Horses with a large crest may not be able to carry their polls as the highest point due to the crest being higher than the poll. I am not sure if that is the case with your horse, but depending on the judge it can impact the score from very little to significantly depending on if the judge recognizes it. I audited the L program recently and they discussed this issue.
If this is the case with your horse, you need to use other indicators to see if the horse is traveling correctly. These indicators can include whether the horse is on the vertical, position of the neck, is the back appropriate, is the horse out behind, etc.
I have an Azteca gelding who was gelded at 4.5 years old. He has a crest and even when going correctly, his poll is not the highest point.
My guess is that they already taught the horse to give his jaw and poll to pressure from the bit. If he did that much and didn’t also raise his withers and come through with his back, they then (believe they need to) ask for a deeper position with the neck so that the do engage the base of it. If you do this momentarily and close your leg, when you give in your hand, once you have sent the horse forward, he feels good in the bridle (and body) and his head is back up where it belongs.
At least, when I was taught my someone who was adept at riding big WBs and had spent lot of time learning this in Germany, this is what she taught me to do with most of the horses. I only ever did anything like a “deep bend” to one side at a time. I never used both hands and put the horse’s chin on his chest. When you do either version, you finally get access to the base of the neck which, IMO, was what you wanted in the first place.
It did work to a point. But! If I wanted to be more correct in terms of long-term training, I would have had to have ridden my too-soft-in-the-bridle horse forward first and ignore the quality of the contact or be quick enough to keep him from going hollow rather than using lots of hand in that deep bend and leg at the same time to insure that I’d get a good, engaged-in-his-back connection when I let go. The tough part was that if this horse slipped behind my leg, it was tempting or automatic to go back to this deep bend tool. It takes a whole lot more feel, timing and core strength from a ride to kick her behind-the-leg horse out in front of her for a sec but re-shape him before he gets hollow. So we are wont to take the easier, more guaranteed path to that over the back posture we want.
I’m not sure I’m explaining this well, but I hope I haven’t confused anyone too badly or incriminated myself too much. The bottom line, IMO, is that I think it comes from horses that are taught to give to bit pressure with the front of their neck, rather than the base from the beginning. And then a rider has dug a real hole for himself, and then just patches up the performance as he can with the deep BTV tool. And some day when the horse is strong enough and/or consistently enough ahead of the leg, it will probably go away. Or it will go away for the length of a test.
I’m a huge Klimke fan (both R & I) so will happily ride that train all day long - but I think this conversation is missing out on a fabulous resource. It’s Hubertus Schmidt who effectively said (paraphrased) that if he can’t stretch his horse out (down and out - nose in front of the vertical) at any point in his ride then he’s riding incorrectly and needs to go back to his warm up to reaffirm the softness/relaxation/connection. He’s a great example of a current dressage rider who I think is very much in touch with the concept of softness, throughness, and relaxation. Some of his horses do come behind the vertical (Imperio can show some significant moments of this) but the way he rides you can see he still is pushing for positive connection/encouraging the horse not to curl up and shut down.
Here’s a relevant article about it - it’s not specifically about stretching, but there’s a section on it and then he also discusses what happens when you lose the horse’s back.
When we refer to the poll beig the highest point it is in reference to the bony structures of the neck. It doesn’t matter if the crest is above the poll, it matters if the atlas, axis, or other vertebrate are above the poll. Some people do have a hard time seeing past the crest, but you (general) should be looking at the bones, not which bit of flesh is higher.
I’m so tired of BTV being used as the sole criterion.
If a horse spends a few mi utes behi d the vertical and a few in front, it’s really not the end of the world. If he’s a little up and braced, ride BTV for a lap and then see if letting him out gets him just right.
The same way if he’s rushing around you might halt and back up and then see if he waits for you in the trot.
Or if he’s sluggish in the canter you might handgallop a lap and then see if he isn’t a little brighter in the canter again.
Is backing up the perfect waiting trot you are wanting? No, but a brief exaggeration teaches the horse what you want. Is a handgallop your perfect canter? No, but riding FASTER than you want for a bit will help the sluggish horse perk up and go AS FAST as you want without being carried.
Of course you want the horse on your seat and collecting lightly on his own. But sometimes to get him on your seat at 7, you have to half halt from 9 to 5, and then let him fill up 7 on his own. You need to get him PAST what you want so you can let go and let him do the rest on his own.
This obsession with never once being even a milimeter BTV results in so many riders who will never use their hands or apply a meaningful halfhalt bc god forbid they pull on the rein for even a second, the sacred vertical may be broken for a moment, the old masters would not approve.
So they ride around with their hands planted for years never asking their horse to even address the contact thinking if they just do nothing long enough eventually progress will happen.
Or they just consta-hold the horse at 7, when if they would just for once put him back to 5 and tell him WAIT, then they could let go and actually have the horse waiting for their seat and light as air at 7.
@meupatdoes - What happens if purposely asking the horse to go BTV (not just a millimeter, but a good 30-45* angle) results in the horse learning that this could be a new way to avoid the contact? Does going BTV mean the horse is now breaking at C3 and not using their neck muscles correctly?
I can see your point of view if that is done for a few seconds, although I’ve witnessed professionals ride with the horse’s nose BTV for several minutes. In my mind, I would image the horse is going to become uncomfortable and start using the incorrect muscles. Am I incorrect?
Bad riding is bad riding, be it BTV or above.
Like any techniques unproperly done, it can result in bad habits and training issues.
I can see your point of view if that is done for a few seconds, although I’ve witnessed professionals ride with the horse’s nose BTV for several minutes. In my mind, I would image the horse is going to become uncomfortable and start using the incorrect muscles. Am I incorrect?
You are indeed incorrect.
You think Carl Hester doesn’t know what he is doing? Or Steffen Peters? You believe they are muscling their horses incorrectly?
I think that is where the disconnect has been for me. Not truly & completely understanding the WHY and how the horse’s body is affected. I haven’t had a chance to read all 3 pages from start to end continuously, so that is my first step.
BTV only drops behind the contact if the rider lets it. If the rider creates it with a contact, the horse cannot avoid the contact. This often occurs AFTER the horse has already learned with a lesser rider that the reins go slack if they duck. Any person who rides young horses any length of time quickly learns how to keep the horse on the rein so that these evasions don’t develop.
BTV with the contact intact often results from a lack of strength in the muscling of the horse. I think “btv in the show ring” and “ridden btv regularly” are two different things. In the middle of a test movement, you can’t correct some things the way you’d want to in schooling. That’s horse showing.
What happens if the riding (in whatever iteration) teaches the horse how to avoid the contact?
Hopefully, the rider notices this is happening, fiddles with their approach to see if they can fix it, and if they can’t, they go take a lesson wherein they say, “I’m having XYZ problem that I don’t know how to fix, tell me what to do differently.”
I’m not posting this to be a jerk - there’s a lot of stuff I don’t know how to do the best possible way or things I can’t fix on my own. If I could, I wouldn’t need to spend money getting help.
Riding is dependent on feel. The aids when applied should be 30% telling and 70% listening. 30% “I’m using my hand thusly” and 70% “Is it having the effect I want? How should I adjust for the next stride based on the information I’m getting in this stride?” 30/70 tell/listen is what feel is.
When I was a kid, I thought the gas pedal told the car how fast to go. ie, pressing it 20% down = 30mph, 70% down = 75mph, 85% down = 95 mph. When I learned how to drive I quickly figured out that pressing the gas 70% down gets you completely different results depending on if, say, you are going up a hill or down one.
Coming online and saying, “GIVE ME THE ONE ANSWER, THE ONE REASON, THE WAY TO DO IT THAT WILL ALWAYS BE RIGHT AND CAN NEVER GO WRONG” is the opposite of feel. It’s asking for an aid you can apply without ever having to listen. It’s asking for a conclusion you can draw without having to evaluate the steps that came before or the hoped-for result 20 steps later. It does not even conceptualize the application of aids or positioning of the horse as a listening or adjustable situation. It’s like saying, “How much do I need to press on the gas pedal to go exactly 75mph?”
Asking, “Well what if riding BTV teaches the horse a new way to avoid the contact?” is like saying “What if pressing the gas pedal 70% down causes the car to go too fast and lose control in a corner?” Uh, you probably should have eased up on the gas when you crested the hill, then.
You need to use feel to ride.
You also, as it turns out, need to use feel to evaluate pictures of other people riding.
OP, in the main I agree with you and the other posters pointing out this issue. One consideration - I believe the ‘vertical’ is measured as the line between eye and nostril, not the plane of the face.
There have been some pictures that I thought were BTV based on the front of the head, but where the nostril was directly below the eye so likely considered as ok by a judge.
And I have also see above the bit (not necessarily hollow) dinged badly and BTV mildly or not at all, but I am glad to hear the pendulum may be swinging back
I haven’t heard the eye-nostril alignment thought, interesting.
Seeking some clarification, because some of the comments have me thinking that our definitions are not the same.
A horse that is “above the bit” is not accepting the contact and is most likely hollow. I don’t think I have seen a horse above the bit that is not hollow personally.
“On the bit” means the horse has communicative contact with the rider through the reins. It is not in reference to a particular head or neck position. I actually prefer “on the aids” as a bit isn’t mandatory for this connection through the reins, but that is another discussion entirely. The point being that any horse, regardless of training level, can be on the bit/aids, even if the face isn’t perpendicular to the ground.
In front of the vertical is the face is slightly forward of perpendicular. Behind the vertical has a horse with it’s nose behind that perpendicular line.
When the neck is up a horse that is behind the vertical will put its breathing at risk due to how closed the throatlatch is. They are also must break at the third vertebrae, which is damaging.
If you have a horse on the vertical with an elevated neck and the neck lowers, the horse WILL come behind the vertical if the horse isn’t allowed or encouraged to stretch and open the throatlatch, however the airway will not be further compromised because the angle formed by the skull and the upper vertebrae will not change. But vision is compromised in this position and you would have to be VERY careful not to compress the neck further in that position and I personally don’t feel comfortable riding a horse that can’t see where it’s feet are going.
In summary, issues with being behind the vertical:
-When the neck is elevated it compromises the horse’s breathing by compressing the trachea
-When the neck is elevated or low and extremely curled the horse will be “breaking” at the third vertebrae, which overstretches the nuchal ligament and can lead to arthritis and other issues
-It restricts vision, while the eye does rotate in its socket to an extend in order to keep the pupil horizontal, once the heqd tucks to a certain point it can’t anymore and leaves a very large blind spot
Most horses will drop behind the vertical on occasion and for a second or two, which I don’t see an issue with. It happens. However, if the horse is there for minutes at a time, more than just a degree or two, and especially if it has been held or chased there by the rider, I then see it as no good and physically damaging and thete is no good excuse for doing that to a horse.
