As someone from outside the dressage world reading this, it seems like a bunch of whining sniveling crybabies, who wanted to get a ribbon but didn’t. These threads get dominated by the same characters over and over.
If it isn’t about the ribbons, this thread wouldn’t exist.
But, as they say, carry on.
If a horse is executing the movement beautifully, then perhaps it should be scoring higher. A 9-mover making mistakes should not score a 7+ because the movement wasn’t clean.
I’m not sure I agree fully with either side of this argument, but I do think I see a lot of nice horses overscored, even when the movement wasn’t true. A lot of the piaffe/passage work on the livestream in FL this year was just this side of awful. Piaffe and passage should be regular. If your horse is big and fancy but has an irregular piaffe, the piaffe shouldn’t be getting 7’s and 8’s.
Always love reading the twists and turns these threads take!
Seems like two issues being discussed right now.
First it the issue of “amateurs” in the show ring and what is “fair”. Some are replying that it doesnt matter to them since they are competing against a standard and that the scores are more important. Others are perhaps interested in year-end awards and feel differently. If I were interested in awards, etc. (Im not) I would still promote the idea of some kind of limit classes for the least experienced.
All this lead to a discussion of scoring and the “fancy” mover (again). Having audited an “L” program, I agree that the judges do have a standard. However, they are human and I have certainly seen especially new judges overawed by a big mover and scoring more generously than I thought was warranted (not that anyone cared what I thought…) And the difficulty at the lower levels is that there are fewer movements not influenced by gaits.
I wonder if this type of discussion happens in HunterLand? Do they complain that they should be able to take their flat-jumping, eggbeater-moving horse and win if they get the strides and meet the jumps perfectly, while that beautifully moving and jumping horse got a long spot?
There are certainly similar discussions in hunters about amateur status and the quality of horses including current standards that dictate a set number of strides per line (should a well ridden course that adds strides really be scored lower than a someone who makes the strides but has several bad distances, are "sham"ateurs sandbagging by riding in divisions that they shouldn’t, etc). I think every discipline debates the question of the weekend warrior versus the professional versus horses in full training versus trained-by-owner, etc.
I think one of the differences with hunters is that a fault has a much bigger impact on the overall score and placing. There are certain major faults that automatically take you out of the running - missed change, knocked rail, breaking gait. Heck even going off-course is handled differently - dressage removes a few points from your score and jumping disciplines eliminate the competitor. So that flat-jumping, eggbeater-moving horse with perfect distances is going to beat the fancy, amazing jumping warmblood if the warmblood misses a lead change, or has a significantly bad distance. There are certainly grey areas - just how bad was the distance? Did the judge and spectators gasp or was it well managed and finessed?
Well I don’t want to get into the discussion about movement, because I don’t believe it at all… So I keep out of it…
regarding your first paragraph…no I think you misunderstood. It’s not about limiting the competition for the less experienced…
If it would be like that I would support the current system!!!
It’s about protecting the people who spend a lot of money for the shows from disappointment…
And getting ribbons for the people who don’t spend the money! Huzzah!
Well trained judges have a base. From then on it is an opinion. Forward, supple, accepting the bit, these are open to individual interpretation. A trained interpretation is still an interpretation. We are not judged by robots.
If you want to go for year end awards pick the shows and judges who reward the type of ride you have, pick the tests that show off your horse’s best qualities. If you want a specific judges opinion on your ride you have many more options. Even better - ride in a clinic! I love clinics, the “judges” have so much more time to access everything. Of course not all judges give clinics in our areas. 
My mare placed better at 2nd and 3rd level than training level. We had better scores riding specific tests, better scores with specific judges. The year we were USDF all breeds champion at first and second level you bet I picked my shows and judges. That year was about the ribbons and it was FUN. The ribbons are pretty and I’m proud of our accomplishments.
It was also expensive on my income and challenging to coordinate. At no time did I change my training standards. I didn’t ride better (or worse) that year, my horse was the same horse, I had the same lack of money, lack of consistent instruction, lack of help at shows and certainly nobody trained my horse. I DID pick judges and competitions where I’d get the highest scores in the correct number.
That’s show craft.
I also agree, many of the big moving spectacular horses are very hard to ride just because they are big moving and spectacular! You often have to be super fit, and have impressive core strength. Not for all of them, but for many.
I forgot to say - I love discussions. I love hearing everybody’s opinions and experiences. We all have our own “reality”, our own veil through which we see the world. Thank goodness we get to share and learn.
So, my question is HOW can anyone judge a “fancy horse” vs “a less fancy horse” vs an “ordinary horse”, or recognise “excellent” riding vs “satisfactory” or “inadequate” riding, unless one has some scale against which to make the comparisons? Not just in dressage: standing on the rail at a show or sitting at a clinic, or watching a film…
Please post a link to this aspect of the rule. No remuneration - cannot see how suggestions are in violation. (1306 https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/nT3TlM3v0NA/gr13-competition-participants-and )
yes you can manage a barn. see link above.
Absolutely discussions about the amateur rule exist in the Hunters, since that’s kind of where the rule originated.
In some ways, it’s maybe not so different though. As someone who has learner judged a bit, and judged at schooling show level, you’re sort of starting out the way others have said the dressage horses are–that big-strided floaty mover is probably starting off the round with a 90 and deducting points from that for faults, versus the short-strided eggbeater starting things off with a 70. But that 90 horse pulls one rail? They’re down to a 50 and the eggbeater will beat them with a solid trip. That’s harder to overcome in dressage, when you’re basically starting with a 9 for every movement versus a 7; you don’t blow a test with one blown movement, or even an Error, the way you do in a hunter trip.
My 2nd Covid shot anchored me to the sofa the other day and I spent a whole afternoon watching the live feed from AGDF. It was nearly all CDI GP tests, amateur and open. These were of course all very fancy moving and expensive horses with very fancy and expensive riders. Horses ranged from solid performers with 3 excellent gaits to the flamboyant leg flingers.
What really stood out to me was that during the course of I think 4 classes, a couple of quite big ones, I saw only three 8s come up on the live scoring, and two of those were for the same horse’s trot half passes. The bad errors got really scored down (I think I saw more 3s than 8s, and there were plenty of 4s and 5s.)
Not a lot of overscoring going on there, in my mind.
My personal observation is that if one really wants to clean up in that company, focus on the entry and all the walk work. So many points left on the table in pursuit of flamboyance, which wasn’t impressing the judges that much.
I’m curious now: I watched a lot of GDF and felt the piaffe and passage was overscored, a lot of horses inverted in the trot work, but the tempis in any form were better across the board as compared to previous years. Thoughts?
Agree that the piaffe scores are often a mystery. Even my fairly untrained eye winces at how commonplace bouncing croups, irregular rhythm, rooting at the bit, and shuffling, travelling steps all seem to be.
But inverted at the trot? Don’t think I’ve ever seen that, unless it’s the rare horse having a huge spook or major meltdown.
Not obviously inverted like dinky backyard ponies, but certainly unmatched fore/hind pairs, overdeveloped undernecks, and sunken behind the saddle.
This is actually a really interesting point about scoring to movement. These massive floaty movers don’t collect that well. They have big gaits that often get shut down and tight instead of elevating the front end into true collection.
They can collect nicely (Adrienne Lyle’s test that was featured on COTH), but lots of the tests I watched on the GDF livestream were lacking the ability to collect without losing engagement.
Without getting into the argument about modern vs. klasikal dressage, if a little mover can’t make the marks for big lofty extensions, shouldn’t big moving warmbloods be losing points for poor collection?
Exactly! Each test has two halts, most above second level have walk TOH/pirouettes, and the opportunity for clean transitions (which lean less on quality of gaits than movements in the gait), which any “6” horse can learn to do well as these movements don’t require fancy 9 gaits.
Gotcha - thanks for the clarification
I don’t know about “formal” dressage, but in eventing dressage I see a lot of points left on the table for just geometry. Look up, know where that circle needs to land, and GET there. My late mare was not a dressage horse, but my geometry was on point and for that I typically scored reasonably well.
That’s a big issue at the lower levels in “formal” dressage too, because honestly there’s not a whole lot else to judge a test on at those levels, so accuracy is very important. And you also tend to get the greenest horses and riders at those levels, which can make accurate a challenge!
My new one is going to be the wiggle circle because she will be wondering if the flowers on the letters are edible lol
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