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I am not sure how impressed the rest of the world will be on that award for that cross. Some jumper breeders think little of the xx and little of the trakehner so there is no hope for the xx/trak cross. (A european holsteiner devotee posted a “humorous” video clip of the first XX/trak cross being approved for that book–and the clip was of a Shetland pony doing tricks. Somewhat insulting but maybe that is German humor.)
But I think it can make a great sport horse cross myself!
If the horse is good, I do not see what the problem is, it all depends what you are looking for in the stallion. By the way, at least one of the jduge was from Holstein and the stallion is by Fragonard, who is approuved also in Holstein. When I was looking for information, I could not find, however, any significant production from that dame line. That is more what would discourage me than the TB sire. In fact, good stallions or even more good mares by a TB sires are generally well perceived by breeders, when they are from strong dame lines and show definite quality. What many breeders like less is taking themself the risk to breed their own mares to TB stallions.
As for the Trakehner side of things, it is a closed studbook who seems to have difficulty producing great jumpers with consistency since a couple of decades. It is therefore more difficult to find horses from significant dame lines coming out of Trakehner. Otherwise, I don’t think their would be a major bias against the Trakehner if we could find solid jumpers from solide dame lines.
http://www.trk-base.com/horse.php?id=776&screen=2&userif=1
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10631410
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10470182
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10618309
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=11202862
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10212829
Second placed horse, Painter’s Alexa, is a full sister to Painter’s Maxim. Painters Maxim did well at le Mondial du Lion.
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/224132
http://www.worldsporttiming.com/contenu/documents/0001_009412.pdf
Cumano–I agree that as both the Trakehner and thoroughbred are closed books and do not have a strong (specialty) developed jumping dam lines established it is hard to “make” one now out of that cloth. I have noticed the Russian/ Eastern European trakehners seemed to have been bred more for jump (and less for looks?) I like looking on the Russian trakehner site and see how many jumping trakehner blooded horses they have.
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/179079
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/356217
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/2083
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/203490
I whole-heartedly agree. I can’t tell you how frustrating it was for me as the person who maintained our webpage that we had few (if any) good conformation shots of Salute The Truth. It frustrated Steuart, too. (I hate hate hate the photo that you used…weeds, ugly gate…ugh - I wish it had never made it to the internet, but the internet is forever). Most of his photos were taken before the day and age of digital cameras. We have oodles of envelopes of rejects. The best, actually, are about 3 rolls of film where they took “Willy” up the road from the barn to stand near a group of mares (because then he’d look all handsome with an arched neck). BUT…there would have been a big need for some…erm…photoshopping out of unnecessary body parts. About 2 years ago, I found some old photos tucked away and found what I think is a better conformation shot of him at about age 5 or 6 (not sure of his age as the photo is undated). https://scontent.fphl2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1510015_10151814712816621_665673252_n.jpg?oh=987974f85982cae2b85845258a2ef233&oe=588C3EFA
Even Steuart conceded on Willy’s page on our website, “Salute The Truth is a great mover, but if I could improve him I’d raise his front end a bit higher and relax the muscles in his shoulders.”
[QUOTE=beowulf;8879043]
I’d be interested in Xanthoria’s reply. Here’s just a few WB stallions off of the top of my head:
Quaterback
Furstenball - his was tricky because of the shadows - note slope of the ground on his…
Balou Du Rouet - also on a huge angle![/QUOTE]
Not all the pics you posted showed but I’m late replying. Anyway I did those and a few others for fun:
Ramiro
Quaterback - 1
Quaterback - 2
Balou du Rouet
Baloubet du Rouet
Indoctro
[URL=“http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5457/30523460560_c439acf3c4_b.jpg”]Namelus
In all cases except Balou du Rouet I had to rotate the lines/angles to make them slightly more uphill than Comet Shine who was my template. I added Namelus because I was looking for just one, any warmblood who was uphill by all three measures - and even he is barely level.
Balou du Rouet’s photo is taken slightly from behind - this is misleading for assessment. And looking at a lot of these horses they have some conformational issues!
My conclusion: “uphill” in a static image is a crock. How a horse rides, their athletic expression and ability, is key.
[QUOTE=Xanthoria;8923411]
My conclusion: “uphill” in a static image is a crock. How a horse rides, their athletic expression and ability, is key.[/QUOTE]
:yes:
I agree how the horse moves is the final answer, though I do think that the conformation will play a part in how they move.
You want high stifles in dressage; which is why some horses will look more ‘downhill’ than they move. Conversely for jumping, you want low stifles and a long, sloping femur. It’s not exact science - how the femur is angled is a big part of how the horse moves.
Some horses I have ridden were so ‘uphill’ physically that I was amazed when I galloped them and I wanted to pull up, their way of going was so low and down. Then there are others that pleasantly surprise me; we have a TB in our front yard that is more ‘downhill’ than BdR’s lines - and he has the most uphill canter I have ever sat on. He was a crappy race horse because of it.
All this TB % talk boils down to WB x TB (in some fashion or another, depending on particular bloodlines) = successful sporthorses.
Yet at some point down the generations the TB% diminishes. And it’s fair to say that TB’s aren’t what they used to be, or if they are, it’s rare, mainly because the economics of producing TB’s has changed.
But even if you could wind the clock back and find some of the nicest old TB blood, would there be a viable market for a full TB, purpose bred to x with WB to produce successful sport horses in the next generation?
Not a short term project…and mare owners in the meantime can continue to order up frozen from the most popular (with good reason) WB winners to produce very marketable foals.
TB’s are important, but I’m not seeing much encouragement on the economic side to use full TB’s for sport breeding–and I own a mare that the above project could be done with (just ask vineyridge!). But she’s in foal to Emerald this year.
Is it still important to infuse WB lines with a shot of full TB blood at fairly regular intervals? Or has that ship sailed?
http://www.hengststation-schmidt.de/pages/cellestial.php
http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions_archive/cellestial.htm
Behind Windesi xx there is Windfields: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=523422
Here you can see a video of a young son of Cellestial:
http://www.horses.nl/fokkerij/hk-mecklenburg-theo-driessen-koopt-kampioenshengst/
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2016/11/14/diamond-hit-son-champion-2016-mecklenburg-stallion-licensing
One of the approved colts is out of a Dashing Blade xx x Lecroix xx mare.
