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American Riding Instructors Association

Dressage
#121

Seems eminently reasonable to me. A certificate can be desirable (though not necessary), and certainly by itself is not sufficient. You gotta know what you’re getting.:yes:

It is true as someone I know quite well PM’ed me the other day, in effect, that I probably have little personal appreciation for just what turkeys “out there” hang up a shingle and offer lessons for pay with no real idea of what they’re about, or a clue about how to teach.

Upon reflection, I’m sure she’s correct.

Jeannette also posted about insurance advantages for the instructor, a factor previously not in the mix and definitely worthy of inclusion. Some insurance companies evidently esteem at least some credentials, and whenever somebody backs their opinion up by taking a financial risk, that does get my attention.:yes:

Perhaps I had an ‘unfair advantage’ over the average uninformed consumer wannabe rider in that I actually knew the people with whom I came to be working as they tried to get some riding capacity into my thick head and insensate body, years before they actually did so. What’s more – she didn’t add this, but it’s true – I had feedback in the meantime about them from others whose opinions I esteemed, as well as the benefit of my own eyes and ears once I actually started paying attention to what people actually were doing atop the horses.:yes:
(I’ll even go so far as to acknowledge that it helped they were generally very pleasant toward me before I began taking lessons from them. In this connection, see my far earlier posts: I refuse to be abused for long by anyone, even someone who seemingly credibly might claim the ability to teach me to spin straw into gold. [Those taking crap from certain supercilious, smug BNT’s, take note and decide whether you really receive fair value for submitting to degradation, harrassment and gratuitous abuse. BTW, canyonoak, from what I’ve been told by those far more experienced than I am, this keeps the thread relevant to the forum. :winkgrin:])

So I take that sound point I mention which wasn’t explicitly posted here – or if it had been, I missed it – but respectfully reiterate that it always remains the obligation of everyone to know just what they are buying and with whom they are dealing before they plop down cash and sign on.

Even the very best of certificates (for example, any Duke University credential for anything:)) doesn’t possess inherent credibility. Discovering that underlying basis and validity always remains the obligation of the observer. :yes:

#122

Right back atcha. :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t like to be confused. Granted, there are those who opine that I spend my life that way. Nevertheless, I get confused when someone contradicts him/herself. Naturally, to alleviate my confusion, I ask questions. When I’m met with answers, I retreat. I’ve not gotten answers. Thus, no retreat.

Hope that helps. :cool:

#123

Jeanette - congratulations on your certification and perfect score. Well done. :slight_smile:

And, thank you for answering my questions. Pity SapeloApp and Fuelster Farm couldn’t have been as forthcoming - this thread would have been a lot shorter. :smiley:

So - it’s true - there’s no in-person teaching or riding demonstration. That’s what I wanted to know. tThanks again. :cool:

#124

ESG - I haven’t gone through the process yet, so I do not have the same capacity for providing the same answers that Jeanette has. That said, it was stated, numerous times at the beginning of this discussion, that there is not in person riding or demonstration with ARIA at this time, but that it is limited to video.

Please also realize that as a busy working woman in the process of writing a business plan and doing research regarding the equine industry market, facility layout, design and cost analysis, I am not on the discussion boards every day, so when I find myself with free time, I look and reply.

My frustration now is that you claim others evade your questions, yet I have not seen a response to the query that I posted.

#125

Your query must have gotten lost amongst the detritus of your response. But that’s not important. What did you want to know?

#126

Does the fact that I am going for certification negate my accomplishments in your opinion?

#127

Of course not. One has nothing to do with the other - that’s my whole point. If certification were a true indicator of expertise, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. :cool:

#128

Certification is, in fact, quite often an indicator of expertise. Look at car mechanics, network engineers, any technical profession… And yes, to me there are lots of technical aspects to riding.

You may think you know it all, or consider yourself a good instructor. Fact of the matter is that most of us tend to have a much higher opinion of our abilities than is warranted.

To be so aggressive in putting down a certification procedure to me only means one thing… Somebody is deathly afraid of tests and/or having their abilities questioned. So there probably is a reason for it… :slight_smile:

#129

True, although there are a few exceptions who can be pretty objective, and some who are harsher self-critics than and third party ever might be.

To your point I would add that people tend to have a much greater sense of the injury we have suffered when something bad happens to us. Hence judges and law instead of revenge and blood feuds.

To be so aggressive in putting down a certification procedure to me only means one thing… Somebody is deathly afraid of tests and/or having their abilities questioned. So there probably is a reason for it… :slight_smile:

You guys sure seem to have fun mixing personal pokes with the discussion. :yes:

But ‘psychologizing’ somebody instead of dealing with the matter on the table really is not very productive.

In hopes of heading off a distracting tit-for-tat sidebar, I’ll take the liberty of refuting your assertion by using myself as an example. I’m not going to list out the particulars, but over the years I have taken more bloody examinations than I can count to generally satisfactory outcome (though I outright flunked a Calc II exam ~36 years ago:o), and I remain skeptical about reading a lot into any particular certification when the underlying basis is a mystery.

(When General Motors certifies a mechanic in working with some aspect of General Motors vehicles, I think the body of knowledge is sufficiently narrow and the certifying authority sufficiently credible for that body of knowledge, that it probably means something, though not necessarily that the mechanic will do a better job on your vehicle than someone not so certified, only that the mechanic is less likely to screw up than before taking the GM training course and getting the certificate.)

#130

Let’s look at the long-term big picture

[QUOTE=ESG;2197490]
Until ARIA, USDF and USHJA come up with a certification that truly tests the knowledge and expertise of its candidates, they will continue to ignored by those of us that want any certification to actually mean something. :cool:[/QUOTE]

We have multiple certification programs in the US. None are perfect. They have to have some participation to stay in business. Do they

A) make it so hard (and therefore expensive) to get the certification that very well-established trainers will honor the certification? (Note I said ‘honor’, not actually ‘do’ - as established trainers they have no real financial interest in doing so.)

or do they B) focus more on the entry-level professional who would find the certification helpful in getting business?

There will always be the leaders who see the big picture and put themselves through a certification process even though they don’t ‘need’ it. But there are many more who will theoretically agree that certification is a good thing, then fail to find one that meets their standards.

Here’s the long view: every single instructor in the US should get certified by some organization. Period. Over time, having that much business - a ‘mandate’ if you will - will allow certification to ‘grow up’ in the US to meet most everyone’s standards - from the most excellent, safe and caring up-down instructor who’s only been riding for four years, to the David O’Connors and George Morrises among us.

Corollary thought - if you don’t like what’s happening with a particular group, raise your hand to serve on a committee and do something about fixing it. Or at least write a letter.

#131

We’re not talking about auto mechanics, siegi. But, you already know that.

You may think you know it all, or consider yourself a good instructor. Fact of the matter is that most of us tend to have a much higher opinion of our abilities than is warranted.

Please show me where I wrote that I think I know it all. For that matter, show me where I said I know anything. :stuck_out_tongue:

To be so aggressive in putting down a certification procedure to me only means one thing… Somebody is deathly afraid of tests and/or having their abilities questioned. So there probably is a reason for it… :slight_smile:

And to arbitrarily champion a certification process simply because it is a certification process, is stupid. And there’s probably a reason for that, too. :cool:

#132

Adamantane - A certified mechanic has much better job prospects than his/her non-certified counterpart.

Some posts ago you wrote something to the effect that you couldn’t believe that there were so many unqualified riding instructors out there. I am here to tell you that there are in fact way too many of them, and that is why certification would be a nice way of distinguishing between the somewhat knowledgable and the deluded.

And no, I don’t enjoy “mixing personal pokes with the discussion” - there is just something about ESG’s abbrasiveness and having to have the last word that brings out the worst in me. :slight_smile:

Folks that want to make a living educating/training the unwashed masses should have the education to do so.

#133

I agree with that. A Buick dealership who needs somebody to do transmission work, for example, knows exactly what was the training of a mechanic who has been GM certified to work on Buick transmissions. The key there is that the customer [in your example, the car dealership] knows precisely what the certification represents and who provided it. The dealership knows that for their purposes, the individual in question (assuming he comes to work every day, isn’t drunk or stoned, and doesn’t have an impossible personality), has been trained to do exactly what they need to have done and has demonstrated it to the satisfaction of his GM trainers. Not quite the same situation with the customers of horse trainers, for all the reasons noted.

Some posts ago you wrote something to the effect that you couldn’t believe that there were so many unqualified riding instructors out there. I am here to tell you that there are in fact way too many of them, and that is why certification would be a nice way of distinguishing between the somewhat knowledgable and the deluded.

I was indeed surprised that credible people in the business have noticed a lot of others whose teaching practices are less than ideal. I would have thought bad outcomes and word of mouth would have shaken out the duds. In any event, it all comes back to caveat emptor again, both with the teacher and, if the teacher is certified, the certifying organization, what it is certifying, and how that is determined.

And no, I don’t enjoy “mixing personal pokes with the discussion” - there is just something about ESG’s abbrasiveness and having to have the last word that brings out the worst in me. :slight_smile:

I wasn’t singling out anybody’s needling in particular, but rather everybody’s needling – when they do it – in general. I’m willing to stipulate that you and ESG, for example, if you really wished to, no holds barred, probably could raise enough dust to nearly get the lurkers banned.:wink: But I think there’s little point to that.

On another thread in a totally different context I repeated some wisdom once provided to me that whenever there are chronic ‘communication failures’ the process really is a surrogate for a power struggle. In this case, I hope it is a benevolent power struggle, but probably the discussion has at times taken a back seat to the sparring. The good news is that you both likely will never be pastured together, so there’s no need to determine the winner. I’m just glad I’d likely not find myself in the way while you both are settling the herd dynamics.:lol:

Folks that want to make a living educating/training the unwashed masses should have the education to do so.

We’ve never had any quarrel on that point. :no: I have always believed that anybody who wants to sell services (even to well-scrubbed aristocrats:lol:) needs to know the business well and to give fair value. How the person goes about being educated often can take many forms. All that really matters to the customer is the cumulative quality of the resulting ‘product,’ irrespective of the details of educational process.

#134

[QUOTE=Adamantane;2228112]
All that really matters to the customer is the cumulative quality of the resulting ‘product,’ irrespective of the details of educational process.[/QUOTE]

Oh dear- I take huge issue with this. I am of course speaking about training very valuable horses- animals that pretty much don’t have a voice or a choice- and I am talking about progressive - positive training for horse and rider. I beg to differ that a solid foundation of a core education and the knowledge in theory and practice of what it is to train a horse and a rider…is hugely important to me. I might forfeit formal theoretic education in lieu of many years (five or more) with an established organization, such as the Holsteiner Verband, the Verband of Hannoverian Riding horses etc…something VERY formal and well established.- so there is no doubt about the core education. Sadly this country does not offer anything that comes half way close to that…and therefore - I rather resort to those that have put in the time/sweat and tears- to really learn from the bottom up- then to those who pretend, buy a schoolmaster and earn their goldmedal and think they can train a horse…OMG- what are you thinking???

#135

Well said! Any LEGIT trainer/instructor certification should have sections on riding and teaching ability, judged in person.

~Barbara

#136

“On another thread in a totally different context I repeated some wisdom once provided to me that whenever there are chronic ‘communication failures’ the process really is a surrogate for a power struggle.”

Ok, now who is doing the “psychologizing”?

“In any event, it all comes back to caveat emptor again, both with the teacher and, if the teacher is certified, the certifying organization, what it is certifying, and how that is determined.”

Why should the onus for caveat emptor be on the kids and folks that know nothing about riding or experience? When you have your appendix taken out, do you expect your surgeon to have the qualifications to do a good job? Bad teaching can and does result in accidents, some of them with bad outcomes. So, do we just hope that the instructor has enough insurance to cover it instead of asking for qualifications beforehand in order to PRECLUDE the bad things?

And I know this is not specifically about the certification mentioned by the OP, but about certification of riding instructors/trainers in general, but I still think it’s a subject that needs to be addressed.

#137

What Siegi asked about was selling services to the unwashed masses.

What I said was:

I have always believed that anybody who wants to sell services (even to well-scrubbed aristocrats:lol:) needs to know the business well and to give fair value. How the person goes about being educated often can take many forms. All that really matters to the customer is the cumulative quality of the resulting ‘product,’ irrespective of the details of educational process.

Here, I was speaking in general terms, about the world at large, but also in the narrower sense, on the thread topic of riding instruction primarily for beginners or youngsters (as opposed to the training of horses, although I believe it also applies there).

Perhaps my use of ‘the business’ here was ambiguous. I didn’t mean the commercial aspects, I meant the whole universe of horse and riding-related knowledge, i.e., education. If my using an imprecise term created confusion, I apologize. I thought “details of the educational process” made my intent clear.

It that particular word was not a source of misunderstanding, then it sounds as if we may be back to the question of more than one right way to do things, and I’m happy to revisit that.

Your example of someone who shortcuts his or her education by purchasing a high level horse ‘made’ by others, does well in competition in spite of marginal preparation and then thinks they can sell their services as a trainer of horses and riders may have some example in the real world, but for the discussion at hand, seems like a bit of a straw man. Where did I or anyone else posting to this thread ever state agreement with that sad notion?:confused:

#138

Sabine,

I’m getting to the conclusion that this is a cultural thing…
In Germany people that want to become riding instructors/horse trainers go to school and learn their trade (which results in certification). You never hear of riders taking legal action agains their teachers.

In the US there is very little certification, and what little there is is derided as being stupid and non-sensical. In the US there are also plenty of law-suits because a horse kicked somebody or a student fell off.

Who benefits?
In Germany - the students do because they learn how to ride well.

In the US - the insurance companies and the legal profession.

Stupid me, why would I even suggest a certification program in the US?

#139

Guilty as charged, your Honor. :lol: With explanation: We were at that point talking about you and ESG getting under one another’s skins at times, so looking for a reason wasn’t unreasonable. But explanation or not, it is a seductive trap into which we all easily can and do fall.:yes:

“In any event, it all comes back to caveat emptor again, both with the teacher and, if the teacher is certified, the certifying organization, what it is certifying, and how that is determined.”

[quote]Why should the onus for caveat emptor be on the kids and folks that know nothing about riding or experience? When you have your appendix taken out, do you expect your surgeon to have the qualifications to do a good job?

[/quote]

The onus of being responsible for the consequences of decisions falls on whoever makes decisions. It’s part of life. I take shortcuts substituting others’ judgment for my own at my own peril, or at very least with my eyes wide open. You do, too.

What other rational process is there?

Of course I expect my surgeon to have the qualifications to do the job. But qualifications and pieces of paper are not equivalent. Unless I have confidence in my own personal assessment, and, if I care to go beyond that, confidence in whatever entity makes representations about the person, I should hold back until I am satisfied.

Long long ago and far far away I once represented a pharmaceutical company and called on physicians, hospitals and pharmacies. Every last one of these had pieces of paper plastered all over their walls. Some people and places I would unhesitatingly have entrusted with my life. Others, with nothing beyond (perhaps) a hangnail.

Bad teaching can and does result in accidents, some of them with bad outcomes. So, do we just hope that the instructor has enough insurance to cover it instead of asking for qualifications beforehand in order to PRECLUDE the bad things?

And I know this is not specifically about the certification mentioned by the OP, but about certification of riding instructors/trainers in general, but I still think it’s a subject that needs to be addressed.

It is a subject that needs to be addressed.

No, the choice is not limited between either flying blindly or relying on pieces of paper whose meaning you do not know. Yes, those are two possibilities, but they are both dangerous, and both can be equally dangerous. Being lulled into a false sense of security can be very dangerous.

I am not opposed to certification, I just take pieces of paper on the wall with a shaker of salt. (Certain “Certified Financial Planners” come to mind, a minefield through which no one should walk.)

When I first came to this thread, I had no idea what the ARIA piece of paper hanging on my riding instructor’s tack room wall meant. Now I do, so its been an educational thread. But I’ve learned it means something slightly different than what I ‘sort of felt’ that it meant. I didn’t need to know that she could ride well. I’d seen that for some years and had heard others know were knowledgeable comment favorably on it as well. After taking a few lessons from her, I certainly had no doubts about both her capacity and style as a teacher. [If she reads all this, a discount on my next lesson wouldn’t be out of order…:winkgrin:.]

But these two examples illustrate my point. Unless you as a consumer know what the certificate actually represents (which may be far different from what it purports to represent, certainly in the case of many ‘CFP’s’ a few years ago), what do you make of it? Those who relied on ‘CFP’s’ some years back weren’t always very happy campers, so such things can even provide a dangerous false sense of security.

And this leads to a positive proposal to help address the very legitimate question of ‘what’s a would be consumer to do?’

In addition to asking questions, talking to others and being engaged in the process, a consumer could benefit from knowing exactly what a third party certification might mean.

It would be a service to the organizations, a service to those who hold their certificates, and a great service to the public at large if ARIA and other organizations who offer certificates, could distribute informative brochures that describe what their certifications mean and what the requirements for obtaining them are and who did the evaluation, to be provided by those who have been certified to would-be clients.

At least then somebody walking in from the street would have some sense of what the piece of paper on the wall represents. To be sure, this is no substitute for all the other responsibilities of being a consumer, but it would be a definite step forward.

How can this valuable enhancement be brought about? Any ideas?

(And some thought that this thread was all but played out…)

#140

ARIA has done that, Adamatane. It’s called a web site. http://www.riding-instructor.com . Complete with a listing of those certified, as well as discussion on what it takes to achieve certification.

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