Then someone else wrote: “can you explain why?”
Getting in on this game of Bad, I’ll see your “above the bit and hollow” and raise you a “BTV and also hollow, plus hind legs trailing.”
Now that’s bad. That’s a created habit and, IMO, it’s hard to fix. Furthermore, the horse who has it usually doesn’t get into the hands of a rider educated and skilled enough to fix it. I have seen it in some sold-several-times-to-students schoolmasters.
But you can be BTV and round and underneath whereas it is not possible while hollow.
Now that’s bad. That’s a created habit and, IMO, it’s hard to fix. Furthermore, the horse who has it usually doesn’t get into the hands of a rider educated and skilled enough to fix it. I have seen it in some sold-several-times-to-students schoolmasters.
Well, indeed it’s bad and bad habits are hard to fix because it involves the muscling and way of going.
I agree with you that hollow is a problem… I do not agree that it is a created habit. It happens if the horse is not moving from behind over the back. If the rider rides the horse from behind over the back the horse will stop doing it. I would agree if you would say its a created habit of the rider…
IMO, you can perhaps be round and underneath and BTV if you are a baroque breed horse. In fact, it’s easy for them. But! Collection isn’t everything. What happens when you need lengthening as in Go Right Now? Then, I think you’ll discover that this horse wasn’t ahead of your leg and, therefore, wasn’t really transmitting power all the way from his hind hooves up to the bit.
I also think the BTV and hollow is hard to fix because the horse has been taught a particular relationship with the bit. That is to say, once you have taught a horse to duck behind pressure… what’s your plan for reversing that and getting him to go up to the bit… all with reins such that you can only pull and not push?
The answer to how to “push” a horse’s head out is feel and timing with your hands, but also making sure the horse is really ahead of your leg and going forward. But, again, it takes a pretty skilled rider to make this revision to a horse’s learned relationship with the bit.
Huh.
Interesting viewpoint.
I don’t think behind the vertical is penalized as much as it should be and as a result you see far too much of it in the show ring and even more in training.
Some of the comments make it sound like that a horse is either behind, on the vertical, or above the bit and strung out. A horse can be on the aids and in front of the vertical, just because the face isn’t perpendicular to the ground does not mean that the back is hollow. The rules do say at or slightly in front of the vertical. And remember, it is about the activity in the haunches and engagement, not about the head!
Anatomically speaking, the horse can be on the vertical only through an absence of tension (assuming the rider isn’t forcing the head position). When on the vertical the neck is shaped and the skull is hanging softly off the end of the last vertebra. In order for the nose to poke out muscles on the top of the neck will contract, in order to duck behind muscles under the neck contract (which is exactly what we don’t want). Some horses with thick throatlatches may not be able to be on the vertical with an elevated neck without compromising their breathing.
If I were promoting my own business I would avoid posting pictures of horses behind the vertical and probably avoid showing horses going that way unless it was a “before and after” video showing a chronic curler learning how to properly accept the contact.
A horse with there nose slightly in front of the vertical may not be hollow and can be going very correctly… I don’t think anybody here is talking about way in front of the vertical
Ingred Klimke
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=…39121330340071
For this look at the picture of the chesnut and the statue near the bottom of the page.
Reiner Klimke
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=…39121330340071
Both horse are correctly moving through the back and balanced, both are slightly in front of the vertical.
A horse consistently behind the vertical IMO will have more trouble working correctly and really stepping under and shifting their weight back. This is especially true at the lower levels with young undeveloped horses.
But it is known that a lot of top riders have their horses btv in the warmup ring (and in the ring) So it is done and technically « fixed » for the show ring.
So not just the baroque horses.
Lengthening is still possible as stated in the OP’s post. The First level horse did lengthen its stride despite being BTV.
The hollow horse will merely be running and rushing and you can forget about smooth transitions.
also think the BTV and hollow is hard to fix because the horse has been taught a particular relationship with the bit. That is to say, once you have taught a horse to duck behind pressure… what’s your plan for reversing that and getting him to go up to the bit… all with reins such that you can only pull and not push?
The answer to how to “push” a horse’s head out is feel and timing with your hands, but also making sure the horse is really ahead of your leg and going forward. But, again, it takes a pretty skilled rider to make this revision to a horse’s learned relationship with the bit.
If you look at all the Pro riders, be it Charlotte Dujardin or Reiner Klimke, their horses do go BTV at times, but they rarely have hollow horses or ride them above the bit. Baucher’s ramené outré was all about the virtue of the deepness that brought the lightness and connected the horse together. So, it’s been done.
And no one would ever ride their horse above the bit and hollow on purpose.
The OP was talking about a horse BTV who did a splendid lenghtening (for a 1rst level)
I was responding to that.
You’ll never see a splendid lenghtening from a hollow horse above the bit. It will just be running.
Also, and I will repeat it for those who don’t take the time to read posts : I’m not talking about being round and through and slightly above the bit as a result. So showing pictures and videos of the Klimke’s is pointless and doesn’t apply.
I’m trying to only address BTV and above bit/hollow as faulty ways of going. I’m not talking about rollkur either (forced).
And I will add, I’ve seen way more back, neck and hock problems from horses ridden inverted than curled.
This is, of course, non scientific. Just observations.
Thanks everyone!
I think we have nailed a portion of my post, which has provided some clarity and made me not feel like a completely crazy person.
But, I am still confused about why professionals PURPOSELY ride BTV. I’ve seen rides like this on Facebook and in person. I searched for the WEG warm up video I saw of several riders riding BTV, including some of the TOP riders in the world.
If they are doing, I want to know why. I would love to walk up to them and ask what is the theory behind it, what they think it does to the horse’s body, and how it helps the horse. If they are doing it during warm up but not during the test, why? I feel if I were to ask them, their answer wouldn’t be a lack of strength.
I would love to ask them to understand their thinking but don’t have the confidence to do so.
That was someone else who mention the lengthening 
Ah. My bad. It’s late.
IMHO… this is swinging back towards correct in terms of judging. There was a period in time where you got an auto-5 any time your horse slipped behind the vertical regardless of how correct any number of other things were in that movement. From what I’ve seen recently, judges are starting to consider it relatively equal to other serious faults - meaning an an otherwise 8 movement doesn’t auto drop to a 5, but drops to a 6 or 7 depending on how bad the BTV is, how long it lasts, and whether there are other faults going along with it (i.e. did the horse drop behind the bit, or hold tension in the back, lose engagement, etc.). If the horse locks the back, stops pushing from behind, curls up and spits the bit out - maybe we’re down to a 3.
OP: I have two horses who end up BTV at times in the ring. One is a PRE. When he’s BTV, everything else is also @#$%. He’s hiding behind the bit and chances are his back is stiff as a board. One is KWPN. He’s uber sensitive, and when I over half-halt, it’s not uncommon for him to close his neck and bring his nose BTV for a few strides in response. But, he’s still well engaged and lovely in the back and through to my hand. It’s rider error. I currently expect the 5 on the PRE for that moment, but not the KWPN.
In terms of schooling, I school my horses all over the place, not solely in a competition frame. It’s not uncommon for me to take the big sensitive guy deep for a few strides to get him better over his back. It’s not a place I would spend minutes on end, but it’s still useful at times.
I’m not gonna talk about all BNT because in everything, there is bad people. So there are certainly bad riders in this lot who just pull and crank their horse’s head in their chest.
I also believe part of the problem come from riders who try to imitate Top riders but don’t really know how or why.
Like this stupid trend of riders who salute with their arm stretched out at the height of their shoulder… Come on. No need to exagerate, the judge will see you.
It probably started as a joke when someone got marked down for not saluting… It doesn’t apply for everyone and you won’t get more point.
Theory Deep and round/low : To unlock tension at the poll, in the jaws, in the neck, at its base, at the withers, in the shoulders and in the back while keeping everything round and connected.
In the show ring, they bring this all up, well connected and are ready to perform. But any time they feel a tension, you will see aids for the neck to lower.
One should also not always ride with the same « neck frame » for a too long period of time as it creates tension be it low, high, deep or not. You should adjust and readjust and be able to move the neck/shoulders/head at will.
It should be seen as a gymnastic.
Not just a stretch at the beginning and ends, but often within the ride.
Carl Hester.
https://youtu.be/bbk7HWtQWbM
Steffen Peters
https://youtu.be/GTIyzybTYP0
Sure. Many WBs are bred with a high neck carriage and high excitability these days. That doesn’t mean they are using their backs. Some of these horses relax and stretch through the topline when they learn their head and neck doesn’t have to be up and vertical, but down and round leads to physical and mental relaxation. Teaching these horses to relax over a stretched topline sometimes gives them space to work behind the vertical temporarily. I see people denigrating BTV, but people also denigrate giraffe head or off the aids. I suggest they couldn’t ride these horses. Dressage is a long-term process for all horses, and especially for a few.
My horse goes BTV for various reasons if things aren’t properly set up (ie: lacking bend, lacking strength), all of which require me to pay more attention. So I get that it happens. It was a struggle for me to learn how to prevent my horse from going BTV.
Can you elaborate on how riding a few strides deep for your one horse will get him better over his back? I can’t visualize the horse’s anatomy and how it is all connected.
@alibi_18 So now I’m starting think there is a difference between down and deep versus having a horse’s neck up and behind the vertical.
Do I have this correct:
Now, how is it anatomically different for a horse to be stretching down with its nose in front of the vertical versus with its nose behind the vertical.
One day I’ll buy and read an equine anatomy book ha
Also, I can’t stand the out to the side salute. Looks ridiculous.
Everyone always hearkens back to R. Klimke, but the next video from the one above was this…
https://youtu.be/hCJx9hKBxdw Ingrid Klimke, and that was a fun one to watch, particularly the jump at the end. That horse is a powerhouse and I didn’t notice any BTV in that ride, and it is a more modern looking horse than Ahlerich.
May I throw in an idea? Dressage riders who are also experienced in other disciplines, such as Ingrid Klimke, think forward and allow the horse more space so it doesn’t fall BTV. Dressage riders who don’t have such experience think collection and containment of power so the horse may come BTV. I think it is particularly obvious in the canter.
Also in the extended trot. Hers was very correct with the hindquarters really coming under and real front end extension. That horse looked a little hot as well.
Unfortunately I think that is rare. I have never, as a scribe, seen a judge dock too much for BTV; especially not in individual movements… but I have seen judges dock hard for coming above the bit in every single movement. I think both are equally terrible.
My jaded two cents is that a lot of people just can’t tell the difference between a horse truly collected and using its back, and one that is just in a frame.
I know in my own ridden tests (keep in mind, I’m coming from eventer-land) I have been docked for coming above the bit, but not for being behind the vertical. But when I have ridden and kept a horse in a frame firmly, even if the horse was not on the bit and was hollow, I still was scored favorably.
It reminds me of one of my better scores (which was an IDA show: 81% at 1st level years ago) was one where I was very unhappy with it. The judge was a judge I had ridden a fair bit in front of so it wasn’t a one-off (and I also rode a different horse, below, in front of her that day too) – but I had never ridden the horse I drew before. I thought the horse was very prone to curling but was also extremely hard to get on the aids; he just tucked his neck and I really had to push for him to get in front of the bit… The entire test I felt like he was stuck behind the vertical, was very on the forehand and fell out of both canters quite roughly (but never went above the bit). He felt hollow and stiff, but was a really nice mover naturally. I got an 81%…
Meanwhile, I rode the mare I was used to riding for the school, same test, same judge. The mare could be inconsistent in the contact in upward transitions, but could really give and use her back. She wasn’t as schooled as the gelding but I felt her test was better ridden, and that she was at least accepting of the aids and on the bit… I think I got a 60% with her.
Anyway, my long soapbox speech aside, it’s really prevalent in this area, especially at the grass-roots and schooling shows - but I see it in just about every level and every class. It is not really rare anymore, I don’t think. One of my own trainers consistently rides forward but behind the vertical, and cleans up Area 1 with tests that, to me, are beautifully ridden (she is an incredibly accurate rider) but the horses are BTV. I’ve never seen a judge comment on it with her and I’ve been to several of her shows as a groom and picked up her scores many times.
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