AH HA! never occurred to me to look in by-laws. The only time I’ve ever run into this was a barn owner who was bringing along her own mare and talking shows. We discussed “amateur” because she was just the BO. Then 8 months or so later started collecting $ for some training/teaching - not serious, or extensive. I just casually mentioned one day “this will make you a pro for showing purposes”. In the end mare had issues and never showed.
I found it very interesting that this thread has brought out so many subtopics. Honestly, my only intent was to find out about the process. There is no crime in wanting to know where to go IF I decided to go the route of reporting her.
I also realized I never mentioned that TBDQ said “ok” after being offered compensation.
As of today, I will not report. I don’t have financial transaction proof, or any other proof to show any committee other than hearing a conversation.
As far as the past experiences with TBDQ, it’s over and I’ve dealt with it. Coexisting is my fortè. SHE feels like she is competing with me, not the other way around. I’m very happy with my casual rider students just striving to be better horsewomen. This is not a spite move. TBDQ has BIG aspirations that are way larger than I even have. Why wouldn’t I be ok with that? Like everyone said , it’s my own journey.
The way I see Any rule, it will be followed 100% or it will be broken 100%. That grey area is where it gets uncomfortable.
In this instance because of what I heard from the mentioned conversation, her ability and financial background has nothing to do with her collecting compensation for training.
Amateur rule topic is a hot button, for sure. From this nobody professional, I had no idea how many people were against/for the rule. I guess I always thought it was an honor to be considered a pro in our sport. Sadly, I was very, very wrong.
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This rule has been a hot button for decades. There are many, many perspectives and I think the one area that we can all agree on is that there will never be a clear sensible equitable way to level the playing field to the satisfaction of all these perspectives.
In regards to the themes of the various tangents this thread has gone, I too, wish there was less focus on this rule and more focus on how to build the foundation of dressage in terms of supporters. I believe the advent of western dressage is a sincere attempt to open up the discipline to more riders but that leaves those of us with a sincere interest in conventional dressage with lesser means to continue in the very same vein we’ve found ourselves in today…but that being said I think there are still reasonable goals (which come with some gratification) for many of us with limited resources +/- unconventional horses that can be attained through competitive dressage and that includes winning from time-to-time. From local club awards to All-Breed Awards to rider certificates and/or the medal program, there still is incentive for some of us mere mortals. The issue of the expense and whether or not those goals are worth that expense is an individual internal battle and a completely different topic.
What struck me about this particular post is that I see no honor or dishonor in being a professional vs. an amateur. Honor comes form respecting the horse and seeking to be the best rider/trainer/coach you can be in order to bring out the best in the horse. To me THAT is the honor - to be given the opportunity, the gift to ride and help/guide that horse into better balance, better use of itself and the development of better gaits. The tests we ride in shows are there to demonstrate if we’re reaching such goals. So for most of us who represent the ‘used to be known as the grass roots types’ and still stick to our journey taking our own path to learn and get the most out of dressage, the issue of the amateur rule becomes a thorn only for those who feel they have something to prove to the rest of the world…and to their targets - whether rightfully or wrongfully accused. This rule despite acclaimed intent has unfortunately done little to level the playing field nor has it ever demonstrated who is the most talented/gifted/experienced/ honorable/etc of horse people. It sounds like you, the OP, have made your decision for now and at least you also acquired the information needed should you change your mind (or have the evidence to back up your suspicions). I also believe that as long as you put your integrity first in representing your work as a professional dressage rider/trainer/instructor that you will not ever be considered a ‘nobody’ professional which will be reflected in those who follow you. Let Karma take care of the rest. Life is too short and energies are best focused on what you really can control.
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I too don’t see where anything on this thread “dishonoured” pros. But on the other hand, anyone can stick out their shingle as a horse trainer or coach. Big lesson factories hire their own 20 year old students to teach beginners. Misguided horse whisperers start up YouTube channels. Feral teens advertise as trainers.
So there is no special honor attached to merely technically being a horse pro, because there are no qualifications. There is certainly respect attached to being a good horse pro or a good amateur rider.
As far as placing, all you need is a small enough class, even in a Gold open show. I know a very low level trainer who figured out which Gold show was chronically underattended, and patronized it for the second place ribbons which she could get with a score of 55.
On the other hand, in Training or First level at a healthy schooling show, with 10 or 15 people in the class, you are going to need a much higher score to get a ribbon!
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Some of the twists and turns this thread has made were good for me. It’s been really nice reading from the folks on this thread who have similar goals.
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Other countries level the field by giving ranking points to riders regardless whether they are Amateurs or Pros…You are ranked according to your success in shows… This way Amateurs and Pros who are on the same level compete against each other…
And other countries don’t declare somebody a pro simply because he is giving some lessons… They declare somebody a pro after he finished an education in that field…
But other countries are of course not comparable to the Situation in the US…
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In North America, there is no education process and no uniform credentialing process. Even in Canada, the EC credential process is optional. Many higher end coaches skip it, as do many low end ones, for different reasons.
If all coaches are trained, tested, credentialed, like other professions (dentist, accountant, kindergarten teacher, lawyer etc etc) then you simply cannot have rogue coaches or trainers running around charging fees. There is a central registry where all pros are listed.
In North America there is no registry and no universal certification. Also there is such a robust schooling show scene, that it is impossible to track a person’s lifetime performance. In some areas you could have extensive experience in schooling show circuits and little or no appearance at rated shows, and therefore much more experience than your paper record shows.
So I dont honestly know how else USEF could police the ammie/pro divide.
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In many other sports, being an amateur is actually about money. You are a pro athlete if you are paid to be an athlete, or you play in a professional league. This has always been a big deal because the Olympics were for amateur athletes only until 1988 (officially) and until much later than that for many sports depending on how the governing federations treat the distinction. The idea of fairness for the average competitor never really played into it, actually.
There’s relatively few sports where simply doling out a pile of money or even time to getting better at it will make it possible to be a top-class athlete. Thus it’s a bit of a unique situation where the sporting equipment has skills and thoughts of its own that can be bought and sold. Sports like sailing use one-design boats for international competition - but you can’t exactly have a fleet of one-design horses.
So what??? There is no need for a divide between AA and Pros… I believe in divisions according to ability… much more effective… and the US system only brings out the bad in people as we can see in this thread…
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I don’t understand your issue with it. If you want to compete against the pros, nothing is stopping you from entering the open division. If you want to compete against other ammies, that’s what the AA is for. Either way, your scores will still be the same, so what’s the big deal?
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This is pretty much what I’m always trying to express here on the forums. Just not as succinctly as you did.
Imo, “Normal” level dressage in my geographic area is more inclusive than some of the other disciplines. I know that is not the case everywhere, though.
@Manni01, I wish we did things that way in the US, too.
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This reminded me that all attempts to take finances out of the equation fail.
In both Formula V and Formula Ford, the engine and chassis were specified, so everyone is working with the same equipment, and the most skilled driver will win.
But, it always turns out that there are a few talented mechanics who can tune the engines and set up the chassis for just that little bit more performance. Their services are much in demand, and they can charge higher fees (supply and demand).
So only those with more money can afford the services that make the differences between a winning car, and an also-ran.
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I think it is hard to discuss different ways of doing something with people who know only one way… AND THIS IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE OFFENSIVE!!!
I can’t help it but I saw a lot and always tried to be open minded… and I am still thankful for my year as an exchange student in Kansas which started it… I think every system has good parts and bad parts and you need to enjoy the good parts in order to keep your inner peace. I do try to see the positive in every new Situation I see…
And I know it gets long but in order to understand my opinion, .you need to know why I think how I think…
For example my family moved to former East Germany 3 years after the wall came down… Imagine a socialist country GASP!!! We did this because of a job opportunity for my husband as countless other West Germans… (most of them moved back very soon though…)
At that time nearly everything in former East Germany was still intact and working in the same way as it had for decades… coming from Hamburg to a little village in East Germany the difference was stunning… for example the way how childcare was different was impressive and there were so many other things… So I kind of experienced real life socialism 
… So for me it’s really hard to listen to Americans discussing socialism…simply because I had these experiences. This is not ill meaning this simply happened…
And yes now you will argue that my experiences don’t count because this was simply this special situation and not the general situation which everybody here can evaluate much better…But I can’t help it that’s my experience…
And it’s the same with my experiences in showing horses… I grew up showing horses in Germany and then I showed horses in Florida and now I am back to show horses in Germany. So I apologize for it but I do think that I do have the experiences to know what I am talking about…
And now to answer your questions… the way how I grew up, a professional was somebody who learned the trade. some were good and some were not as in every profession…
We have this ranking point system in Germany to keep the quality more equal in classes in the shows.
A professional automatically starts at a higher rank. so if he is a bad rider it might even be harder for him to get ribbons because of his profession. Otherwise Professionals ride against Amateurs…Nobody cares about it.
And the next thing is nobody cares who is giving lessons for money either… if somebody is willing to pay it’s fine whether you are professional or Amateur, as long as you declare your income to the tax department and have an insurance. Then you are fine…In fact Professionals in Germany would probably get mad if somebody who is giving a couple of lessons would be declared a professional because that would really devalue their profession…
so when I came over I was really surprised to find this weird atmosphere, people looking at each other whether he is taking money for lessons or riding horses . I really was too naive to understand it in the beginning. I only got the bigger understanding of it later on…I believe it’s a system which is very divisive and was created by some to maybe eliminate some competition…
…But it really reminded me of the way communism worked . There people observed each other and as soon as somebody showed his liking of capitalism he was reported to the STASI by his neighbors and put to jail…Exvet is a great (and sad ) example for this …
Yes I agree it is nice to have a division in classes because with YR, Open and AA there is always a chance to get a ribbon… but I think it’s a costly ribbon because it creates this almost (Gasp) socialist atmosphere…
sorry for the very long post but at least it is not completely of topic and I hope it explains why I think how I do… And sorry even if I am not directly concerned, I still cannot keep quiet about things which I do not agree with…
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So how does this miraculous fair system know how good someone is? If a professional starts at a higher rank, how did they become a professional in the first place?
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Things must be very different where you ride because I honestly don’t know anyone who goes to shows eyeballing their other ammies and looking for reasons to report them to the authorities. Most people are too busy riding their own horse.
If it’s such a big deal for you, then just ride in the open division. Problem solved.
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really???
Maybe, maybe, they were just wanting you to be safe, but I wouldn’t take it that way either. There are far more concerning unsafe riders that should be reported instead of a vest situation like that.
Make sure you wave to you Stalker Stan when you eventually meet him/her LOL!
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Sorry I overwhelmed probably everybody with the Post, because I wasnt precise enough with my statements… you are in Wellington so Christoph Koschel or Fredric Wandres are probably able to explain it better to you. They are typical German Professionals while Michael Klimke is a typical AA, he is lawyer…
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Sorry that I wasted time to try to explain it… I should have known that its useless 
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Oh yeah, it was 100% not about safety lol. It was after they had seen photos of me at the event and were trying to have me cancelled.
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