Somehow at FEI show jumping events, a class runs at a particular time with a particular number of entries, with multiple rings going, and there’s nowhere near the drama of USEF shows.
16 Likes
The Oaks Blenheim shows generally have ride times. The way it works is that the you or your trainer sign up online the day before after a certain time in the evening. That way the trainer can arrange their schedule to their liking and there isn’t a poor person from show management who has to use a crystal ball to determine what the trainers want and then deal with the aftermath. They generally don’t allow post entries the day of the show unless it somehow doesn’t mess up the schedule. This would not work at a show that allows, or especially encourages post entries, which many of the smaller B or C shows do.
Having shown both dressage and HJ, IMHO there is more complexity involved with a HJ show. For dressage, the ring is the same for everyone (unless you have some classes with >1 judge) so it’s possible to slip someone in a ride out of order and/or mix up pro/ammy/young rider divisions, the rides are longer and generally not back to back or even close so there are fewer horses milling about and warming up at a given time, and the shows with seven rings are less common than they are at big HJ shows. They’ve done some shows at Thermal and the Oaks with both HJ and dressage rings and the dressage riders generally comment on how busier (more chaotic? alarming? so many golf carts?) the HJ shows are.
Again, IMHO, I think that HJ shows at all levels are more user friendly with respect to schedules than they were in the days of my youth. For whatever reason (online entries?? more back gate people??), you can generally make a prediction when things are likely to happen, or at least come up with a ballpark figure.
This raises an important point. Entries close for dressage shows fairly far in advance. And by close, that means no post entries except in rare circumstances and when there’s a scratch. But certainly no adding classes at the last minute in the show office to change your division or add a warmup or a pro class or something. There are some benefits to having some flexibility. And some shows do encourage last minute entries.
While ride times are predictable, depending on what classes you do, you may not be saved from being there all day.
1 Like
It’s not wasted time if it’s time I don’t spend aimlessly walking around the warm up waiting for my go.
You can get eliminated within seconds of your scheduled 4 minute dressage test. They ask the next rider if they’re willing to go early. If yes, they go. If no, not a problem.
3 Likes
Entries also “close” in advance for big HJ shows. Entries close around Jan 7 for the first set of four Thermal shows that end in mid-February. But people typically sigh up for few, if any, classes when they enter. Classes are entered at the show, often the day before each day of showing.
1 Like
Disclaimer, I have not done a rated hunter show in lots of years.
Last one I did there was an entry date, which after you would still enter and pay late fees.
Once entered you could add/substract classes at the show.
At a dressage show entries are like a class entry at a hunter show, not just saying you will be there and save me a stall. So not really comparable to what you are talking about.
Which only supports the thought that ride times are not really a thing unless they made a list that very day.
Thank you for your input. I have asked Mary Babick to reach out to competition management to answer some of these questions and put out a sample horse show financial statement. I ill reach out as wll. Many of the questions and complaints are strictly the juristiction of competition managers . That having been said, we are their customers and the USHJA committee should be readying able to deal with some of these questions.
1 Like
One day Event, 280 horses running, 3 disciplines/elements requiring tack changes, different locations around the site and, for the organiser, the possibility of long holds on the cross country to repair fences or to deal with a major accident (requires building breaks into the time table) and yet Events manage to provide times x 3 per horse in a multi-ring, dynamic show environment. Miss your time, miss your ride, no refunds. The organisers are often running on 3 or 4 successive competition days.
If no one believes that timed rides are possible then timed rides aren’t possible.
20 Likes
I think that’s what I was trying to say. That what happens when entries close for a dressage show (specific classes are entered for a firm commitment) vs a HJ show (hey, I’m coming to your show; here’s money to reserve a stall and I’ll decide what I’m entering when I get there, or the night before each showing day, or maybe at the back gate if you let that happen).
2 Likes
Rocky Mountain Show Jumping shows have multiple hunter/jumper rings and ride times. They start and end on time. Just a matter of setting expectations and being organized.
14 Likes
At CSIs, you declare your specific classes the day before. They put out the order of go that night. People mostly go in that order. If you miss your class, you miss it. I’ve worked for a rider who missed classes, because she really thought she was important and that the world would wait. She was wrong.
Things begin and end almost entirely on time, barring a significant injury.
As above, it just takes the willingness to organize and enforce.
15 Likes
Exactly. That’s how it runs at Spruce, your barn gets everyone’s ride times on a single sheet and that is when you are expected to walk into the ring.
It is absolutely doable. The problem is it sort of forces larger barns to have more and more assistants to be able to warm people up when there are conflicts.
I think this is a central challenge in why showing can get expensive and why I think we should be encouraging smaller, boutique shows. This would allow trainers who don’t have an army of staff (and the associated costs of that) to be able to take their barn to compete.
OR, we could all learn to warm ourselves up so we can handle a trainer conflict. I can’t hear half of what my trainer says to me anyway, so who knows, maybe I would be better.
13 Likes
Yep. If you only have one or maybe two rings running, very little chance of ring conflicts. And then you could set a schedule of rides for the day. And I’ve seen H/J shows say no same day add/scratch. You could very easily have an order and ride times the night before. I’ve ridden at finals with an order of go, and it didn’t seem to blow anyone’s mind.
I LOVE having ride times at dressage shows and events. Makes planning my day easier, makes convincing family/SO to stop by easier, and at a few dressage shows I’ve been to, you can text the photographer shooting your ring/time/# and they’ll make sure to get photos for you. All lovely!
6 Likes
I really like your database idea. I think that is available but only to licensed officials. I will follow that up. When I need to get a number for someone I have to know who to reach out to and I think the current rosters of all licensed officials should be available. I don’t think it should have contact #s though as I think they would be misused, judging by the amount of emotional bullying I have seen on FB. Only shows can determine their schedules, but I think they will do what they feel the exhibitors want. Smaller shows will run AA AO classes on the weekend, the bigger ones I’m not so sure, it varies. The 3 classes per division was to stop people from over showing in multiple divisions not just one. I vaguely remember discussions on this. I’ll get back to you. The last point you make I agree with. I do have an idea for this one though but not all the USHJA committees would do it. They could assign one member (it should be the chair) to have a designated e-mail where members could reach out directly with questions and comments. I would be happy to do this for the Amateurs. My e-mail is pjayers2@me.com with your e-mail and I will get back to you with the answers to your questions.
2 Likes
USHJA does have a trainer certification program but I don’t think it’s mandatory. Younger trainers are more likely to apply for it and take the tests the the older ones. I may be mis speaking here but many of the older trainers didn’t want to (or were worried by the tests) however ALL the big time trainers I know have done it. I’m not sure if USHJA/USEF can make that mandatory or police it. Would have to get back to you on that one. I understand your last point about the riders moving up and I agar it’s scary but again I don’t think it would be enforceable. I have seen that scenario and I know I wouldn’t want to get involved with going to said rider or trainer.
1 Like
I think the issue here is offering as much support to B/C level local shows as possible. Riding times is a difficult one, right now only WEF really has that one down and it’s because it’s such a big and complex operation.
1 Like
I agree completely with you. I stopped showing at HITS shows 5 or 6 years ago because the footing was so bad at ALL of them. Money talks but until there are enough other showing options the are not USEF rated to go to, this idea will not fly. However, if you make enough noise and reach out to the sponsors of USEF and USHJA that will help. Bombarding the board with e-mails will too. Not a total solution, just a start.
2 Likes
There are a thousand different viewpoints but having read a number of them lately I think many come down 1. Expense of showing overall 2. Wanting to be heard and questions answered on lots of different topics. I can actually answer some of the questions and the ones I can’t I usually know who can. I have an idea for this which is that there should be someone on every USHJA standing committee who should have a dedicated e-mail to answer questions from members and that e-mail needs to be published. I am sure many committees would not want to do this but since I am the Vice Chair of the Amateur committee, I would do it. I am going to speak to Mary Babick about it.
5 Likes
Ride times are absolutely possible. As others have mentioned there are shows that have them and everyone survives. With COVID, most shows I’ve seen are now requiring pre-entries and some do not allow adds on the day of the show. It’s worked fine. You can always scratch if things go south!
As ladyj says, it’s about setting up the rules and then enforcing them. I’ve been at shows with ride times and I LOVE it. It gives everyone a structure to work within, and if there are conflicts these can usually be settled by moving someone to the bottom of the list so everyone else can go, versus sitting around waiting for hours for a trainer to make their way over from the pony ring or whatever. If the rider still isn’t ready to go, well, too bad. Class is closed. Life (and the show) goes on.
I’ve written about this elsewhere, but at events there are trainers who have multiple students and/or their own horses going in three different areas throughout the day/over 2-4 days. There are ride times for dressage and stadium in the one-day events (and you just go do your XC after you complete stadium), and ride times for dressage and XC in the 3 days. Stadium in the 3 days is set by the leaderboard after the other two phases, so whoever is last goes first, all the way up to the leader. They all seem to manage these multiple riders/horses/rings fine, even with the added geography of a XC course to navigate.
It is possible. Heck, even just having a three minute call would be an improvement over the stupidity of a class being held for hours over a ring conflict. If your trainer can’t get to you to warm you up because they have other students then maybe they need to get an assistant trainer. Maybe they need to talk to the gate people so Rider A is at the top of the list, B is in the middle, and C is at the bottom in their different rings. And so on. All of this is possible with some organization, but if you just let people not care because they know the ring will be held they aren’t going to bother.
12 Likes
With respect to trainers with too many conflicts solving the problem via a hired assistant.
You might have a hard time squeezing a second salary out of the wrong-sized training business. There is a magic set of numbers out there— how many horses in full training support one person, how many horses needed to pay two salaries, and the uncomfortable place in between where there are too many for one so that the primary trainer is run off her feet and/or going hungry paying the assistant.
IMO, a huge cause of this state of affairs is an industry that encourages people to “do their paying” when they go to horse shows and buy/sell horses. What we don’t do is pay for sustainability-- higher prices for board, training and lessons at home, with less of the rider’s budget going to showing.
Until we pay fairly for the labor component of horsing, nothing will get better.
7 Likes
