Yes, they are PAYING YOU to ride your horse-- that’s just a lease to some extent. I lose my ammy card because people PAY ME to ride their horse. I know I am a good rider (by no means perfect) so I’m not riding other people’s horses for free. Exactly, why would I do it for free?
It’s really not about how much money you make. It’s about the fact that people consider my riding good enough to pay me to ride their horse. Is that not the same business model as a professional?
So you make a living from riding other peoples horses?
No, I work 50 hrs a week, hence why I don’t have time to ride people’s horses for free. 
See …exactly what I am saying 
I dont know if the North American system is the most coherent. But given the size and decentralization of the horse industry, the fact that pros are not certified or tracked, and the prevalence of schooling shows where people can gain experiemce, and the relatively small size of recognized dressage class turnout in many jurisdictions, I’m not sure the German model of grouping riders by level of previous accomplishment would work.
If you have a show with 5 entries in AA and 5 in Open, and you throw them together and then divide into levels according to previous accomplishments, say you have 5 levels, you now have 5 classes of 2 riders each. Well, more ribbons to go around, I guess.
I wonder what our local low level pros would think of this? Take our local pro who has elbowed her way up to 4th and even once at PSG getting all her scores at about 55%. Right now she could go in Open in a poorly attended show and get a ribbon. In the German system she would likely be a lower rank, and would she be able to go “up the levels” with such low scores? The German system likely gives more clarity to actual riding levels, and not all pros want that!
Anyhow, I think most North American riders have adapted to function in the current system. This whole thread is about policing the borderline between amateur and pro, in cases where the ammie might be getting some consideration and technically breaking the rules, but is not setting up shop as a full fledged pro.
All systems have a certain potential for some breaking or bending rules by determined people. Also, all systems can be used to unfairly or maliciously to harass folks who are actually following the rules.
The OP here was a query based essentially on spite. The OP really dislikes Terrible Boarder, with reason, and was wondering whether she could take action on her suspicion that TB was getting some form of remuneration for riding the BO’s horses.
Much later, we hear from someone on the opposite side of the equation. They described how they rode a friend’s horse for free, but then had multiple people report them as a pro to the show steward, or something like that.
Both of these anecdotes as described here appear to be a similar situation of interpersonal conflict taken out in “reporting” someone who doesn’t actually have pro level skills or ambition.
There’s another anecdote early on about a very wealthy amateur who is apparently funding a whole show barn and training her own or other peoples horses. But in that case, the money appears to be flowing in only one direction, from the ammie to the trainer and barn. The ammie doesn’t need to charge $40 an hour to ride a green horse or trade work for reduced board, etc.
I don’t think the ammie/open division is keeping anyone out of the show ring. I agree that the main thing that keeps lower level budget conscious amateurs out of recognized shows in North America is the high cost. Especially for modest horse/rider pairs dabbling in Training, First, Second, it makes more sense to go to a nicely run schooling show that’s smaller, low key, cheaper, and often has the same judge as recognized.
As far as allowing ammie riders to do some lower level pro jobs for money, like teaching beginner lessons or exercising horses, that’s not exactly going to help offset their riding costs in any meaningful way. The “wealthy ammie” is a relative term of course, and relative to local income levels. But I take it to mean someone with seriously deep pockets who can afford to buy a horse upwards of $50, 000, pay for top board and training and lessons, and pay to attend the shows of their choice. And afford the saddles of their choice. Maybe they are still busy in their profession and need more trainer support to make this all happen. Maybe they are free of the need to work at a job and can pursue their hobby all day. Maybe they have the cash to actually set up a barn and hire a trainer.
No amount of teaching lessons puts you in that income category. There are some things that do. Family money, or early stock options in Microsoft, or having a dad who has been my favorite rock star for 40 years, do it. Teaching beginner lessons and riding sales horses, not so much.
Bottom line
if you have issues with the Ami rule, ride Open. Vote with your participation. I rode open in some classes simply because it helped with the last day schedule.
See Y’all later
So if the conditions are not the same, why are the rules the same???
Because not everyone is showing in exclusively one discipline. My “primary” discipline when I sign up for my USEF membership is actually H/J–I have showed in the Adult Amateur hunter division, and I showed my young horse in Amateur Handler classes last year. But I also show dressage–I’ll probably be doing more recognized dressage shows than hunter shows this year.
USEF is the organization who issues my Amateur Card–so they issue one card, valid for all members across all of the disciplines they have jurisdiction over. You have to pick one, with the same rule, across all the disciplines, because there are people out there showing both Morgans and Dressage, and Hunters and Dressage, and Jumpers and Eventers at the same time and need an organization-wide rule.
No one is forcing anyone who doesn’t want to be in the Amateur divisions to show in them. Amateurs are allowed to compete in Open classes and still be amateurs.
There are plenty of other examples of how to divide riders using previous accomplishments outside Germany (UK, Australia, New Zealand to name a few)
The Australian “Amateur Owner Rider” designation may interest people who are debating here because that depends on both experience and income sources, but the income rules are set up so that they would not preclude someone making extra cash from coaching beginners (it does exclude people from riding/training other people’s horses for pay, however)
It doesn’t prevent any such thing. It’s prevents them from giving lessons or training horses AND showing in the AA division. So what? They can show in the Open division. Big deal.
This 100%. Does anyone live anywhere where there is a big epidemic of people spying on AAs and reporting them for alleged violations? I think it’s only a big problem in some people’s minds.
Manni here’s what you’re failing to understand : riding other people’s horses for remuneration doesn’t make you goodenough to be a pro. It just makes you a pro. Anyone can be a pro. All you have to do is declare it, and poof,you are one.
I swear, maybe it would help some people to think about it as “OPEN” and “Adult Amateur”. In dressage it is not “Pro” vs “AA”. I’m almost certain that there isn’t even a “pro” division in H/J, but a non-designated, A/O, and non-pro divisions. It’s totally outside my wheelhouse when it comes to showing, so I’m not 100% sure about that.
There is nothing that prevents a AA from competing in the Open Division. Nothing. The limit is a someone who has not declared themselves an amateur competing in AA. The reality is that unless you hold a non-member AA card. if you are competing as a non-member, you have to show in the open division as well, regardless of your pro vs amateur status. That was how some of the YRs were getting around the no JR/YR division for USDF Finals, particularly for freestyles - they’d show in the open division at regionals for freestyles. And that is a whole other weird asterisk - in dressage you can show as a JR/YR until you turn 22 under USEF rules, but other disciplines age you out at 18. That’s one I’d actually like to see go away - it always irks me to see the 21yo “pro” competing against the 12yos.
You can not agree with the limitations all you want, but the reality is that USEF has decided this is how they are running their shows. Their sandbox - their rules. Don’t like it? Show somewhere else. Stick to schooling shows until you are ready for CDIs that fall under FEI rules. Their amateur division is even more convoluted than USEF. Don’t like it? Submit rule change proposals. Coming onto a internet bb and bitching about it doesn’t make a lick of difference.
Don’t like that you can’t teach a handful of beginner lessons on a Saturday afternoon? Blame all the people that came before you and abused the rules. As I already said - blame the H/J trainer who employer their assistant trainer as a “nanny” or “bookkeeper”. Blame the dressage trainer who compensated their working student with free training, horse board, housing, and food and wrote the check for the student’s personal horse show expenses.
Damn. Prize money would be forever out of the question for me. It should be “most practical & most effective riding wear, for under coats/shads in blazing hot days.” (Arctic cool!!) But PLEASE don’t send prize money! I’ll have to spend $200 just to report myself! 
I know . Obviously it’s simply a misunderstanding on my part so far but I got it now . The division in classes in the US is based on being able to earn 300$ in the horse industry . It is kind of cool criteria if you compare it to other criteria which could be applied…
Doesn’t get it. Doesn’t want to get it. Wasted effort.
Oh, she gets it, but she’s like a dog with a bone. She doesn’t like the AA rule that, since she’s not even in the U.S., doesn’t affect her at all, but for some reason enjoys complaining about it. I don’t know what her problem is, but there’s definitely a problem. It’s not worth engaging with her over it.
Maybe stop getting personal… I hope the Mods will interfere and clean up… You don’t seem to contribute but only are busy to tell me that I am wrong…
Telling you that you are wrong, as I and many others have done, IS contributing, because you are wrong.
This is ironic coming from you, who came pretty close to libel with these false accusations. Sure, let’s talk about getting personal. You need to stop, now.
I really tried to explain that long ago on this thread. No one cares about the “special class” for Jr/YR; or “special awards” designated for VIntage riders. But separate out the AAs//// Heavens, thats manipulating the system.
Meaning of amateur in English
DEFINITION
AMATEUR
adjective
US /ˈæm.ə.tʃɚ/ UK /ˈæm.ə.tər/
Taking part in an activity for pleasure, not as a job.
An amateur astronomer/boxer/historian
Just like Charlotte Jorst and Alice Tarjan.
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