Am I missing something? See lots of photos of horses BTV

[mydogs]

While scrolling through Facebook groups & my newsfeed, I’ve started to notice a number of professional riders posting photos where the horse is behind the vertical and their poll is not the highest point of the neck. To give some merit to the photos, these are either their actual profile picture or sales photos/videos. Photos that I would assume people are proud of.

I actually watched a professional rider training a client’s horse purposely going around with the horse BTV several times this month. Since this wasn’t my trainer, I didn’t want to bother them with my question as I felt it might be rude to ask them. I also saw a video of a rider at WEG riding with their horse’s nose BTV.

Am I missing something where this is okay? Does it benefit the horse & if so, how? Has this become acceptable? Is there a purpose for doing this for a few strides while schooling?

I always thought a horse wasn’t supposed to be ridden that way, that the horse may be avoiding contact and various other reasons that it was wrong.
These horses aren’t being ridden in rollkur and I’ve watched several videos where as the horse moves along in their stride their head bobs up & down, so the horse may be behind the vertical in one stride but not the other. If I had to put a number on it, I would say the horse’s at a 15 degree angle behind the vertical line or maybe 3" behind the line. Again, just guessing. The horse’s don’t have their nose to their chest but they aren’t really that close to the vertical either.

Noting, I’m not bashing anyone. I’m generally curious, hoping to learn, and maybe not be as confused after reading things explained. My horse went BTV as an invasion when he was out of shape & it took months to build up the strength and tons of learning on my end so he went around correctly, so I totally get that horses aren’t 100% perfect.

[WildLittleWren]

I never ride BTV. Engine (motor), using the hind end properly first, moving freely forward with rhythm and tempo, then the proper head carriage usually develops (unless there is a physical issue that crops up that must be addressed).

There is a local “horse trainer” in my area who touts she has shown through Fourth Level. All of her horses she has in training she constantly posts videos and photos of the horse with their head crammed towards their chest and their hind end trailing out behind, or moving stiff and short behind. She has quite a few people bamboozled into her “greatness”. I cringe everytime I see it. Not sure if what you are seeing is as severe as this, and is much different than a horse that got slightly BTV for a moment in time. But still, it wouldn’t be a photo or video I would promote my business or sale horse with.

[SnicklefritzG]

I see a lot of trainers doing the same - posting photos where the horse is behind the vertical to quite a degree, and often at a show. I’ve seen this even with people showing all the way to GP. I get the impression that being behind the vertical isn’t being penalized nearly as much as it was in the long ago past.

[mydogs]

@SnicklefritzG

I see a lot of trainers doing the same - posting photos where the horse is behind the vertical to quite a degree, and often at a show. I’ve seen this even with people showing all the way to GP. I get the impression that being behind the vertical isn’t being penalized nearly as much as it was in the long ago past.

That is what I believe as well. I can’t remember where I was, but I recall someone saying that years ago they would have been had bad scores for a movement if their horse was behind the vertical.

[Rerider54]

As someone who took 30 years off, I was very surprised to see lots of BTV. I am also horrified at the whole rollkur and blue tongue thing. However, my instructor has said that you should be able to ‘place’ your horses head anywhere you want, but we don’t want BTV or low poll as a rule. I have also had issues with my horse not having enough muscle to carry herself in a frame’ for long periods of time so we do lots of stretchy walk and trot. My instructor especially doesn’t want my horse to get BTV as an evasion, my horse did it for awhile into halt.

I have never had the nerve to ask any other trainers why their horses are curling under. Judges I have scribed for don’t seem to mind if the horse is going forward and through and the BTV is just a stride or two. They seem to take fewer points for that then for above the bit and hollow. Maybe that is part of the answer. If you get better scores for overly curled horses then for hollow it is worth something.

[mydogs]

@WildLittleWren

Not sure if what you are seeing is as severe as this, and is much different than a horse that got slightly BTV for a moment in time. But still, it wouldn’t be a photo or video I would promote my business or sale horse with.

I don’t think what I am seeing as bad, but just enough for me to question why a trainer would use it to promote their business. I get that it happens at times, but wouldn’t a trainer want to use a different photo instead? Which is why I’m confused on whether or not there is a reason more trainers seem to be okay with horses going BTV.

[netg]

I mean, I’ve used photos of my horse BTV of which I was proud. I pull too much, and she is more sensitive at shows, so she can end up BTV because of my flaws. I’m still working to avoid doing that, and would not be offended by a judge dinging me hard for it! But in the realm of reality, my being a crappy amateur working to improve, we still have some moments which are huge improvements from where we were with her BTV.

That said, I think a lot of it is due to judging. BTV is rarely penalized anymore, unless REALLY bad. But steadiness and lack of ever coming ABOVE the vertical is rewarded strongly. And so, eyes have adjusted to thinking BTV is ok and correct in many cases. Lack of emphasis on the hind legs for quite some time (which has improved lately from my experience) also caused this.

[cnm161]

@netg

That said, I think a lot of it is due to judging. BTV is rarely penalized anymore, unless REALLY bad. But steadiness and lack of ever coming ABOVE the vertical is rewarded strongly. And so, eyes have adjusted to thinking BTV is ok and correct in many cases. Lack of emphasis on the hind legs for quite some time (which has improved lately from my experience) also caused this.

What? When did this happen? I’ve gotten pummeled for BTV as recently as 2 yrs ago with my curling-prone mare. Did I just get a bad roll of the judging dice? Are my mare and I now going to be superstars when we show again? THE PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW.

[SnicklefritzG]

There is a wonderful video of Klimke schooling Ahlerich at home and that horse is on the vertical, not in front of it and not behind it. I don’t see many people riding like that consistently.

Edited to add: here is the video I was referring to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBq5rJM4XvI

@netg

I mean, I’ve used photos of my horse BTV of which I was proud. I pull too much, and she is more sensitive at shows, so she can end up BTV because of my flaws. I’m still working to avoid doing that, and would not be offended by a judge dinging me hard for it! But in the realm of reality, my being a crappy amateur working to improve, we still have some moments which are huge improvements from where we were with her BTV.

That said, I think a lot of it is due to judging. BTV is rarely penalized anymore, unless REALLY bad. But steadiness and lack of ever coming ABOVE the vertical is rewarded strongly. And so, eyes have adjusted to thinking BTV is ok and correct in many cases. Lack of emphasis on the hind legs for quite some time (which has improved lately from my experience) also caused this.

[mydogs]

@netg

I mean, I’ve used photos of my horse BTV of which I was proud. I pull too much, and she is more sensitive at shows, so she can end up BTV because of my flaws. I’m still working to avoid doing that, and would not be offended by a judge dinging me hard for it! But in the realm of reality, my being a crappy amateur working to improve, we still have some moments which are huge improvements from where we were with her BTV.

Oh, same here. I know my horse does it due to my abilities and his physical strength. But, I don’t ride around like that on purpose. When my horse goes BTV my first thought is that I need to fix something because I lost it.

I am seeing professionals ride this way in what I assume to be on purpose based on context clues of the situation and the frequency. If I see a trainer who posts pictures of 5+ horses who all go BTV, I’m going to assume the common cause of this is the trainer’s doing. But, why? Why does a professional do it? They HAVE to have some “logical” reason why they do it, right?

[netg]

@cnm161

What? When did this happen? I’ve gotten pummeled for BTV as recently as 2 yrs ago with my curling-prone mare. Did I just get a bad roll of the judging dice? Are my mare and I now going to be superstars when we show again? THE PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW.

There’s an occasional pummeling, but most of the time, especially if it’s a nice moving horse already, even if it’s noted, scores will still be high. It used to be that was an automatic 4.

When I was scribing for an L candidate, there was a horse the candidates asked their training judge about who had impressive first level trot lengthenings while behind the vertical. The judge said “well, since he’s behind the vertical I guess you can’t give him a 10…” Meaning she would have given it a 9, reduced from the 10 he otherwise would have earned. From my perspective, his trailing hind legs meant he should have gotten lower than a 6 no matter how dramatic the front was, but I’m not a judge.

[alibi_18]

I don’t know but from what I witnessed and from scribing, BTV is not rewarded, quite the contrary.
You don’t get 8 or 9 for a horse who is btv for more than a few strides.

But judges prefer giving positive comments on what is good in each movement or what needs improvement.

More engagement, more uphill, more open in throat latch, more under, more balance…

But still, I wrote a lot of : unhappy in the mouth, open mouth, BTV, unsteady contact.
and at the lower levels; rider needs independent aids,

Also, to me, a horse above the bit and hollow is a bigger problem than being behind the vertical.

[mydogs]

@alibi_18

Also, to me, a horse above the bit and hollow is a bigger problem than being behind the vertical.

Can you explain why?

[emipou]

I’m telling you, the place where I am riding now uses a pretty solid classical foundation. I just spent the weekend auditing my trainer’s rides at a big name classical instructor clinic. We are up and open and encourage reaching into the contact at all times.
That all said, we have mostly Andalusians and sometimes these horses (some horse somewhere just snorted offensively at being called “these horses”) go into a more collected frame than desired. With all this beautiful up and open riding, there are still moments in time that do not always look perfect. granted, we try not to share those moments in time…

That’s my personal experience. We do our best to be correct and true to the horse.

Short and simple answer (the answer we all already know) - judges reward bad riding. It’s really that simple.

[alibi_18]

@netg

There’s an occasional pummeling, but most of the time, especially if it’s a nice moving horse already, even if it’s noted, scores will still be high. It used to be that was an automatic 4.

When I was scribing for an L candidate, there was a horse the candidates asked their training judge about who had impressive first level trot lengthenings while behind the vertical. The judge said “well, since he’s behind the vertical I guess you can’t give him a 10…” Meaning she would have given it a 9, reduced from the 10 he otherwise would have earned. From my perspective, his trailing hind legs meant he should have gotten lower than a 6 no matter how dramatic the front was, but I’m not a judge.

It was First level and lengthening.

And it surely wasn’t just about the lengthening but the transitions from and to working trot and the corners. Overall quality expected at First level, taking into consideration the strength, the balance and throughness.

1-1

To confirm that the horse demonstrates correct basics, and in addition to the requirements of Training Level, has developed the thrust to achieve improved balance and throughness and maintains a more consistent contact with the bit.

Meaning that it can go momentarily btv.
But it will be scored lower as riders move up the level.

Moderate lengthening of frame and stride; regularity and quality of trot; straightness; consistent tempo; willing, clear transitions

If all the rest was there but the lenghtening of frame, should the score really be 4?

If the lengthening of stride is exceeding the requirement, if the transitions were fluids, the trot quality was flawless with a consistent tempo (no change between working and lengthen), the diagonal and the horse were straight, the horse willing…
You would give it a 4 because its head was btv, really? What would be a 6 in your eye? a 9?

[netg]

@alibi_18

It was First level and lengthening.

And it surely wasn’t just about the lengthening but the transitions from and to working trot and the corners. Overall quality expected at First level, taking into consideration the strength, the balance and throughness.

1-1

Meaning that it can go momentarily btv.
But it will be scored lower as riders move up the level.

If all the rest was there but the lenghtening of frame, should the score really be 4?

If the lengthening of stride is exceeding the requirement, if the transitions were fluids, the trot quality was flawless with a consistent tempo (no change between working and lengthen), the diagonal and the horse were straight, the horse willing…
You would give it a 4 because its head was btv, really? What would be a 6 in your eye? a 9?

No, 4 used to be the standard every time a horse went behind the vertical, from what I’ve heard.

I don’t agree with that.

However, I also disagree with a horse who is well behind the vertical being able to get a 9, either, especially when it has the corresponding trailing hind legs. I find BTV to be a bigger issue than too far in front of the vertical (which is the equivalent, not extreme hollow) because BTV restricts the hind legs and prevents the development a horse in front of the vertical can have. I don’t personally think either should result in a 4 for a movement, and think that was too strict on the matter - but do think that consistently behind the vertical should be punished more harshly than consistently tending toward too long in the neck and too open in the throatlatch.

But I’m a lowly crappy amateur with horses who are slowly and happily progressing up the levels. I have no influence on anything but my own life, and I’m cool with that.

[alibi_18]

@mydogs

Can you explain why?

First, I’m not talking about well connected horse who are slightly in front of the vertical.

I’m talking about horses travelling with the nose above the vertical and hollow and was responding to that comment :

If you get better scores for overly curled horses then for hollow it is worth something.

A horse above the bit is always hollow.

A horse that is hollow cannot achieve throughness.

A hollow horse is always out behind.

A hollow horse cannot reach under.

You cannot (shouldn’t) sit on a hollow horse.

There is a lot more to correct in a horse that travels above the bit and hollow.

Going behind the vertical is, as suggested by some posters here, more of a strenght issue. Once the horse learn to stretch out, use in hind more correctly it will/should be able to carry itself and unroll.

Both are fighting the contact, but to me pushing out to contact is easier than bringing back one’s that is above the bit because you can have the engine working in your favor whereas the hollow one will be out behind.

A horse that’s hollow has developped the wrong muscles and the wrong balance, it’s not just a fitness issue. They’ll need to come from a hollow back, to straight to a round back. From a big underneck, to level, to round neck. From out behind, to level, to carry more.

Just my experience.

[alibi_18]

@netg

However, I also disagree with a horse who is well behind the vertical being able to get a 9, either, especially when it has the corresponding trailing hind legs.

But it’s First level, the « accept more weight on hindlegs (collection) » that will prevents the trailing is only expected at 2d level.
So some trailing is expected in a simple lengthening.
It’s a strength issue too, which is normal in a First level horse. If the horse would be carrying more weight, it would have done a Medium or extended trot.

So to me, maybe not a 9 either, but surely a 8/8.5 assuming that it was the only faulty things.

Remember that marks could also be lowered in the collective marks. So points could be deducted for the improper riding or submission or harmony.

[mvp]

@netg

That said, I think a lot of it is due to judging. BTV is rarely penalized anymore, unless REALLY bad. But steadiness and lack of ever coming ABOVE the vertical is rewarded strongly. And so, eyes have adjusted to thinking BTV is ok and correct in many cases. Lack of emphasis on the hind legs for quite some time (which has improved lately from my experience) also caused this.

That’s right, I think.

My own mare has given me an education about this. And I have asked pros about it. And I think moments of BTV come with the strength training to the core that’s required of dressage horses.

From my own mare:

She is weak in the base of the neck. She’s a half-Arabian and I think those Ay-rabs are built to have trouble telescoping up and out from the base of the neck. I’m a competent rider, so I can put a horse’s head wherever I want until… they run out of strength in the pectorals and base of the neck to keep lifting where they should: the front of the carcass and just ahead of the withers. At this point, say, after a canter that required more-than-usual lifting from her, she’ll go behind the vertical a tad. If I can’t put her chin back out there and open the throat latch, I ask for a lower stretch in order to get that done. If she still can’t do that, we walk. IMO, there is no point in going faster in the wrong posture. And a horse ducking behind the vertical is choosing a way to keep moving (while not falling on his nose) when he can’t or won’t use his core and the base of his neck.

From pros (when I did have the balls to ask a well-regarded west coast young horse trainer): The BTV will go away as they get stronger. I believe her, but I take that with a grain of salt. IMHO (and I’m pretty new to dressage so I’m quite unqualified)-- the emphasis on consistent, pushing contact with the bridle can cause riders to take that feel at all costs. At worst, it is a “backward ride” with the rider pulling (and perhaps driving) to create those pounds of pressure in the hand. A more usual combination from a more skilled or educated rider is to ride the horse past the point where he runs out of core (like my mare after a canter) and keep going. No, the rider isn’t pulling, but the horse also isn’t using the right muscles, either.

So if folks have momentary bits of BTV (as this young-horse pro said would go away) I think that’s an OK part of the training process. But if you get use to looking at snap shots of that and don’t stay vigilant about keeping an open throatlatch, I think you are treading on thin ice.

And so to my motto: Base of the neck and open throat latch at all costs!

[Manni01]

My personal view… I don’t really worry whether a horse is BTV or not… I worry more about my horses back. I want the horse to move forward from behind and to react to my legs. And my personal experience is, if that happens the horse is usually not BTV. So if a horse is constantly BTV its probably not in front of the legs…