Unfortunately the judging here in Eventing often doesn’t seem to reflect on accuracy etc.
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Hm. It must here, because that would have been our only saving grace. I mean, she did all the movements where she was supposed to, but relaxation we should have gotten zeros on, honestly. She was a tough horse, mentally. Anxiety through the roof.
Surprisingly, her necropsy showed absolutely no ulcers. I was stunned.
I spent last summer helping my coach out at shows as she pursued her gold medal on a horse that really didn’t have much of a piaffe. We came up with the formula that if she got the 12-15 steps, didn’t walk, and didn’t wander more than a meter, she would get a 6, usually with a comment of “lacks uphill” or no comment at all. Less than 12 steps - 5. Break to walk - 4. Travelling too much - 5.5. If the shuffle was on the spot, in a “1-2-1-2” rhythm and there were 12 steps - bingo - 6.
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Your link doesn’t matter. Download the USEF Rules & Guidelines app.
Begin with :SUBCHAPTER 13-B -Amateurs & Professionals
GR1306 Professional/Amateur Status
Then continue on down to GR1307 AMATEUR STATUS
You’ll find the word “handling,” mentioned more than once- without the requirement of having accepted “remuneration.”
I’m not going to argue this point. An AA may NOT “manage barn.” Period. If you wish to believe you can- take your chances. I have trained with S judges. I have trained with Olympians. And, Olympian “S,” judges. You will find that every single point I’ve stated is within the above rules.
FYI- “handling,” does include turnout, feed, grooming, stall cleaning, etc.
“Ringside tips,” of any kind are construed as “lessons/training.”
“Remuneration,” in addition to some of these requirements to not have to register as “professional,” are included. However, “remuneration,” is quite a large umbrella. I’d be sure I’m standing in the rain, than getting caught standing even partially under that umbrella.
I have had these rules read to me back and forth. I have read them myself directly from the hands of the S judge holding her Rulebook in my face. The rules are not debatable. That said, the handling of a person who breaks these rules well maybe up for debate. As in, “should you (g) report,” or “should you (g) not report?”
Personally, I don’t care unless a person knowingly, remains an AA to collect medal scores which maybe lower for an AA than a “pro.” Or, in competition for scores for GAIGS, freestyles, entering CDI’s against AA’s while knowing very well that person is a paid individual refusing to change her status. That’s called cheating. I can see why this would upset some - infuriate many- alienate others or fly right over some of the lazier people’s heads.
I’m one of the lazier. Reporting people takes up valuable time. I guess the only question that matters is- “how important is person 1’s violation to person 2’s life?” Most things others do just aren’t that important to my life. But I’m not everyone.
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I don’t know what rule book you’re reading, but the USEF one mentions “handling” in GR13 exactly once, and it does require remuneration to be considered a professional activity.
1306.4.j:
j. Accepts remuneration AND acts as an intern, apprentice, or working student whose responsibilities include, but are not limited to, riding, driving, showmanship, handling, showing, training or assisting in training, giving lessons/coaching and/or schooling horses other than horses actually owned by him.
Here’s the whole thing.
Unless expressly permitted above, a person is a professional if after his 18th birthday he does any of the following:
a. Accepts remuneration AND rides, exercises, drives, shows, trains, assists in training, schools or conducts clinics or seminars.
b. Accepts remuneration AND gives riding or driving lessons, showmanship lessons, equitation lessons, trains horses, or provides consultation services in riding, driving, showmanship, equitation, or training of horses.
c. Accepts remuneration AND acts as an employee in a position such as a groom, farrier, bookkeeper, veterinarian or barn manager AND instructs, rides, drives, shows, trains or schools horses that are owned, boarded or trained by his employer, any member of his employer’s family, or a business in which his employer has an ownership interest.
d. Accepts remuneration AND uses his name, photograph or other form of personal association as a horseperson in connection with any advertisement or product/service for sale, including but not limited to apparel, equipment or property.
e. Accepts prize money unless permitted in paragraph 3d or 3e above.
f. Rides, drives or shows any horse that a cohabitant or family member or a cohabitant or family member’s business receives remuneration for boarding, training, riding, driving or showing. A cohabitant or family member of a trainer may not absolve themselves of this rule by entering into a lease or any other agreement for a horse owned by a client of the trainer.
g. Gives instruction to any person or rides, drives, or shows any horse, for which activity his cohabitant or another person in his family or business in which his cohabitant or a family member controls will receive remuneration for the activity. A cohabitant or family member of a trainer may not absolve themselves of this rule by entering into a lease or any other agreement for a horse owned by a client of the trainer.
h. Accepts remuneration AND acts as an agent in the sale of a horse or pony or accepts a horse or pony on consignment for the purpose of sale or training that is not owned by him, his cohabitant, or a member of his family, a farm/ranch/syndicate/partnership/corporation/business in which he, his cohabitant or a member of his family controls.
i. Advertises one’s equestrian services such as training or instruction.
j. Accepts remuneration AND acts as an intern, apprentice, or working student whose responsibilities include, but are not limited to, riding, driving, showmanship, handling, showing, training or assisting in training, giving lessons/coaching and/or schooling horses other than horses actually owned by him.
k. Accepts remuneration in excess of rental fee for use of a facility, ring or school horses.
l. Accepts remuneration for such use AND uses commercial logoed items while on competition grounds unless expressly permitted by applicable division rules.
I think you are mistaken.
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Agreed. From what I know and what you posted above backs this up, you can be a paid groom, barn manager, bookkeeper, vet tech, etc. and maintain AA status as long as you are not also training horses other than your own at the same barn or teaching / coaching riders there (or of course any others for it either).
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Additionally, I believe the word “handler” refers to handling a horse at a show such as an in hand handler at a breed inspection.
There is also a list of things an Amateur MAY do, in 1306.3
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That would be a prudent decision. I hope you stick to it.
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I am barely involved with horses these days, so my thoughts aren’t even worth $0.02. That said–
Rule 1306 details a dozen activities that preclude a person from being able to legitimately claim she is an Amateur.
“Barn Manager” is mentioned only in 1306c–
c. Accepts remuneration AND acts as an employee in a position such as a groom, farrier, bookkeeper, veterinarian or barn manager AND instructs, rides, drives, shows, trains or schools horses that are owned, boarded or trained by his employer, any member of his employer’s family, or a business in which his employer has an ownership interest.
It clearly states the circumstances that make an individual a professional in the eyes of USEF. Glaringly missing from the list of forbidden activities are mucking stalls, turning out horses, feeding horses, grooming horses. Given the explicit detail in 1306a - 1306l, if USEF truly intended to prevent “barn managers” from claiming amateur status, it would be so stated–and in precise, definitive language that leaves no room for doubt.
Also, back when I was involved with breed shows, I was told by a TD that the word “handling” in 1306j refers to–as Lorilu stated–"-in-hand" handling at a breed show, inspection, exhibition or demonstration, or even at a CDI jog.
(edited to fix typo)
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“Handler” as written in the rules pertains to people who show horses in hand, at halter.
If handling a horse made one a professional, we would all be professionals. Absent of payment, telling another riders their change was late behind does not make one a professional.
La La best not put yourself forward as an expert on the rules , no matter what you heard or think you heard from the mouths of those you have worked around. You have this issue wrong.
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Clearly Tom Brady missed that memo. I’ll never forget him stomping off the field in a snit after getting whupped by the Seahawks.
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Wow! This thread has taken a deep dive down several rabbit holes but has been interesting to follow. I just want to point out the use of the conjunction “and” in the following quote:
“Barn Manager” is mentioned only in 1306c–
c. Accepts remuneration AND acts as an employee in a position such as a groom, farrier, bookkeeper, veterinarian or barn manager AND instructs, rides, drives, shows, trains or schools horses that are owned, boarded or trained by his employer, any member of his employer’s family, or a business in which his employer has an ownership interest.
This means that if you receive money from, I assume, the barn owner AND you are an employed as barn manager AND instructs, rides,… then you cannot hold amateur status. However, if you are a barn manager, who receives money for that position but do not “instructs, rides…” any horse other than your own, you can hold amateur status.
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That’s what the AND (in all caps to stress it) means, but some people can’t read, and instead will dig their heels in instead of saying “whoops, I was wrong”.
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Yes, you can be a Barn Manager on salary and be an AA.
You can train and give lessons for free and be an AA.
You can’t be a BM on salary at Barn X and also train other people’s horses at Barn X Becuase it’s too easy to hide your trainer income as BM income. But you can go train other people’s horses for free at Barn Y where you have no financial relationship.
I assume “ride” includes trail rides or hacking out. So if the Barn Owner lends advanced beginner BM a 20 year old bomb proof pony to go horse camping, I guess that technically means they are disqualified as an AA.
If the BM is leasing a horse and paying for that horse, does that change things?
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Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to point out. Even though 1306c mentions “barn manager,” it also states that the individual has to receive remuneration AND be involved with one of the named activities to be considered a “non-amateur.” But since the “named activities” do NOT include feeding, turnout, grooming, mucking, if seems clear that USEF did not intend to assert that “all” barn managers are professionals–only those performing the stated activities (instructing, riding, driving, etc.).
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the evolution of the paid for this, does that rule…
cooks babysitters bookkeepers etc wink wink and oh by the way ride these 6 horses.
I learned the evolution of this rules from an I judge, trainer, barn owner, clinician and former president of the then AHSA. They were not shy in saying this was a common ploy in the Hunter Jumper world and that they , themselves, participated in this before the loophole was closed.
the extended , convoluted rules grew out of the need . Where a hole exists, someone will think of a way to squeeze thru it until enough people complain about it to plug it up
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I keep trying to dredge up some sympathy for her, but she ruins it every time.
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I think I’m not.
Also- I should’ve edited my other post to say, “I’m not going to argue this point *with you.”
You literally copied & pasted mostly every point I’ve made. So… thank you! You’ll find that not every requirement involves “remuneration.” I mean, if you bother to read your own copy n paste AND receive the info provided in the actual Rulebook- that would render you a “professional,” at rule comprehension!
The topic at hand was whether a rider should or shouldn’t report another rider & how to go about doing so. Perhaps, it is you who should “stick to it.”
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You are the only one here who doesn’t understand the rule. But frankly, it doesn’t matter one bit. You and I will never cross paths, and for that I am thankful.
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Suggest you read “e, f & g,” of your copy n paste more carefully.
I seriously doubt we will ever “cross paths.” Your loss.
