Lisa Indigent. 
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I have a small farm in Florida, show down here in the winter, and have two nice horses. I’ve never accepted a penny for training, though I was a professional groom for several years before getting a real job to be able to pay for all these things.
The person I referred to in my previous post has been riding several horses owned by her trainer, including one for about 5 years now, and she always thanks her trainer for “letting her ride these horses” and the trainer refers to her as a “valued member of the team” so I can’t say that doesn’t read a whole lot like working student at the very least, but it seems to skate inside the rules, and who am I to begrudge someone smarter at loopholes than the rest of us.
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ok, I admit that got me for a second hehehe
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You are accusing someone of cheating when there is no evidence except (evidence in your mind) that she thanks her trainer and her trainer values her. It’s beginning to sound like sour grapes.
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Hm, well, one, I didn’t accuse anyone specifically but when someone doesn’t ride any of their own horses and constantly posts social media content that implies they are an assistant trainer/working student but shows as an amateur…
I’m not the only one in the region who’s questioned it. I know at least two people who have protested her status, but as the proof you have to provide must be a financial document or clear proof of monetary payment, neither protest was upheld. Being provided a $$$ horse to ride for free is not considered renumeration.
If I had loads of money, and didn’t need a full time job, I can totally see becoming an unpaid apprentice to my coach. Well, if I were a bit younger. And I’d probably end up paying for things for my coach.
The very wealthy armatuer here can afford her own horses and stables. She can hire a coach who allows her to work as an unpaid apprentice and trainer. I expect the amateur has no need to trade board for rides or charge $45 an hour to do training rides, or whatever. Why would she care?
So I could totally believe there is no money changing hands in the direction of the amateur. If you are doing an assistant trainer job for free, that does not violate any rules.
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Glad I checked here before starting a new thread on this!!
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Lord, yes. Thank you. I’m not the poster to whom the original comment was directed this time. However, I have been helpfully reminded in similar threads that other people have more money & nicer horses than me. Most people have more money than I do, so it’s hardly shocking to hear 
. ( I don’t mind. I’ve somewhat gotten around financial disadvantage by having a knack for getting along with problem horses that were talented but “unenjoyable” to ride. )
Doesn’t change that the manner in which the ammy rules in the US work likely don’t help to raise the quality of competition. I agree with you.
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I still don’t get the complaints. The amateur rule was created so that weekend warriors wouldn’t have to compete against full-time professional riders and Olympic team members. Sounds fair enough. And any amateur who thinks that doesn’t raise the quality of competition enough can compete in the open division instead. How is this a big problem facing dressage?
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Pf… how many times do weekend warriors compete against Olympian’s…
We had this nice example in Germany… not sure if you know Lisa Mueller… she is the wife of a famous Soccer player in Germany. Obviously she has lots of money and she decided to ride with Isabel Werth. she trained with her for some years, bought some expensive horses and moved up in Dressage. 2 years ago she did beat Isabel Werth in a big competition… So… I know she is not a weekend warrior, but she probably was before she got married and a weekend warrior would have never competed in that competition anyhow… that’s the video of her ride… https://youtu.be/SodOd6_UtZA
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There aren’t many weekend warriors competing in dressage. A weekend warrior can’t get above Training level and won’t be competitive there.
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Nice!!! Thanks!
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Depends on your definition of “weekend warrior” and where you are located.
Hilda Gurney is a fixture at many of the So Cal shows and while not Olympians, there are plenty of big name trainers that show regularly in the open division. If not for the separation between amateur and open divisions, I would have shown against them. In fact, there was a BIG kerfuffle recently in CDS when they combined the open and amateur divisions for the futurity at the annual show.
I define a weekend warrior as someone with a full time job unrelated to horses. I fell into that group before my recent retirement. I literally only rode on the weekend, yet somehow managed to earn my bronze and silver as well as top 3 placings at regionals and the CDS Regional AA Championships at 1st, 2nd and 3rd level. I did it by being able to afford nice horses, including 1 amazing schoolmaster, as a result of working my tail off in the aerospace industry, hiring a good trainer and working hard when I could ride.
This doesn’t make me any “better” than someone without the same resources, neither does it make me less. We’re all on our own paths.
I’m struck by how you tie this woman’s success to her marriage.
Just sayin’
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Whatever… maybe this link helps… https://ohmyfootball.com/news/495/muller-wife-lisa-muller
Not sure why it is necessary to doubt everything I post… MAYBE she would have gotten just as famous as her husband… maybe… Nobody knows…
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Hmm, I’ve been thinking about this and want to make sure I understand where you’re coming from. So when you say that your horse is being compared to its peers in a class, your concern is that your score will be lower than it would be if your horse were the “best” in the class?
I agree that your placing in a class is based on your score compared to the scores of others, however, your score should be based on the comparison of your horse/rider skills to the standard forming the basis of the numerical scale for judging. As I mentioned previously, I’ve seen judges keep track of the collective marks as a baseline for their subsequent scoring, but I don’t view that as anything other than a baseline calibration against the standard because anchoring is a real thing.
It’s clear this isn’t the first rodeo for either of us. You’ve been around enough to know that gaits are part of the scoring equation. As Lilo Fore once said in response to the question of whether great gaits were too richly rewarded at lower levels, “Well, I’m certainly not going to penalize them!”
I’ll drop the ribbon-getting if you drop the win/lose/beat me stuff.
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Yeah, I mean, this is Day 1 of the L program (ok maybe not really as I don’t remember Day 1 exactly, but they absolutely drill this into you in the L program, and most likely at every judge education level thereafter). It isn’t a pleasure class where they rank you against that day’s competition. You are absolutely judged and scored relative to the standards set by the sport’s governing body.
(to be clear, I’m agreeing with you 
)
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Really it should be the same anyhow… I have no idea why there would be a difference in the placing if everybody is judged against the standard or otherwise ranked against each other…
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It’s not unusual in eventing for amateurs to compete against 5* riders and even Olympians. But I think there tends to be less difference in quality of the horses, and of course the jumping equalizes things too. I competed an extremely game Paint mare who moved like a camel but would jump anything you pointed her at as long as long as it was under 2’9 and she beat a horse that went on to be in the top 20 three years later at Rolex. My current OTTB is by a stallion who has sired a number of FEI event horses-- and they (and he) were all for sale for four figures at some point. That just isn’t true for many top dressage horses.
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My concern is that the order of horses can influence the placings, depending on the judge. A spectacular mover but poorly ridden hose will influence the scores of the horses presenting afterwards. At the lower levels, movement is rewarded over riding. Therefore, those with the money to purchase an expensive horse even if they can’t ride it well will out-compete an average but well trained and well ridden mover. Not always, but it happens alot. This isn’t about ribbons, it is about a well trained and well ridden horse beat by a natural mover but poorly trained or poorly ridden horse. That’s wrong. I realize the recent collective scores attempt to address this. But people like Lilo Fore will further the idea that money buys ribbons and good comments/scores. It’s sort of the antithesis of dressage. It supports the idea that money is the most important factor in the sport of dressage. Again, why would I want to spent close to $700 to lose to a poorly ridden but talented horse that some ammie buys and has in training with their trainer? That’s not a level playing field, which is why USDF has progressively lost membership. I can have my trainer tell me how my horse rides a test or pay less than $700 for a clinician (even Janet Foy or Tom Poulin or Carla Symader) to tell me how we ride the movements. I don’t need to spend $700 at a recognized show for minimal input. This is a problem for USDF.
I’m very happy to talk about this.
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Disagree. The lower levels is where the average moving but relaxed and well-ridden horse can compete against a “fancy” big moving horse. Obviously if both horses produce accurate, correct, and relaxed tests, the better mover will win. But at Training and First, the quality of gaits doesn’t outweigh tension, hollowness, resistance, mistakes, etc.
In scribing I have seen many “ordinary” horses out score some truly lovely ones, largely because the lovely ones couldn’t produce the relaxation and consistency rewarded at those levels. By Second and particularly Third, where more self carriage, expression, and “thrust” are required, the more athletic movers definitely have the advantage.
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