American Thoroughbred not good enough?!

[Cumano]

Beowulf, I agree with you. And I also agree with your previous post that some straight TB continue to have results at higher level eventing. Sometime, in the heat of the argument, we can unintentionaly cut corners. In fact, you summarized better than I could my point. I think the current success is in the combination of TB and WB, and not the dillution of the WB with the TB. I also tried to make the point that the current success of horses with blood do not imply that, based on the breeding decisions we have to make today, and with the horses we are working with in 2016, more blood will necessarly means better horses.

As for the missquotes you refere to, I think I was quoting other posters and not you.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8887029]
Beowulf, I agree with you. And I also agree with your previous post that some straight TB continue to have results at higher level eventing. Sometime, in the heat of the argument, we can unintentionaly cut corners. In fact, you summarized better than I could my point. I think the current success is in the combination of TB and WB, and not the dillution of the WB with the TB. I also tried to make the point that the current success of horses with blood do not imply that, based on the breeding decisions we have to make today, and with the horses we are working with in 2016, more blood will necessarly means better horses.

As for the missquotes you refere to, I think I was quoting other posters and not you.[/QUOTE]
It certainly will be interesting to see what type of horse you need as the sport evolves.

If it continues the trend of shorter distances, more efforts (read: Wellyworld Eventing Showcase type), I do think that breeders can carefully and intelligently pair WBs to keep the traits needed without requiring infusion of TB blood.

I for one don’t hope to see eventing go that way, and much prefer the sport in its long-format days to what the Wellington Eventing Showcase envisioned. My ideal horse is a “crossbred” (as you referred to it), btw. In simple terms, the best of both worlds if you ask me.

[vineyridge]

Back to the original topic. I just got Edward Bowen’s book on TB stallions called Dynasties. The book itself has little that is “new”, but the foreword is by William H. Farish, the very successful owner of Lane’s End TB breeding farm in Kentucky. He said something that I think bears repeating. It is/was his opinion in 2000 that European bred turf milers are the equivalent of the American classic horse–the 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 and up horses–because of the surfaces they are bred to run on. He believes that importing a brilliant European miler adds more stamina than the American bred miler, enough so they will excel at American classic distances.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8886896]
Bold mine, as this is correct: if you look at the pedigrees of horses consistently finishing UL events you will find the bolded is very true.

It is erroneous to think that a 3/4 TB is the same as a horse that is 75% blood. You can have a high blood% horse that still does not have the gallop, heart, or stamina needed for the sport. Breeding the blood% ‘up’ is the wrong way of going about this (especially if you look at global leaderboards for what/who is winning UL eventing), as you have no definitive way to isolate all of the traits needed provided by TBs… The blood% is no guarantee that the horse has all of the TB traits needed - you can have a very high-blooded WB that has absolutely no TB attributes. A good and well known example is RF Demeter, who is nearly 50% blood (interesting seeing Acatenango xx ) but does not IMHO have the stamina needed to consistently finish.

For instance, one of the more successful breeders for eventing is William Micklem. He isn’t taking high blood WBs and breeding them together to produce high-blooded offspring - he is breeding directly to TBs… and producing horses that have stayed at the top of the sport for a long time. His horses are almost consistently nearly-full TB, with some Irish Draught blood as well.

Of course, what would he know?[/QUOTE]

Interesting post! I follow this thread because right now I am restarting a very interesting young mare. She is bred exactly in a way you don’t like… She is more than 50% TB although there is no TB in the first 2 Generations. But of course I am not interested in breeding eventers…

Her Great Grandfather was a Derbywinner (I think thats something, how many Derbywinners were used for breeding Warmbloods).

Her Grandfather on her sires side was Worldchampion of the Young Dressage horses and her motherline produced 2 international GP Dressage horses. one of them was a brother to her mother and the other one who won a World cup Qualifier was out of the full sister to her Grandmother.
So in a way there are 2 worlds combined in that horse. World class Racing and World class Dressage. Her mother was kind of an experiment for me and she is the product of that experiment. She looks like a TB but has the movement of a Warmblood. And additionally she has a beautiful mind. Always motivated to do something with the rider.

So some here might only discuss about possibilities, but I went ahead and bred (well I did not really breed her, I bought her mother in foal with her) a horse like this.
I am very excited about her and how she will develope. She is a little different then my other horses which are more the typical Warmblood. So I guess although she is not a direct TB cross some traits of a TB are still existent…

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8886267]
Elles - to answer your question about TBs being different from continent to continent…

My short answer, that should be long and complicated, is that yes, there can be a different phenotype based on the region’s race-type.

In America, the most popular races are dirt. You get small clusters of grass/chasing (upper West Coast, mid-East Coast). The influence is regional, naturally - I find consistently (but not always) that there is a wider divergence of types in dirt than in grass; dirt runs the gamut from tall and rangy to small and compact - where I’ve found the preponderance of certain ‘timber lines’ in certain regions makes for a more consistent type.

In NZ, one has to consider the shuttling stallions - but usually the mare family stays so you have some very, very old lines crop up closer than one might expect in the US. Same with AUS; so the type can be very different. There is also the (and I use this term loosely) ‘genetic bottlenecking’ effect - both NZ and AUS are very isolated, so the gene pool is smaller in these continents than in US or Canada. Those that I cared for that were imported were more similar to the grass/stayer types you see in the WC/EC than their dirt cousins. Usually huge shoulders, looong necks across the board. They are closer to the ‘old type’ of TB - think classic thoroughbreds like Tudor Minstrel, Noholme, etc.

I think in Germany, the TBs are closer to our grass-type horses than we realize.

It’s not really the country that makes the difference IMHO, but the type of races - Europe simply doesn’t have as many dirt, it’s almost all turf and steeple chasing… so the type is very different. The shuttling of successful stallions does add to the mix so you will find some US lines in Europe. The location the horse was born shouldn’t really matter, but what should matter is the individual and his/her type/conformation.

A good example this sneakily misleading type is Nijinksy - he is CAN bred but made an incredible name for himself in Europe. He has get in every hemisphere and like their sire some of them are chameleons that do equally well on dirt or turf. Because he was shuttled around the world he shows up with some frequency in IRE, GB, FR, US, CAN and even NZ pedigrees.

That being said I think you can find a good TB in any of these continents as the pool is very mixed and many of them share similar recent ancestry.[/QUOTE]

“In America, the most popular races are dirt”

I don’t think it is fair nor correct to say “most popular”. There are far more races carded on dirt because of logistics, they way racing evolved in this country. Large stadium venues in major metropolitan areas. Turf courses couldn’t hold up to 8 races a day, 5 days a week. It would have been way too expensive to acquire enough land to build and maintain multiple turf courses. Pretty sure Belmont is the only venue in this country that has 2 turf courses.

In England and Ireland etc the race meets only stay at any one venue for a couple of days at best. At most venues there are multiple turf courses of various layouts.

I would guess around 1/3 of the horses in training are turf horses. The majority of horses that run over jumps started on and were usually decent winners on dirt. Though we look for a “type” when comes to Timber horses good ones have come in all shapes and sizes. Pedigrees also many very good Timber horses have come from “sprinter” type pedigrees.

Nijinsky was a Canadian bred from one of the few crops Northern Dancer had the brief time he stood there. He won the English “Triple Crown” which put him and Vincent O’Brien on the map. He was not a typical Northern Dancer. Stood well over 16 hands, ND stood 15.2. He was “longer and leaner”, his croup “fell off” rather sharply. Where as most ND had a more rounded, pleasing hind end. Nijinsky was not much of a sire of sires. Many of his sons went to stud but few made their mark. He was a very good broodmare sire and that is were his name is seen more often than not. On the distaff side of things.

You lost me a little in this paragraph Nijinsky was not a “shuttle sire” if that is what you were trying to say. That was not in vogue while he was still an active stallion. He stood his entire life at Claiborne and they do not shuttle stallions.

I wouldn’t say The Minstrel was “old type” at all maybe if one only saw him latter in age. I saw him a lot we owned/managed a share in him. Bred to him for many years. Saw lots of foal by him from many different mares, blood and type.

This is just my observations and opinion but I was how I made my living for many years and was paid pretty well for them.

I have been racing in just about every major racing jurisdiction and some minor ones in the world. Along with many breeding, stud farms. By and large I wouldn’t say that one country had that much if any of a “type” different than what I see in the US or any other country. The most difference I would say are some of the broodmares. Especially in New Zealand and Argentina

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8886844]
Thank you for your non-vote of confidence. Pity you are now ‘here’ and have forfeited your ability to evolve.
You might want to take a look at your own WBFSH database of BREEDERS.

The records are full of blanks, just as ‘ours’ are. I hope in future this will change for everyone.[/QUOTE]

This post makes absolutely no sense. “You are now here” ? “records are full of blanks” ? I am convinced you don’t know what you are tallking about.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8886807]
I would hazard to say that most Sporthorse mares in Europe used for breeding have never seen a competition ring. They appear to be selected for stud based on the breeding production of their damline, their mature inspection scores (conformation and gaits and free jumping).

This would be about like selecting broodmare prospects at Fasig-tiptons and putting them immediately into the mareband.

What is worse, is that now it appears the Colts (stud prospects) are being given points based on ‘potential’ breeding worth on top of actual inspection performance values. Some never compete. The future will tell if this is a viable theory for selection of breeding Sporthorses.

Picking TB colts by their yearlng sale price and breeze times has not often ‘paid off’ for breeders.

I can understand the difficulty in waiting for an 8 year old’s performance career to see if there is GP potential, though. A lot of time and $$ input without return.[/QUOTE]

“I would hazard to say that most Sporthorse mares in Europe used for breeding have never seen a competition ring”

A lot of the very best TB broodmares never saw a racecourse. Quite a few maybe won 1 race if they won any. But by large they did have a quality family, Blood underneath them. I was not saying that the dam of a very good Sport horse should/has to have been one of the best in competition.

What I was saying is if I was going shopping for a Sport horse prospect I would like to know as much about the dam and her family as possible. Who she has been bred to and what were the results of those mattings. Who raised them, trained them rode them etc. What did her 2nd and 3rd dams produce. In short why was she selected.

“This would be about like selecting broodmare prospects at Fasig-Tipton and putting them immediately into the mare band”

I assume you mean as a yearling? Most are bought with the idea of racing. No by and large they are not “immediately” put into the broodmare band. But that’s what will happen in 6-12 months if they don’t show much ability. Especially if they are well bred. Breeders have found it is better to sell out of an “unraced” mare than a “non-winner”. A well bred mare is not going to be entered in low level claiming racing. This is based on buyer’s “perception”.

Some of us have and do buy well bred yearling fillies with “issues” that keep their selling price low with no intention of racing them. They are bought as broodmare prospects. Especially if we know of a unraced but highly thought of half sibling that is in training but has yet to start.

If I was a serous Sport horse breeder and I saw a young horse and or heard of a very promising one just staring out in competition. I would beat the bushes to find a half/full sister or something closely related. Easy to do with TBs but seems to be much more difficult with Sport horses.

"Picking TB colts by their yearling sale price and breeze times has not often ‘paid off’ for breeders."

Not sure what you mean by this. If they look the part and have a pedigree it usually pays off for the breeder. Not always for the buyer. But statistically horses with quality pedigree and looks that bring top dollar win at the highest level than those that don’t. There is no other breed in the world with the volumes of “statistics” at any one’s finger tips than TBs. Available to both breeders and buyers.

[EventerAJ]

Just want to say thank you, Gumtree, for your posts here. Always enjoy reading them and you bring a huge depth of knowledge and experience to the discussion.

[Linny]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8886081]
WB breeding is very much “mare line” oriented. The importance, not only of the dame, but of the whole mare line is the corner stone of a good quality breeding program. As for the relevant information, it is available for those who want to search. However, as mentionned before, I think it was by Vineyridge, it is not as centralized as it seems to be with the TB organization. You must know where to look. Generally, breeders will be proud of their mare lines, and will be the first one to put it forward.

Also, maybe the information is not presented in the same form as with the TB industry. Again I may be wrong, but TB breeders seems to work a lot with statistical datas, and information available seems to be presented a lot as statistics. How many products produced by line X bred to line Z, how many groupe 1 winners, better on short distance or long distance etc…[/QUOTE]

Thoroughbred registries (American Jockey Club and those abroad) and breeders are interested in racing stats and there are stats by the thousands. Information is centralized through Equibase and the Jockey Club’s pedigree data. If a horse races in a sanctioned event, his identity is verified, all information about him is recorded and his exact result (finished 3rd, beaten 1.25 lengths behind the winner, his running time was 1:23.38 seconds for 7 furlongs) is stored. As a result his sire and dam’s records change, one more “in the money” finish etc.
At least in the US, horses of “unknown” parentage are shown all the time. In the lower levels many grade horses really are just that. OTOH, at upper levels, many “imported X’s of unknown parentage” are in fact horse’s who parentage is or was known but are not currently on record with the USEF. Thus tracking the most successful parentage of sport horses (particularly in hunters) is very difficult.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I’ve been reading through this thread… Which has a whole lot going on.

A few key takeaways I am getting from different voices on this thread with respect to the use of Thoroughbreds in Sport Horse breeding are that Americans and Europeans approach the issue very differently for a number of reasons.

An undisputed fact of successful sporthorse breeding is the importance of quality mare lines, known for producing performers. Interestingly, some of the folks on this forum who breed Thoroughbreds for racing here in America seem to echo the sentiment of European Warmblood breeders that knowing a mare line well, knowing what it produces and what lines it crosses best with, is key to successful breeding. And amateur sport horse breeders, or people interested in analyzing breeding and pedigrees chatting here on these forums are just not paying enough attention to mare lines.

Also, undisputed fact is that “judicious” addition of blood periodically in sport horse/warmblood breeding programs has been very successful historically. I use the term blood, because I think the historic contribution of anglo Arabs - stallions like Ramzes, Inschallah, and Matcho in particular - merits being considered when discussing the importance of “blood” and how it has influenced and improved warmbloods and sporthorses over multiple generations.

I think I also saw a few folks speak up politely criticizing the tendency for some of us (I know I do this) to routinely research stallions, and start looking at pedigrees and zeroing in on particular thoroughbred names 4 or 5 generations back. Rather than analyzing in terms of what a given mare line is known for producing, and looking at performance - especially Grand Prix or 4 star level performance at eventing - in the first three generations.

So with all this discussion of TBs/blood in sporthorse breeding, importance of mare lines, looking for Grand Prix or 4 star performers close up in a pedigree rather than just looking further back for great old TB names, etc, I thought I would link to one stallion currently standing in Europe. He’s available via frozen to NA breeders, but apparently not widely used. Just for the sake of discussion. I guess that makes me guilty of looking at yet another stallion and analyzing the pedigree like crazy - but I thought he would be interesting to bring up.

Bonaparte N AA. He’s Anglo Arab - so all blood. Being used for Warmblood breeding and approved for most stud books. I’m sort of curious as to what others weighing in on this thread think of him.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bonaparte+n+aa
http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/bonaparte.shtml

And a link to a site with a decent confirmation picture of him

http://www.stall-koehlbrandt.de/html/hengst_bonaparte.html

What I find particularly interesting is his mare line - goes to the TB mare Marchenfee, who was a German steeplechaser, and Very successful broodmare. What’s unique is the cross duplicate of this TB mare 3x2. Bonapartes dam, Marina, a daughter of Marchenfee, produced 2 other approved stallion sons, also high level jumpers. At the same time, if you look back in 4th and 5th generation, You find Hill Hawk and Sir Ivor - both awesome TB names for sport. His Arabian and Shagya blood is well known, so I won’t further complicate things by talking about that.

To my novice eye - this is an interesting addition of TB blood to warmblood programs via a stallion approved by most stud books, who was so strongly linebred to a TB mare. I’m curious if he has daughters who have produced anything yet.

Just thought it would be interesting to throw this particular horse and pedigree in to this discussion.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=Virginia Horse Mom;8887575]
I’ve been reading through this thread… Which has a whole lot going on.

A few key takeaways I am getting from different voices on this thread with respect to the use of Thoroughbreds in Sport Horse breeding are that Americans and Europeans approach the issue very differently for a number of reasons.

An undisputed fact of successful sporthorse breeding is the importance of quality mare lines, known for producing performers. Interestingly, some of the folks on this forum who breed Thoroughbreds for racing here in America seem to echo the sentiment of European Warmblood breeders that knowing a mare line well, knowing what it produces and what lines it crosses best with, is key to successful breeding. And amateur sport horse breeders, or people interested in analyzing breeding and pedigrees chatting here on these forums are just not paying enough attention to mare lines.

Also, undisputed fact is that “judicious” addition of blood periodically in sport horse/warmblood breeding programs has been very successful historically. I use the term blood, because I think the historic contribution of anglo Arabs - stallions like Ramzes, Inschallah, and Matcho in particular - merits being considered when discussing the importance of “blood” and how it has influenced and improved warmbloods and sporthorses over multiple generations.

I think I also saw a few folks speak up politely criticizing the tendency for some of us (I know I do this) to routinely research stallions, and start looking at pedigrees and zeroing in on particular thoroughbred names 4 or 5 generations back. Rather than analyzing in terms of what a given mare line is known for producing, and looking at performance - especially Grand Prix or 4 star level performance at eventing - in the first three generations.

So with all this discussion of TBs/blood in sporthorse breeding, importance of mare lines, looking for Grand Prix or 4 star performers close up in a pedigree rather than just looking further back for great old TB names, etc, I thought I would link to one stallion currently standing in Europe. He’s available via frozen to NA breeders, but apparently not widely used. Just for the sake of discussion. I guess that makes me guilty of looking at yet another stallion and analyzing the pedigree like crazy - but I thought he would be interesting to bring up.

Bonaparte N AA. He’s Anglo Arab - so all blood. Being used for Warmblood breeding and approved for most stud books. I’m sort of curious as to what others weighing in on this thread think of him.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bonaparte+n+aa
http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/bonaparte.shtml

And a link to a site with a decent confirmation picture of him

http://www.stall-koehlbrandt.de/html/hengst_bonaparte.html

What I find particularly interesting is his mare line - goes to the TB mare Marchenfee, who was a German steeplechaser, and Very successful broodmare. What’s unique is the cross duplicate of this TB mare 3x2. Bonapartes dam, Marina, a daughter of Marchenfee, produced 2 other approved stallion sons, also high level jumpers. At the same time, if you look back in 4th and 5th generation, You find Hill Hawk and Sir Ivor - both awesome TB names for sport. His Arabian and Shagya blood is well known, so I won’t further complicate things by talking about that.

To my novice eye - this is an interesting addition of TB blood to warmblood programs via a stallion approved by most stud books, who was so strongly linebred to a TB mare. I’m curious if he has daughters who have produced anything yet.

Just thought it would be interesting to throw this particular horse and pedigree in to this discussion.[/QUOTE]

My recommendation Use him!!! He is one of my favorites. I have seen him competing in the Hamburg Derby!! And I think he has very nice offspring as well

But I am probably not a typical breeder. I am mainly a rider and I compete all my mares and chose stallions for performance records and also only if I like them…

[Elles]

Here and there I am still learning and picking up some interesting information.
Still it is hard with a lot of things to get cold hard facts and not just opinions. But with horses a lot is also about intuition ofcourse and that is hard to grasp.

[Cumano]

Bonaparte N AA. He’s Anglo Arab - so all blood. Being used for Warmblood breeding and approved for most stud books. I’m sort of curious as to what others weighing in on this thread think of him.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bonaparte+n+aa
http://www.superiorequinesires.com/s...onaparte.shtml

And a link to a site with a decent confirmation picture of him

http://www.stall-koehlbrandt.de/html...bonaparte.html

What I find particularly interesting is his mare line - goes to the TB mare Marchenfee, who was a German steeplechaser, and Very successful broodmare. What’s unique is the cross duplicate of this TB mare 3x2. Bonapartes dam, Marina, a daughter of Marchenfee, produced 2 other approved stallion sons, also high level jumpers. At the same time, if you look back in 4th and 5th generation, You find Hill Hawk and Sir Ivor - both awesome TB names for sport. His Arabian and Shagya blood is well known, so I won’t further complicate things by talking about that.

Very good idea to work with an exemple. I am not familliar with these specific lines nor with that stallion, but this seems to me an excellent exemple of well thought line breeding. The very strong mare in the line seems to be the stallions dame Marina more than her own dame Marchenfee. Most of Marchenfee’s succesfull descendant are through Marina (2 x 1m50 sj). However, Marchenfee also produced 2 stallions approuved with multiple studbooks, in a time where stallions were rarely put in sport. I don’t know these two stallions but the breeders surely did, and we can guess that they showed quality. This line breeding coming from both dame side and sire side is very interesting, but what is even more interesting is that the line breeding is made by breeding back on the direct dame line, and not through a random stallion appearing in the dames pedigree. The other interesting thing is that quality production is found close in successive generations. In my mind, this is the most interesting part of the pedigree. If you like stallions in the 4 or 5 generation, it is icing on the cake, however, to me, finding these stallions so low, and even numerous times in the 5th generation and lower, would be of very low interest if there was no significant production in the lines since.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8887584]
My recommendation Use him!!! He is one of my favorites. I have seen him competing in the Hamburg Derby!! And I think he has very nice offspring as well

But I am probably not a typical breeder. I am mainly a rider and I compete all my mares and chose stallions for performance records and also only if I like them…[/QUOTE]

Not a typical breeder… I don’t know, but basing your breeding decisions on your first hand impression of the stallion, on your impression of his foals you have seen and on the results of the mare and the stallion, and breeding with mares you have ridden is sure pretty close to the ideal situation in my mind…

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8887372]
Interesting post! I follow this thread because right now I am restarting a very interesting young mare. She is bred exactly in a way you don’t like… She is more than 50% TB although there is no TB in the first 2 Generations. But of course I am not interested in breeding eventers…

Her Great Grandfather was a Derbywinner (I think thats something, how many Derbywinners were used for breeding Warmbloods).

Her Grandfather on her sires side was Worldchampion of the Young Dressage horses and her motherline produced 2 international GP Dressage horses. one of them was a brother to her mother and the other one who won a World cup Qualifier was out of the full sister to her Grandmother.
So in a way there are 2 worlds combined in that horse. World class Racing and World class Dressage. Her mother was kind of an experiment for me and she is the product of that experiment. She looks like a TB but has the movement of a Warmblood. And additionally she has a beautiful mind. Always motivated to do something with the rider.

So some here might only discuss about possibilities, but I went ahead and bred (well I did not really breed her, I bought her mother in foal with her) a horse like this.
I am very excited about her and how she will develope. She is a little different then my other horses which are more the typical Warmblood. So I guess although she is not a direct TB cross some traits of a TB are still existent…[/QUOTE]
She sounds lovely, but I said nothing about not liking blooded WBs. I happen love them.

You definitely can still have some traits of the TB even if not a direct cross – I just think for eventing, the proven method at the moment is to have a direct contributor. Breeding is a gamble enough that combining blood % is not enough for most horses for stamina/endurance, and it does appear the TB influence in XC is still very much needed, especially if we look at results like Rio and Rolex where the less-blooded horses and horses with little/no direct TB contributors struggled to finish.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8887789]
Very good idea to work with an exemple. I am not familliar with these specific lines nor with that stallion, but this seems to me an excellent exemple of well thought line breeding. The very strong mare in the line seems to be the stallions dame Marina more than her own dame Marchenfee. Most of Marchenfee’s succesfull descendant are through Marina (2 x 1m50 sj). However, Marchenfee also produced 2 stallions approuved with multiple studbooks, in a time where stallions were rarely put in sport. I don’t know these two stallions but the breeders surely did, and we can guess that they showed quality. This line breeding coming from both dame side and sire side is very interesting, but what is even more interesting is that the line breeding is made by breeding back on the direct dame line, and not through a random stallion appearing in the dames pedigree. The other interesting thing is that quality production is found close in successive generations. In my mind, this is the most interesting part of the pedigree. If you like stallions in the 4 or 5 generation, it is icing on the cake, however, to me, finding these stallions so low, and even numerous times in the 5th generation and lower, would be of very low interest if there was no significant production in the lines since.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the feedback. I’ve been looking at and thinking about this stallion for about 2 years, and the more I research and study him, the more interesting he gets. It seems like he satisfies several “rules of thumb” when it comes to breeding… But he still provides wonderful blood to the equation. Pretty neat.

He was discussed at length in a different COTH thread a few years ago about AngloArab stallions, and Vineyridge contributed an EXCELLENT analysis on the blood in his pedigree, which is mostly used in German breeding. Including performance records in sport for this TB blood. It’s worth reading.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?347137-Anglo-Arab-Stallions

Full disclosure… I’m expecting a foal by him in 2017. His frozen had excellent motility, and was a very reasonable price. I have a 50% stake in that foal, and if I really like it once it is on the ground, I am STRONGLY considering breeding him to a young Oldenburg mare of mine, who is somewhere between 25 and 50 percent blood herself. Hoping for a really talented multipurpose prospect, who definitely could be pointed toward an eventing career.

So how does an Anglo Arab stallion crossed with an Oldenburg mare fit into this discussion of TB blood being important in sporthorse breeding?

Well… Matching the two is intriguing because of the way their mutual TB blood lines up, and how these particular Tb lines have proven Very successful in sport horse breeding over and over. Plus, both Bonaparte N and my young mare are very nice horses themselves… Although my mare is just starting her career. A gorgeous mover though, and wonderful over fences so far, although she is just starting. Her immediate sire was a GrAnd Prix show jumper, and her grand dam on the mare side has produced Grand Prix dressage horses, although that is no doubt due to the influence of some G line horses.

So it’s an open question as to what the cross could produce… But I think it could make for an incredible Event horse… Obvious talent for the dressage and stadium phases coming in via the first few generations. But it’s the specific TB blood involved and the way certain lines are duplicated, and the amount of blood a foal would have (about 50 percent, without factoring the Arab and Shagya Bonaparte brings to the picture).

The three major things I like about the possible cross are the way my mare’s tail female line combines with Marchenfee - who is Bonaparte N’s dam line (but also in his sire line). My mare Goes back to a full TB mare in her third generation, who has two Teddy twice in her first 5 via Case Ace And Bull Dog. Marchenfee herself has Teddy three times in her first 5 all on her damside via Ortello, Asterus, and Aventin.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=663437

So that’s a whole lot of Teddy coming in via mares. Maybe not exceptionally remarkable, but definitely a positive.

I know it’s all farther back, but I think it’s an interesting combination of mare lines. The TB mare in my mares third generation was used VERY successfully by an Oldenburg breeder for dressage breeding… Crossed with D line (Dominik… Not Donnerhall) and G line stallions. So she has a good record of producing performers (dressage horses).

But of other interest is the combination of Vierzehnender xx in Bonaparte Ns pedigree (he was Marchenfee’s sire), and Vollkorn Xx in my mares pedigree. Vollkorn comes in from my mare’s sire, and is in her 4th generation, Vierzehnender xx is in Bonaparte Ns 3rd and 4th generations. These two stallions were very closely related (same sire, Neckar, while the mare Vogelweide is the dam of one and granddam of the other). I am intrigued by combining them in this possible match… It would mean packing The pedigree further back with Dark Ronald and Graf Ferry. The fact that my mare has Furioso in her 4th gen contributes another line to Dark Ronald, and another influential TB producer of sport horses.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/vierzehnender
http://www.pedigreequery.com/vollkorn
http://www.pedigreequery.com/furioso2

Additionally, crossing Bonaparte N to my young Oldenburg mare gives me Hill Hawk twice in the 5th… Yeah - its far back… But it’s there, and I like it! TB blood, but known for use in dressage breeding.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/hill+hawk

if I go for it, I’m breeding for a keeper horse that I would be happy to invest time and money getting to a great rider to see what it could do.

So to me… That’s a very nice looking thing on paper for a possible eventing prospect. Not a pure TB, but the TB that is in the pedigree has an exceptional record with respect to sport horse breeding, and is line bred very intentionally.

As for the American vs. European Tb question… Definitely mostly European. except for the TB mare in my girl’s 3rd generation… She’s American. In addition to the double Teddy, that mare had Spy Song in her 3rd generation. A great name for sport… But definitely American.

[Elles]

www.sport-horse-breeder.com/market-share.html a response has been posted under Codicil.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=Elles;8889599]
www.sport-horse-breeder.com/market-share.html a response has been posted under Codicil.[/QUOTE]

This would require a spin-off as so many subject are adressed in her “Codicil”. However, as she quoted my post, I will just, in summary, precise my point. By the way, I did not comment in details then, and will not go in details now, as it is not the object of this post. For the record, I have bought her book and read it as I had read many of her articles on the web and felt she wrote well, and as I felt she could be the best one to explain the breeding philosophy of TB sport horse breeders in the USA. Although I strongly disagree on many of her views, this is in no way intended to disparage her work.

First, all european studbooks do not work the same, and are not gouvernmental entities. Most of them are in fact breeders associations. Gouvernmental help to the horse breeding industry varies country by country. It is not true to say they are Gouvernment owned breeds.

As for the TB not being a sport horse, this is not what I said. You must put it into context. What I said is that the TB associations, as “studbooks” are not sport oriented. I was saying that in the context of the condemnation of the WBFSH. The WBFSH regroups sport horses registries, meaning registries with a clear goal of establishing stricly sport based objectives to the breeding program. This is done trough breeding policies, approuval process and regulations oriented for the production of sport horses. TB, as a horse, may be used as a sport horse, but no association or “studbook”, exist that has the intent of being a sport horse registry in the meaning above. TB registration associations rules are stricly genetic, to ensure the purity of the lines. It doesn’t make the TB any less of a horse nor of a registry. The fact that they are not members of the WBFSH doesn’t means that either. We have no idea why no jockey club is part of the WBFSH, is it because they were refused or no steps were done? No one knows, but WBFSH is an association regrouping sport oriented studbook, for the purpose of developping breeding in the “warmblood” philosophy. Why would any TB association be a member if it not the mission thay consider having?

By the way WBFSH makes no rules with regards to horse breeding policies. These are stricly adopted by the Studbooks.

The studbook ranking of the WBFSH is just a ranking of studbooks members of the WBFSH, based on the performance of their 6 best horses. It doesn’t mean much. TB are counted in the individual rankings when their registrations can be confirmed.

Now when I talk about a conspiracy, here is what I mean. I will agree some studbooks, like the KWPN, put massive marketing efforts in NA, it is just fair business. American QH associations are massively promoting their horses in Europe as well. But the most important thing is that European breeds conquered the market at the highest levels because of their results, not because we forgot Americans bred horses. When it comes to sport horse market, professionnal are always on the look for the best horse, they do not care about the brand. The best american bred horses will get up the ranks and, if exceptionnal, will en up at the higher echelons. No european studbooks are doing anything to prevent these horses to go up. It is up to the breeder, if they have that exceptionnal horse, to give it adequate training, and put it into sport so it can show its potential.

There is no anti-american breeders attitude. You say you cannot find an explanation as to why american riders ride their “competitors horses”. The explanation is simple, these levels are so high that horses able to compete are rare everywhere in the world. It is not just the american that ride foreign horses, it happens in almost every country. Those horses are so rare that you buy them whenever wherever you can find them. Just rapidly, on top of my head, in RIO SJ teams of some of the major sport horse producer countries, France had 1 BWP and 1 SBS, GB had 1 kwpn, 1 SBS and 1 Holsteiner, Germany had 1 KWPN, 1 SWB and 1 BWP, Netherlands had 1 BWP and 1 SF. The market is international, it is not only her. Sport is tough and good horses are rare.

A final point is that european registries took control of our breeding operations. I am an example of that. I have given a lot of time and effort for one of the NA studbook. I felt their was a need to organise breeding in NA. However, I have never registered a horse with them. Why? Because to me, a studbook offers services. Studbooks are not trying to control breeders. They compete on services they offer, to get more breeders to register with them. I register my NA born horse with a foreign registry for two main reasons: 1) I have found a registry that shares my values and philosophy when in come to breeding, and by having papers from that studbooks for my horses, it states the values that went into my program, and ii) I benefit from much more services to help me evolve and develop. My horses are registered as born in NA, and I proudly represent them as such. I pay my membership in the American branch of the studbook, and it stays here to benefit american breeders.

This post is already too long, but the original article covers so many issues that i could keep going on. My only conclusion is that I felt that altough the author is entitled to her opinion, to many opinions circulating are based on predjudices and misleading informations. European sport horses have succes both in the sport and in the market. When our reflection are fouded on wrong perceptions, we are not trying to understand what was their succes and how we can use it to improve.

[Elles]

Okay, that was that. If more people would like to discuss these last to posts, please open a new topic.

[Elles]

With regard to finding the next exceptional TB stallion. What would we like it to add or change to the warmblood population? Because the horse does not have to be an end product but it has to leave some sort of favorable mark. Having in mind that seemingly still there are people on the lookout for a TB stallion.