Am I crazy? Considering swapping back to older Passier after riding in Voltaire for 3 years

[kt]

So this is going to be long—sorry.

When I was a teen (late 90s), by some happy accident I ended up with a used Passier GT. Essentially a close contact dressage saddle that allowed me to find my own balance. After I sold my mare, I ended up riding different horses all the time and with a cutback and medium tree, it seemed to fit basically everything. I loved it.

I took a break from riding for about 10 years due to health reasons but when I started up again, sitting in that saddle was still like coming home, every time. I began riding my friend’s super sensitive older OTTB mare. She could move well in it, but due to some health issues of her own, she struggled with falling into the right and I also tended to lean to the right, and we fed off each other. Still, my overall leg position was mostly strong in the saddle, with my leg quiet and solid at the girth. One night my friend and I took a closer look at my saddle and realized the tree was warped off center. I was devastated, realizing the tree was likely broken and who knows for how long (at this point, the saddle was quite old) and what it had been doing to the mare and any other horses it had affected.

My friend was having her Voltaire rep coming to the barn the next week, so she asked him to bring me a few options to try. He first looked at the Passier and confirmed it was broken and said it could have happened for a number of reasons. He put a super nice Voltaire Adelaide on the mare and it seemed to fit her well. I got on and she seemed to move so much better in it, lifting her back and tracking up better. The saddle was comfortable but much deeper and a way different feel for me. When I saw a video of me riding in it that night, I didn’t like how my leg was swinging, but I chalked it up to needing to adjust to the saddle and raise my stirrups.

So I bought the Voltaire. That’s been nearly three years ago. I’ve been mostly ok with my position in it. The mare has gone through some ups and downs, health-wise, so it’s been hard to track exactly how she has progressed, but I’d say she moves decently well and is comfortable in this saddle. I think the problem comes in when I’m unbalanced and she reacts to it. Although I’m 42, I have multiple chronic health issues, and over the last four months (give or take), I’ve noticed myself becoming physically weaker. I crosstrain every single day, but I’m still losing muscle and everything is harder—finding the balance, staying with her, knowing where my body is, etc.(I should add that other types of exercise is also harder). Watching videos of myself is incredibly distressing, as I have clearly regressed in my riding over the last couple of years, and even since the spring. My biggest issue (I think) is that I struggle to keep my leg underneath me so I tend to end up in a chair seat, balancing on the reins.

Then last week, I happened to listen to the latest Noelle Floyd podcast with Amanda Anderson of Saddlefitting.US. I know Amanda can be controversial—a few of the things she said got under my skin—but her stance on large thigh blocks and how bad they are for rider balance and horse freedom of movement really has stuck with me. Whether she can be a bit extremist in her views or not, there is some truth in what she says. I went out and rode yesterday and I thought, you know, I really am fighting the balance of this saddle and I think it’s this stupid thigh block. And it honestly made me wonder if I should seek out another older Passier in good condition (since that’s what I know best) and see if it makes a difference.

I do not have competition aspirations. I don’t even take lessons—my friend and I are eyes on the ground for each other. My funds are limited. I just want to ride this mare to the best of my ability and ensure she feels good. And while I know Voltaires are very nice saddles, I’m not sure if it’s helping or hurting—and if something like my old Passier GT could allow me to stop fighting the saddle. I guess my concern is that I’m going to get in something with little to no knee rolls and be floundering and unable to find any balance. I think given my health situation, it might be very difficult to say.

Open to input and any words of wisdom. Please just be kind.

[Paisley_Pony]

The older I get (I’m eight years older than you), the less muscle strength I have, and the more important I’m finding it to have a saddle that I don’t have to fight. When I was younger, it was easier to make my balance right even if the saddle wasn’t ideal for me. Now, I don’t have the extra “oomph” required. Oddly enough, the best balanced saddle I own that fits my mare is also an older Passier. Mine is an all purpose style, with a PS Baum tree. The minute I sit down, it gives me that “home” feeling, and I know from my DD (who is my eyes on the ground) that my position is better in it.

[Bogie]

A saddle that puts you in balance is invaluable. While a pro can probably ride in any saddle, it’s so much easier to ride when your saddle works for you on your horse. It sounds like the Voltaire wasn’t working for you. Different saddles have different balance points and how the saddle fits your horse AND your conformation makes a huge difference.

Personally, I prefer a more open seat and no knee blocks (or small ones). There is no perfect saddle – so much of it is personal preference.

[CHT]

I am tall and thin, and I used to hate blocks…until I had a saddle made for me with the blocks in the right place, and then I understood their purpose. That said, I ended up just taking them off, as with my new horse, the blocks were right where the saddle needed to bend/shape for her shoulders, and the (knee) blocks prevented that.

I don’t think you have to go to an old saddle to find a saddle with no or removable blocks! Or you may find properly placed/fitted blocks help you. Saddle manufacturing has improved with wider channels, better trees and better padding in panels vs the older saddles, so not sure going back to an old saddle is in your best interest.

[pony_baloney]

I’d say go get an old Passier. Mine was just over $300 on ebay (Baum tree, easily adjustable according to my fitter). For many years I fought my previous saddle; the Passier felt perfect from the start. I ride a pony and have a tendency to tip forward, which puts him on his forehand. Once he’s warmed up and I’m balanced, my body just melts onto the saddle and it feels amazing and effortless. Of course an older saddle may need reflocking and tweaked to fit the mare but it’s well made and will last forever.

[exvet]

I ended up buying back an older Passier GG to use on one of my younger horses. I loved it when I owned it and used it on a horse it fit years back and fell in love again when I bought it back. Unfortunately, my horse ended up outgrowing the Passier which I knew he would but that saddle always gave me a place to sit and nothing seemed to rock my world no matter what spook or ‘surprise’ might have occurred. I’m 59…so, I’m not sure what ‘that’ says but I have always gravitated towards less is more and the saddle must fit both horse and rider. Passier is still a brand I wouldn’t hesitate to buy.

[Bonnie2]

I also rode a Passier for decades. It fit so many horses and me. Ride what you and your horse are comfortable with. The rest is just fashion.

[ThreeFigs]

I’ve become a fan of the older saddles, too. Rode in Counties for years, but my first good saddle was a Passier all-purpose, and have had several other since.

Currently riding in a custom built La Belle saddle that rides very much like my old Passier. It sits me with ease in balance with my horse and while the seat is rock hard – I’m comfortable in it. Minimal blocks, much like my old Passier saddles.

I will not go back to the Counties. I’d buy another old Passier or another LaBelle if I need another saddle in the future.

[kt]

Thank you all for the insight, thoughtful replies and support. It’s good to know I’m not alone in this line of thinking.

@CHT you for sure bring up an interesting point-- I would definitely prefer not to go back to an old saddle that has a lot of mileage already on it. I would love to find a minimal Passier (or something very similar) that has a lot of life still in it and/or is the best of both the old/new worlds, like you said. I’ve looked at the current Passier models but can’t really tell what would compare to those older close contact types. For other brands, the Stubben Genesis Special D has come up in my research, but it looks like that one has literally no knee roll at all (?).

Thanks again all.

[outerbanks77]

There was a long thread on blocks, possibly instigated by the same fitter (I don’t follow this stuff very closely). I think poorly fitted blocks are worse than no blocks at all. But if they are appropriate for your conformation and the horse you are riding, they can be quite nice. I have one saddle with larger external thigh blocks, and one with quite discreet, small soft external thigh blocks and also an AP with knee rolls under the flap. I would not say that my balance is significantly different in any of these saddles as influenced by the blocks/rolls. I have really long femurs so I can empathize with longer, straighter blocks being a big problem, and I cannot ride in a saddle like that. The balance of the saddle on the horse, and placement of the stirrup bars is also critical. So no, you are not crazy to move on from your Voltaire of the blocks are truly causing a problem, but it might be that the blocks are wrong, or there is another aspect of how the saddle sits on you or the horse.

With the older saddles, make sure the spin clearance is adequate, and have the flocking replaced if it is packed down or lumpy.

[kt]

I will search for that thread, thank you!

I am very petite (5’0, 106lbs) but also have a really long femur. I feel like the thigh block on the Voltaire is quite long and is very large. When I bought the saddle, I really had no idea the impact that would have. And if the mare hadn’t gone so well in it, I wouldn’t have scooped it up. But I think she felt so much better because the poor thing had been going around in a saddle with a broken tree for who knows how long. I think I was able to make it work ok for awhile, but because I’ve been losing muscle/strength (for whatever reason-- waiting to get in to see neuromuscular), I’m not strong enough to fight where the saddle has me anymore.

I will say that my old Passier did have pencil rolls, which I felt like were perfect-- so I am not opposed to some sort of roll/block, as long as they fit me and the saddle fits the horse, like you said.

[outerbanks77]

You might like a Black Country Vinici, or another BC model. My saddle with the smaller blocks is a Vinici. I bought a used one with their standard flap and long block, but couldn’t keep my knee behind the block, so I had one custom made with a forward flap and the block tapering to end right above my knee. It’s a very close contact feel and the blocks aren’t very noticeable at all.

I think these pics show how the blocks fit - the Vinici is on the right and the saddle on the left is a Patrick Leggero which is a deeper seat and larger, firmer block, which I’ve come to appreciate with my larger, bigger-moving horse. I wish it was easier to find saddles with short blocks and forward flaps. I found the Patrick used last year and it was very much a needle in a haystack! It seems like when the blocks go down past the knee it’s easy to end up bracing against them and ending up with your seat back towards the cantle. I rode a friend’s horse in an N2 with huge long blocks and really struggled with that.

[kt]

Lovely! Thank you for the visual and the recommendation!

[Heinz_57]

Have you ridden in any of your friends’ saddles? IF that’s possible for you, I’d suggest riding in as many other saddles as you can (on their horses preferably - obviously you don’t want to be putting ill fitting saddles on your horse just to see what the ride feels like) to feel some different configurations. With the physical changes in yourself that you mention, I’m afraid you might end up disappointed chasing after ‘that old feeling’ by getting an old Passier. I know the feeling - I am also not currently as good as I once was and saddles didn’t really seem to matter when I was at the height of my game. Now, I have an odd shaped pony and he has his own custom saddle, which I like very much.

Even just going to a tack shop and sitting in the saddles on the plastic horse might give you a feel for what configurations do and don’t work for you.

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

I don’t think you’re crazy - I’ve ridden in many different saddles over the years, and all had their good and bad qualities. Some I would ride again in a heartbeat, like my old Markus Krehan with the huge thigh blocks - fit me beautifully and my horse went quite well in it. Sure, the seat was hard as a rock, but it was so balanced, it never mattered. OTOH, I rode a Hennig that I hated, and don’t even get me started on Thornhill saddles. Everyone else loved them, but I hated everything about them. Saddles are a unique thing to each of us!

I rode a Passier Grand Gilbert (at the time it was newer, probably about 2008 or so) that was, IIRC, more minimalist than the saddles everyone else was riding at the time, and my horse went wonderfully in it. You might not necessarily have to go to a 40 year old Passier; you might find one newer that is more minimalist than the Voltaire. It definitely needs to fit YOU, and if you’re fighting the Voltaire, then it doesn’t fit you at all. I imagine your mare would go well in another Passier, as long as it fits her.

[AltersAreUs]

@kt

I would definitely prefer not to go back to an old saddle that has a lot of mileage already on it. I would love to find a minimal Passier (or something very similar) that has a lot of life still in it and/or is the best of both the old/new worlds, like you said.

Well, you can find nice looking Passier Grand Gilberts in my area for between $800 - $1000. Pelham Saddlery currently has two.

[kt]

@Heinz_57

Have you ridden in any of your friends’ saddles? IF that’s possible for you, I’d suggest riding in as many other saddles as you can (on their horses preferably - obviously you don’t want to be putting ill fitting saddles on your horse just to see what the ride feels like) to feel some different configurations. With the physical changes in yourself that you mention, I’m afraid you might end up disappointed chasing after ‘that old feeling’ by getting an old Passier. I know the feeling - I am also not currently as good as I once was and saddles didn’t really seem to matter when I was at the height of my game. Now, I have an odd shaped pony and he has his own custom saddle, which I like very much.

Even just going to a tack shop and sitting in the saddles on the plastic horse might give you a feel for what configurations do and don’t work for you.

So, it’s been a really long time ago, but I’ve sat in my friend’s Antares before. I was also thinking it would be good to do a test ride in that (she owns the mare and the saddle fits her, so I think it’d be fine to ride her in that). It is unfortunately a tiny barn and we’re the only dressage riders, so I don’t have much access to anything else to try. We are just a couple hours from Lexington, KY and Columbus, OH though, so we could maybe take a daytrip sometime to some tack shops or even wait until April for Landrover (would love to resolve this sooner though if possible!).

Edited to add: your concern about me chasing that old feeling is my exact concern as well! I went out and rode this afternoon and honestly was so frustrated with my overall weakness and high heart rate (one of my health issues is inappropriate sinus tachycardia, which I take meds for) that I just halted and cried. My sweet mare knows when I get like this to just wait it out with me until I can get my crap together and try again. And we got it together, eventually.

I will not give up. I love this too much. I just want to do whatever I can to help my body help her… whether that means a different saddle or not.

[Ambitious_Kate]

I grew up riding flat saddles, Barnsbys, and when I started dressage and got a new horse, I found an old passier baum that looked to me just perfect. A bit cut back pommel, really beautiful leather, and none of that padding. Well made. 250 bucks. Probably a medium size, and the stamp said and 18 inch seat which measured 17.5, or maybe vice versa. My horse was an out of shape 9yo oldenburg with a very TB physique and high wither, and it really was great for me, until he really got strong, and started building a top line and he out grew it. He’s now a wide in tree size, surprisingly, because of all the muscle he has built. I have kept the passier, thinking if I ever have a horse again, I would love to see if it fit the horse, because it soe wonderfully fit me. So comfy. I can’t imagine anyone ever wanting it, though. Nice to see this thread where someon is talking about just how nice the old passiers really are.

[Dressurfrau]

I am a Passier fan. I love the freedom in the saddles that are lean on the blocking. I have a PSL that fits almost anything and love that saddle. Plan to have one custom made for my youngster as well.

[Guyot]

If you feel the block just passively sitting on your horse, it’s the wrong shape or size or position for you. A block is there for when things go wrong and to support an already good position.

As mentioned up thread… most are too long or straight unless you are super supple.

While I can ride in saddles with no block or with blocks I personally like a short angled block with a forward flap. That’s what works for my body and balance… a stubben is also wonderful and perfect for my body, but surviving flying change hell and baby horse moments I prefer a well placed block.

But most of my clients have different needs and I end up riding their horses in saddles with blocks all over the place that I have to work around. This does make my world very hard sometimes but that’s my job.

If your fighting your saddle find a saddle with a Velcro block to try and sit in it without the block… then place that block along the middle of your tigh with your knee clear and you shouldn’t feel it until your moving a bit and then it should not be in constant contact with your leg. Best of luck.