How do people get the horses that run as jumps racers in the US? I know very few people actually bred for chasers here, so what criteria do people use to identify prospects?
A lot of them would be horses that were bred as flat horses that end up not working out for that purpose. McDynamo is a flat bred horse, it just seems like all of the stamina influences in his pedigree came together to make a horse that could stay the distance of jumps races, and he has some good jumping influences in his pedigree too.
Bonita Farm Darlington MD
Sunnyside Woodbine MD
I do know that most of them are horses that didn’t do well on the flat.
So what things do experts look for in terms of race records, breeding, conformation, etc?
I also know that many of them field hunt during the off season, and that many of the race meets have amateur races and races for horses who have been “fairly” hunted. Is there any correlation between good TB field hunters and chasers?
Would like to hear from Hunters Rest, Steele Rdr, and XCountrygirl in particular with their thoughts, if they would.
Very interesting question.
To elaborate further, what/how does a horse get a chance in chasers, rather than sliding down the ranks into claimers or end up looking for a home as an OTTB?
On another note, re: Mcdynamo, in the mare line, Sea Snack is by Hard Tack by MOW, known for ability to get jumpers and chasers. Of interest though, is Sea Snacks daughter Rum Bottle Bay, who appears to be line bred to the mare Misleading.
The ones that get to me and-or my peeps (my pop, my clients, etc.) are mostly off the flat. Dr. Griggs in Kentucky, who I worked for for years, bred some at one point but mostly aims for commercial stock these days if he breeds at all.
My dad mostly gets ones with some form on the flat – used to be you could be competitive, and even win, with a flat track washout that you put a little bottom on and who might like jumping better than bull pens … but no longer. Way too much $$ to be made at the jump meets to expect to win with something without a good bit of speed.
Dr. Griggs always said you could ‘put’ the bottom on a horse, but you HAVE to start with some speed.
Heck, my dad used to win a few races with a speedy halfbred back in the day – not any more. You have to be JC registered to even run in NSA meets today.
Yes many pointers and many NSA horses hunt. Most chasers are excellent hunters – not necessarily ‘guest horses’, mind you (though many of the classy ones are!) but good, solid, sensible (enough), fast and go-ey.
No correlation, though.
The division races at Virginia point to points, however, are AIMED at that amateur-foxhunter-enthusiast type - to give them a chance to race against equally amateur riders on limited horses (must have been fairly hunted, not have won xxx # of jump races, etc.) It works well - and feeds the NSA owner/stewards/supporters from the bottom.
George Strawbridge rode races as an amateur - his Augustin Stables is all time leading $ winner in NSA history. The fact that he rode races gave him that ‘love’ of hte sport that you can’t get any other way.
Ditto my dad (Charlie Burke, pres. of Iroquois Steeplechase, steward, etc.) Ditto Dwight Hall (chief steward). The list goes on.
Excellent question. But, frankly, if a stable keeps producing jump horses from their stock, they’d, uh, keep it quiet unless they’re Augustin or Haynes’. Flat folks still look at chasers as big and slow. :o)
PS The way the flat horses won’t just slip down into oblivion at some bull ring somewhere living like a nag is that nice folks like YOU (VR, et al) TELL the owners about jump racing and its great recycling potential etc.
There is a division/place for EVERY level of horse in steeplechasing. You just have to find it.
I had 3 year end point to point champions, 2 of them were Virginia champions - they won EVERYthing on the pointing circuit but they could barely get out of their own way in NSA races. Sure, we tried them a few times NSA but how much more fun for the trainer/owner/rider to keep winning at the point to points rather than getting your head beat in by Augustin et al at the sanctioned meets.
Even Orpington, a Gill Johnston NSA level horse that washed out for some reason, looks like he’s found ‘his’ place at the junior racing level!
Room for everybody. Totally wonderful recycle of tb horses.
When you say “Form on the flat”, what do you mean? Horse who ran at stakes level? Allowance level? Made it past their conditions? Horses who won several races, even though those races weren’t what they were bred for? I mean horses with stamina blood who were run in sprint races and still managed to win.
What sort of race record would interest someone like you, Hunter’s Rest? Do you look for particular things in pedigrees?
http://www.nationalsteeplechase.com/index.html
All steeplechasers are Thoroughbreds whose lineage must be proven with official Jockey Club registration papers. Horses can begin steeplechase careers at age 3.
Most steeplechasers competed or still compete on the flat. The ideal steeplechaser has speed, stamina, smarts and enough athletic ability to run and jump at the same time.
Steeplechase trainers are based throughout the Eastern half of the United States, with most concentrated in the Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia area… Almost all trainers are based on private farms, where horses enjoy the outdoors while also exercising and working toward their next racing date. €Steeplechase horses last. It is not unusual to see steeplechase horses compete until age 10 and beyond. Ninepins won the 1999 Grand National at age 12.
Steeplechase horses typically run six to 10 times in a year. The season features no racing in January and February, plus a light summer schedule assuring horses of lengthy vacations. Most ³down time² is spent outdoors in fields. A steeplechase horse in the off-season is often dirty, hairy and happy.
After their steeplechase careers end, horses often become foxhunters, show horses or simply pleasure rides for their owners or trainers. Five-time U.S… champion and career earnings leader Lonesome Glory retired at the end of the 1999 season at age 11, and began a career as a full-time foxhunter.
[QUOTE=Equibrit;3981801]
http://www.nationalsteeplechase.com/index.html
All steeplechasers are Thoroughbreds whose lineage must be proven with official Jockey Club registration papers. [/QUOTE]
Stupid rule. By that standard some of the finest chasers and hurdlers of the last 20 years couldn’t have run in NSA sanctioned races.
I galloped quite a few mediocre flat horses that went on to become good jumpers. I remember being asked to talk to a very prominent trainer about a particular horse when he called. The horse was by far one of the most heartless animals I’d ever ridden, yet went on to be an excellent mount for a Jr! So you never know!
There is a farm in Va that I thought bred specifically for Chasers mostly, the name escapes me at the moment. Begins with a K…
What’s the average day rate for steeplchase trainers vs. flat trainers? For my flat horses, I pay $75/day for breaking/starting in Ocala. Then it jumps to about $95/day once they are at the track (in KY). Are most steeplechase trainers more or less?
Answered my own question, LOL…
Here is a link to an article about Kinross Farm in Virginia…
http://www.marylandthoroughbred.com/midatlantic/current/lead_article04/sept.htm
Duuuh. 
I was hoping for some specifics from the people here who DO chasing, instead of a first grade introduction. :yes:
Drvm, it does seem to be a stupid rule. The “real” chasing countries don’t follow it, as France, Britain and Ireland all let part breds run. Wonder where the rule came from in the first place, since if Hunter’s Rest’s dad ran a part bred it can’t have been around for too many years?
Doesn’t Mede Cahaba–Mignon Smith–mostly breed for chasing? Does Kinross breed? Strawbridge?
Viney, read the article I posted… it should answer most of your questions, or at least some of them!
I looked up the horses mentioned in the Kinross article, and their chasers have very different pedigrees from the ordinary run of race horses–except for Northern Dancer. Their pedigrees are very much what one would want to find in TB sport horses. And they are also beautifully bred for anything but dirt sprints. The sad thing is that many horses with this kind of breeding aren’t making it on the flat or dirt, and they are the ones that would find useful second careers in chasing.
I think Cetewayo would be a superb chaser sire on paper. I wonder if anyone is thinking of him or his for jumps racing.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;3982070]
I looked up the horses mentioned in the Kinross article, and their chasers have very different pedigrees from the ordinary run of race horses–except for Northern Dancer. Their pedigrees are very much what one would want to find in TB sport horses. :)[/QUOTE]
You delved in deeper than I did! But I’m not surprised at what you found.
The flat horses turned Chaser’s that I’ve galloped all had one thing in common, athleticism… I’ve also galloped some very nice and well bred flat horses that I don’t think could have jumped a stick.
Some time back, I know lots of Chilean horses were being imported (I’m going to space on the sire’s name) just for jump racing. Joe Rogers was among those who did that. And long, long ago, Bel Esprit, owned by Tommy Moffett and trained by Gordon Erricker, was a NZ bred.
And on that note Beverley, I know that the NZ TB’s are quite popular with the Eventing crowd.
Meant to add, and forgot- Md Hunt Cup and English Grand National winner Ben Nevis was a slow horse (of undistinguished breeding?) at Charlestown before he found his niche. I once hunted a half sister of his, in MD in the early 70s, she had been an equally slow Charlestown graduate but boy was she an out of this world fun ride for hunting! I don’t think she ever raced over fences.
