SIZE]"]http://mandolynn.com/Stalliions-Virgule%20Al%20Maury.html
And then this one:
[URL=“http://www.rolervickarabians.com/stallions/OutOfCyte/Both”]http://www.rolervickarabians.com/stallions/OutOfCyte/Both PB Arabs. Doesn’t look like even the same breed, but less the same “type.” So much for the theory that purity sets type.
So, slowly over the years, I have change my mind about breeding and I am now firmly in the camp of “purpose-bred” breeding. After all, purpose-bred breeding is what created such amazing animals as the original Teke and Arab.
Now, folks will tell you that all of the pedigrees of these horses were committed to memory and the breeders (and users) of these two breeds put great stock in “purity.” Perhaps this was true, but I’m betting that they put far MORE stock in performance. After all, their very lives depended on it.[/SIZE]
For example: let’s say Turkoman Raider “A” swoops down on his enemies’ village and steals a horse. This horse turns out to be strong, brave, fast, hardy – top-notch stuff if you are TM warrior.
Well, first of all, do you really think they are going to NOT use this animal for breeding just because they don’t know his pedigree? Of course not! They are going to breed the snot o/o him! So how the heck are they going to determine his pedigree, much less his level of “purity?” I doubt the thief stopped on his way out to ask…:lol: Send a fax to his yurt?
No, alot of things have changed, but human nature has not. I suspect in these cases the guy either made something up or…made something up.;). Probably involving some god or miracle or some other thing that would explain the creation of this miraculous animal. But the only thing that would make him go to all this trouble in the first place would be if the horse could PERFORM – if he could excel at his job…and his job was NOT standing around looking elegant and shiny.
THIS is how the breed came forth and so many horse breeders of so many breeds have lost sight of the fact looks has little to do with how well a horse performs. And, to repeat myself, neither does “purity.”
So, if I was in charge of the Teke world :D, I would put far less emphasis on who the Russians call “pure” and far more what the horse looks likes, moves like and performs like. Also how they produce. I would incorporate stock from places like Iran and TM, although I would want pedigrees to be verified and all horses DNA’ed from the start (there is much talk that TM especially is not keeping very accurate records in terms of their breeding stock).
As far as the Teke breed today and his ability for endurance, I can’t really say. Not enough of them are out there doing it, at least in this country. The Russians (that I’ve spoken with) don’t consider “endurance” much of a sport and aren’t breeding for it.
And, yes, a number of Tekes have competed in Tevis, but only one has actually finished. It is interesting to note that this single animal (a mare) was one of the Tekes which here in America we call a ‘highbred’, meaning she falls in the same category as my mare; somewhere back there an ancestor was tossed out of the purebred studbook because of suspicion of outside (non-Teke) blood.
The purebred Teke with the highest number of AERC miles has only a pathetic 450 miles to his credit.
The Teke with the highest number of AERC miles was also a highbred - I think he had about 1100, which, again, is not a HUGE number of miles, but still better than 450. He was gelded and sold by his owner because he was not “pure.” Stupid, stupid, stupid. Oh, did I say how stupid that was?:mad
]My foundation mare only competed once – her FIRST (and only) ride was a 75 miler:rolleyes: and she placed 7th.
Her son, Kinor, has only produced one Teke offspring and he is not yet 1 yr old, but I’m hoping he will do well in sport (endurance or otherwise). Kinor also has a fair number of crosses (mostly Arabs, but also other breeds) out there, but the oldest is only coming 5 yrs old, so their careers as endurance horses have barely started. The oldest one did his first 50 last year and did well – finished in good condition in a ride where about 1/4 of the horses were pulled. This horse is o/o a breeding stock Paint mare, incidentally.
Mel Hare and Kerry Redente, both very knowledable and successful endurance riders (Kerry was AERC’s '09 National High Mileage Champion) have Kinor/Arab offspring in their barns, just waiting for them to grow up. Mel’s horse will be 3 this year, so still along way from proving himself as an endurance mount.
In fact, if you look, you will see that this is one area Tekes need to improve on – “proving” themselves a performance arena.
Phil Case, the man who brought the very first Akhal-Teke into this country (and also lives near G. and the OP), spent HUGE amounts of $$ promoting his stock and putting them in training – mostly eventing – back in the '80’s and early '90’s. One of his Tekes was even long-listed of the Olympic team in this sport under Craig Stevens. And eventing is a sport that was almost custom designed for Tekes, because almost any Teke can jump. But since then the dirth of true “performance” Tekes has been noticable and that hasn’t helped the breed either.
Currently, G. probably has more of her stock out there performing – mostly in eventing & stadium jumping – and this speaks very highly of her breeding program. I’m sure many of these horses could do well in endurance too, since I feel a horse who can do well in higher level eventing, can be a successful endurance horse as well. Maybe not a Tevis winner, but definitely good at the sport.
As for disposition – well, this is another area where G. and I argue constantly. It has been my experience, not only with my stock but also with others, that Tekes can be “difficult” to handle – but that is because they DO tend to be rather opinionated and they are a very sensitive & intelligent to boot.They are not a breed that suffers fools well. They DO bond deeply with “their” person and they tend to pick that person themselves. I could tell you numerous stories of Tekes (or even Teke crosses) I’ve bred and handled for the first year or two of their lives, then sold. YEARS later, even after they have been under the care of their new owner for ages, I would visit & was able to get them to do things their owner could not – and, while I consider myself a very capable horsewoman, I’m certainly no horsewhisperer.
And I am not alone in this opinion. Kerry Redente, who has bred her mares to Kinor 3-4 times (and who is a FAR better horsewoman than I) said just recently that “those Tekes sure are different.”
However, then there is the fabled Absent, who competed under two different riders in the Olympics, so if he started out being fussy, he certainly got over it.
But it can be (and is) an issue with many of the breed, so keep that in mind (or buy your horse from G., who swears none of her’s are like this:)).
However, I will say that once you get that bond going for you, a Teke is almost dog-like in their response and bond to their owner (again, my experience).
When Kinor was returned to me (I bred him, but he was sold as a weanling), he came back as a very ill-mannered 20 month old stallion who had already pasture-bred one mare :eek:. It took quite awhile before we got to that happy place between us, but the last 2 yrs of his life I could not only breed him in nothing but a rope halter (well, I wore more than that, but HE wore only a rope halter ;)). The last year of his life we had things down so well I could lead the mare into his pasture and, just through hand signals, he would wait till I had her in position and all ready to go. Then I would give him the signal and he would approach and breed her. Anyone will tell you this is NOT an easy thing to get a breeding stallion to do.
I will say that in my life time I have had extensive experience (both as a pro and currently as an ammie) with several breeds and I feel that many Tekes ARE different in their attitude and disposition.
Well, I’ve offered about as much as I can to this discussion. Between other commitment and computer/connection issues, I will respectfully bow out and leave you in the capable hands of G., who knows far more about the state of breed than I, although my opinions are usually more correct. 
BTW, here is a great example of an Arab/Teke cross very well suited for endurance. He was rather tense that day, since he hadn’t been off the farm since he was a foal, but you can see how the Teke will improve the gaits (at least imho)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hy9uu4Mos
