If you look which horses did best at the dressage and SJ during an event it is not the horses that are low or lowest in blood per se.
I have noticed on this board that some people get exited about TB’s with German blood. Thinking that these are maybe better at distances.
Fannie Mae’s statistics of only 300 TBx foals annually in Germany seems to me to show that German breeders are uninterested in the eventing market, such as it is. If the top German event riders are able to find exceptional horses just from the very small number of TB crosses in Germany, think how many more eventers worldwide would look at German event horses if more breeders were willing to breed for that market.
One thing that may change in eventing in the future is the importance of the 4s. Every top rider in the world seems to be searching for good horses with a majority of blood and a TB parent for the 4s. If the CCI dies, especially at the Olympic level, and the 4* CCIs with them, then perhaps the peculiar traits that make the TB so valuable in event breeding will no longer be important.
Horses for courses, don’t you know. And it does seem that certain full TBs are just as capable of performing good enough dressage to win 4*s. If the dressage coefficient were to go away and dressage was less important in the overall scoring, then the type of horse needed to be competitive in all three phases would probably change.
[QUOTE=Elles;8881920]
If you look which horses did best at the dressage and SJ during an event it is not the borses tbat are low or lowest in blood per se.
I have noticed on this board that some people get exited about TB’s with German blood. Thinking that these are maybe bettef at distances.[/QUOTE]
German TBs are especially notable for their soundness which is why they are always a positive.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8881886]
the thing is, Bayhawk knows very little about eventing, OR TBs. he may be a wealth of information about holsteiners and I will always defer to his expertise in that matter, but he is wrong if he thinks that TBs are not bepopulate and by and large, dominant in eventing. being “half TB” does not denigrate that fact - you NEED the blood to do well in the sport. take a look at the horses WINNING the upper levels. they are almost always half TB. if you look at the horses that complete, you will find by and large they are either full TB or half… it really shouldn’t be so hard to get that across to someone.
it is possible to discuss the merits of certain breeds without slinging ad hominems, which Bayhawk cannot seem to grasp. his inability to discuss anything without insults is tiresome.[/QUOTE]
I know a lot about eventing. Why do you think I have the opinions that I do ? I am not in love with a TB horse , nor do I form my opinions out of TB nostalgia. I also have no contempt for TB horses and as matter of fact have much respect for their contributions to sporthorse breeding today.
I follow breeding and showing all over the world. I see what is going on. What is going on is the fact that the TB horse himself is no longer needed for Eventing. However , his blood influence will always be.
TB’s are no longer dominating this sport and as a matter of fact they are being dominated by WB’s from almost all studbooks that contain a substantial portion of TB blood.
Why do you think there are only 3 TB stallions ranked in the top 10 of the eventing sires ranking of the WBFSH ? And no , a TB Stallion is not ranked # 1 or # 2 . Why do you think that out of the top 66 (11 studbooks x 6 horses each ) WBSFH ranked eventers , only 6 are sired by TB Stallions ?
Now I realize that this is not every eventer ranked here , but the numbers are PROFOUND !
Our Olympic Eventing Teams have been atrocious since O’connor won the Gold. One reason is they are still riding mostly TB’s and getting their butts handed to them from the rest of the world who are riding horses mostly from warmblood motherlines with a significant amount of TB blood on top. All of Michael Jungs top mounts are from WB motherlines for example.
Last but not least…STOP claiming horses that are “half” TB. They are NOT TB’s and you can’t claim them ! If I started claiming every horse in the world that was “half” Holsteiner , then you would in fact see total domination. Can’t do that…
I’m sorry if that was too direct and/or insulting for you.
And Bayhawk, you would be wrong as far as the 4*s are concerned. Jock Paget won Badminton and would have won Burghley in the same year on a 100% TB except for an unintentional drug test.
Andreas Dibowski won Luhmuhlen this year on a 100% TB. Cadeau du Roi, who came 5th at Burghley this year is 100% TB. Arctic Soul, Gemma Tattersall’s horse, came 3rd at Badminton this year–another 100% TB.
If the need for a TB parent has left the eventing station, you should tell all the UL eventers like Michael Jung and Ingrid Klimke and Dibo and WFP because they don’t seem to have heard that news.
You seem to be claiming that there is some magic in WB mothers. But you also claim that there is magic in WB stallions. So basically you think WBs are magic.
I AM NOT ONLY TALKING ABOUT FULL THOROUGHBREDS BUT ALSO THE CROSS OF A TB WITH A WB FOR SPORT!!! I am not interested in hearing that one should not use them at all!!! Or that a 3/4 TB is not a TB, I have known that for about 40 years already!!!
I was just wondering if there really is much of a difference between the different continents with regard to the TB. Why would people look in South America for TB’s? Why would they look in New Zealand? Is it true that the American TB’s are too downhill? Is it true that the German TB’s are more sound? I hear so many things being said but is it all fact or fantasy?
Elusive Emir:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFZTaX9jIsA
http://www.horsesportireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Stallion-Page-Elusive-Emir.pdf
http://live.rechenstelle.de/2016/boekelo/leaderboard02.html
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/1631823
[QUOTE=Elles;8882509]
I AM NOT ONLY TALKING ABOUT FULL THOROUGHBREDS BUT ALSO THE CROSS OF A TB WITH A WB FOR SPORT!!! I am not interested in hearing that one should not use them at all!!! Or that a 3/4 TB is not a TB, I have known that for about 40 years already!!!
I was just wondering if there really is much of a difference between the different continents with regard to the TB. Why would people look in South America for TB’s? Why would they look in New Zealand? Is it true that the American TB’s are too downhill? Is it true that the German TB’s are more sound? I hear so many things being said but is it all fact or fantasy?[/QUOTE]
“Is it true that the American TB’s are too downhill?”
I’ve got around 20 TBs of various ages, gender. There is maybe one that would be considered “downhill”.
I’ve had/bred some TBs that riders mistook for a WB and or said this horse looks and rides like a WB. Not exactly what I want to hear while training to race and or sell as a racing prospect.
“but is it all fact or fantasy”
From what I have read and or conversations I have had with those in the Sport Horse world IMO it is more “fantasy”, myth than based on facts.
From what I have read and or seen Sport horse breeders have a fraction of statistical “facts” to work with compared to TB breeders. Comparing Apples to Apples.
It seems an incredible amount of emphases, talk is only about the sire with little to no regard/discussion given to the distaff side of the equation. It is quite easy to research the complete produce history of any TB mare and the race performance of their foals. Flat racing or Steeplechase.
The same can’t be said for the distaff side of Sport Horses. At least not easily when I try and research them. Any article, books, research papers etc written about TBs will always discuss both sides of the equation. Usually far more is written about the distaff side. Because a mare can only produce 1 foal a year. Where as a TB stallion can have 100+. Top WB stallions can have many hundreds.
All of the discussions and or questions in this forum are always about a certain sire/stallion. Granted I don’t read everything written in this forum or about WB breeding. But I have yet to stumble on a discussion about distaff families, broodmare sires etc. To me based on what I have read WB breeders are sort of “grasping at straws”.
When I have the time I will read through all of the comments in this popular thread.
Wading in late… Has it not been mentioned that many of those “Hanoverians” or “ISH’s” etc are in fact what we would have called “half-breds” my youth? Particularly in eventing, if you dig a bit you find that 2 of the 4 grandparents are XX but the owner or breeder is ranting about how the TB is irrelevant and that their registry is now dominant in the sport.
The TB was in fact purpose bred for non racing purposes for generations, going back to the cavalry before the Civil War. Sons of Man O’ War covered mare for hunters etc. Sires like Hunter’s Moon and Bonne Nuit were famous for jumping and stamina. Families that were prominent in racing and 'chasing often kept strings of field hunters and show horses bred from less successful racing mares who were crossed with well know jumping sires. Today that type of TB owner has left the scene and the breeding of TB’s is more a business than a sport/hobby.
There are some nice TB colts who would probably be lovely hunters or eventers or jumpers but the economics of racing has changed. That modest colt who 50 years ago would have been brought home and tried over jumps (and if he had talent, might sire some good jumpers) is today owned by a partnership or a person who would rather cut his losses, drop the colt in for a tag and see him go off to a lesser circuit where he may be profitable for a new owner. In many cases, such a horse is gelded along the way. Maybe he stays sound, retires and goes on to a decent jumping career? If so, by the time he does, he’s gelded and is jumping ability doesn’t transmit to a new generation.
[QUOTE=Linny;8882726]
Wading in late… Has it not been mentioned that many of those “Hanoverians” or “ISH’s” etc are in fact what we would have called “half-breds” my youth? Particularly in eventing, if you dig a bit you find that 2 of the 4 grandparents are XX but the owner or breeder is ranting about how the TB is irrelevant and that their registry is now dominant in the sport.
The TB was in fact purpose bred for non racing purposes for generations, going back to the cavalry before the Civil War. Sons of Man O’ War covered mare for hunters etc. Sires like Hunter’s Moon and Bonne Nuit were famous for jumping and stamina. Families that were prominent in racing and 'chasing often kept strings of field hunters and show horses bred from less successful racing mares who were crossed with well know jumping sires. Today that type of TB owner has left the scene and the breeding of TB’s is more a business than a sport/hobby.
There are some nice TB colts who would probably be lovely hunters or eventers or jumpers but the economics of racing has changed. That modest colt who 50 years ago would have been brought home and tried over jumps (and if he had talent, might sire some good jumpers) is today owned by a partnership or a person who would rather cut his losses, drop the colt in for a tag and see him go off to a lesser circuit where he may be profitable for a new owner. In many cases, such a horse is gelded along the way. Maybe he stays sound, retires and goes on to a decent jumping career? If so, by the time he does, he’s gelded and is jumping ability doesn’t transmit to a new generation.[/QUOTE]
Thank you, Linny. Well said.
Many of the so-called WBs or ISHs are in fact more than 1/2 TB.
A Little Romance (by A Fine Romance xx out of mare who is by aTrakehner out of a TB mare) competed at the Olympics as a ‘Trakehner’ - but by blood she is more than 3/4 TB. The Trakehners claim a horse as one of theirs with only 25% Trak blood, but unless a horse is 100% and registered TB some people here don’t want to count them as Thoroughbreds.
IMO they are.
Gumtree, sport horse breeders in Europe have access to volumes of information. It is less available here in the United States because of the lack of interest in the USEF towards breeding.
I am glad that there are people that can talkt about TB without gaslighting over and over again!
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8882383]
And Bayhawk, you would be wrong as far as the 4*s are concerned. Jock Paget won Badminton and would have won Burghley in the same year on a 100% TB except for an unintentional drug test.
Andreas Dibowski won Luhmuhlen this year on a 100% TB. Cadeau du Roi, who came 5th at Burghley this year is 100% TB. Arctic Soul, Gemma Tattersall’s horse, came 3rd at Badminton this year–another 100% TB.
If the need for a TB parent has left the eventing station, you should tell all the UL eventers like Michael Jung and Ingrid Klimke and Dibo and WFP because they don’t seem to have heard that news.
You seem to be claiming that there is some magic in WB mothers. But you also claim that there is magic in WB stallions. So basically you think WBs are magic.[/QUOTE]
Would have , should have , might have… 4* this…drug test that. Of course there will be full TB winners. I’m not disputing this. I’m only saying that the full TB is no longer needed.
I do believe there is magic in the WB motherlines as they clearly are making the eventer better at dressage and jumping.
I never said the TB wasn’t magical either. I have often given them their respect as you only need to read my posts to discern that.
I think the blending of the 2 is making the best event horse for today’s competition. The rankings and results are backing this up.
If you look at Contendro I (#1 ranked WBSFH sire of event horses in the world as of end of August 2016) his TB influence is profound. He is by Contender / Reichsgraf / Rasputin / Tin Rod xx / Ramzes . There are 3 crosses to Ramiro (which means multiple Cottage son xx influence) . There are several crosses to Ladykiller xx ,direct Tin Rod xx and many crosses to Ramzes. There is other TB influence as well.
You compound all this TB influence with the jumping from the Holstein motherline , fatherline and the movement and mind from Calypso II…it’s no wonder Contendro I is the #1 sire of eventers in the world.
Just sayin…
No. You’ve often bad mouthed and insulted TB’s, which is why some of us don’t take your posts seriously.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8882872]
Would have , should have , might have… 4* this…drug test that. Of course there will be full TB winners. I’m not disputing this. I’m only saying that the full TB is no longer needed.
I do believe there is magic in the WB motherlines as they clearly are making the eventer better at dressage and jumping.
I never said the TB wasn’t magical either. I have often given them their respect as you only need to read my posts to discern that.
I think the blending of the 2 is making the best event horse for today’s competition. The rankings and results are backing this up.
If you look at Contendro I (#1 ranked WBSFH sire of event horses in the world as of end of August 2016) his TB influence is profound. He is by Contender / Reichsgraf / Rasputin / Tin Rod xx / Ramzes . There are 3 crosses to Ramiro (which means multiple Cottage son xx influence) . There are several crosses to Ladykiller xx ,direct Tin Rod xx and many crosses to Ramzes. There is other TB influence as well.
You compound all this TB influence with the jumping from the Holstein motherline , fatherline and the movement and mind from Calypso II…it’s no wonder Contendro I is the #1 sire of eventers in the world.
Just sayin…[/QUOTE]
eight years ago we had exactly the same discussion - worth reading:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?160879-A-Special-Role-No-More-TBs-In-Sport-Horse-Breeding&highlight=SPECIAL+ROLE+MORE%3A+TBs+SPORT+HORSE+BREEDING
[QUOTE=fannie mae;8882963]
eight years ago we had exactly the same discussion - worth reading:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?160879-A-Special-Role-No-More-TBs-In-Sport-Horse-Breeding&highlight=SPECIAL+ROLE+MORE%3A+TBs+SPORT+HORSE+BREEDING[/QUOTE]
More than once…
Eight years ago, top eventers thought that they could do without TB blood close up. They know better now.
Contendro I may be ranked as the number one stallion in eventing by the WBFSH, but his get have never won a 4*. In fact of the horses in the top 50 progeny, I’ve looked at the top eleven on the FEI database, and here is what I found.
NZB Campino and Mark Todd: 1 CCI win at 2*; 19 runs at CIC out of 29. Never won a 4*. Never won a CCI 3*, and has only completed 1. Has Completed 4 CCI 4*s in the top 10.
RF West Indie and Marilyn Little: Never run a 4*. Has completed 1 CCI 3* and two CIC 3s. Top ten in all. Completed 2 CCI 2s of 3, winning 1.
Chipmunk FRH and Julia Krajewski: Has done 1 CCI, a 1* in which she came 3rd. Has never done a CCI 2* or 3*, except at Le Lion, where they finished 29th in the 7 yo 2*… Has completed one CIC3* and came 2nd. Very Young horse.
Candy Girl and Anna Nillson: Never tried a 4*. Has run 1 CCI 3* and finished 27th. Did one CCI 1* and finished 11th. Were 35th at Le Lion in the 6yo CCI 1*. Has run 3 CIC 3s, winning 1 and 3rd the year before at Sopot. All the rest of her runs have been at the CIC 2 level and below.
Cheeky Calimbo and Andrew Hoy: Never tried a 4*. Entered 7 CCI3*, completing 4, 2 at Montelibretti where he came 1st and 9th. 27th at Boekelo amd 26th at Blenheim. Won or finished in the top ten in several CIC 3s. Won a CCI 1 and CCI2* at Blair Castle. Has done 10 of 40 runs in CCIs.
Revitavet Capato and Jordan Linstedt: Finished Rolex 4* twice–31st and 35th. Finished one 3CCI at 6th. Top ten in all completed CIC 3s, 2s and 1s of both varieties.:
Call Me Honey 2 and Dirk Schrade: 1* and 2* only. Has done one CCI1*, which he won. All the rest are CICs at the 1* and 2* level. Young Horse.
Chatwin and Fraces Thieriot Stutes: 1 CIC 3* and 3rd. Everything else is 2* and 1*, about evenly mixed. Young horse, and a winner at the 1* and 2* levels.
Cato 60 and Claus Romeike: Completed 3 4s–2 Luhmuhlen–18th and 19th; 6th at Pau. 3 CCI 3s; 7th at Vairano Milano, 21st at Blair Castle, and 18th at Boekelo.
Calista and Rosalind Canter: Total of 9 runs at the 1* and 2* level. Completed 7. Top ten finish at CCI2* and CCI 1*. After those two next best finish is a 15th.
Corona 94–1* and 2* horse. Never done a CCI. Brought along by Sandra Aufarth and sold.
From this, I would say that his WBFSH ranking is primarily based on CIC results at the lower levels except for Mark Todd’ NZB Campino.
That topic I did not know about, interesting.
[QUOTE=fannie mae;8882963]
eight years ago we had exactly the same discussion - worth reading:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?160879-A-Special-Role-No-More-TBs-In-Sport-Horse-Breeding&highlight=SPECIAL+ROLE+MORE%3A+TBs+SPORT+HORSE+BREEDING[/QUOTE]
