Anyone use this? Had a pretty heated discussion on facebook a couple of days ago about a certain foal, you know the type…
Unique Buckskin Pinto Warmblood with the bloodlines of (Insert Paint(not registered) name here and Clydesdale(not registered) name here. When I asked if any of that listed above had been inspected and actually branded I was shocked to find out YES! Looked at the stallion…his best feature is his color. Mare was slightly roached back, camped out in the back and insult to injury wasn’t even EVER broke to ride! WTH! I’m actually tempted to head over to an inspection to see exactly what the thought process is for them.
[QUOTE=leilatigress;6204819]
Anyone use this? Had a pretty heated discussion on facebook a couple of days ago about a certain foal, you know the type…
Unique Buckskin Pinto Warmblood with the bloodlines of (Insert Paint(not registered) name here and Clydesdale(not registered) name here. When I asked if any of that listed above had been inspected and actually branded I was shocked to find out YES! Looked at the stallion…his best feature is his color. Mare was slightly roached back, camped out in the back and insult to injury wasn’t even EVER broke to ride! WTH! I’m actually tempted to head over to an inspection to see exactly what the thought process is for them.[/QUOTE]
You sound surprised. Maybe you aren’t familiar with “American Warmbloods” :lol:. What you describe is pretty typical. This is why they can’t get any respect here or abroad. As long as they’re accepting Paints and draft horses and calling them Warmbloods, nobody is going to take them seriously.
The people over at the AWR and AWS may be geniuses, who knows. They’ve figured out how to get people to pay perfectly good money for essentially worthless papers so they can mislabel their backyard crosses as Warmbloods.
And yes, it pisses me off too to see people tarnishing the Warmblood name this way.
ISR and RPSI also accept those bloodlines (Paints, unregistered mares, QHs, and other assorted non-WB breeds) into their marebooks and register the foals - not sure why the AW registries take all the heat on this topic.
And yes, even the most prestigous WB registries register and approve for breeding mares who “aren’t even broke to ride” - and who have various conformation flaws. They may not score high, but they are there.
ISR/Old NA also accepts “non-traditional” breeds of mares and even mares without any papers at all, but they put them in Pre-Mare Books.
And the big difference between RPSI, OldNA and registries like AWS is that they do NOT accept STALLIONS with this sort of breeding, nor can these “non-trad” mares produce an approved stallion.
I know with RPSI, for instance, a stallion must not have any breeds but European WBs, TBs and/or Arab in their pedigree for 5 generations.
But, yes, I’ve gone to a few AWS inspections and they are pretty sad…
ISR and RPSI also accept those bloodlines (Paints, unregistered mares, QHs, and other assorted non-WB breeds) into their marebooks and register the foals - not sure why the AW registries take all the heat on this topic
And CWHBA, CSH, RPSI, the list goes on I would imagine. Lots of associations allow this in one way or another.
ISR/Old NA also accepts “non-traditional” breeds of mares and even mares with any papers at all, but they put them in Pre-Mare Books
What does it matter what book they put them in? The result is the same, offspring are advertised as belonging to that gene pool, to that brand, to that association in one way or another. By doing so, that registry is essentially saying that they will allow that horse to influence their gene pool and to represent their brand. Breeders think the multiple book approach sets some registries apart from associations such as AW but in reality if a horse can be said to be “registered” with a particular association then that is all most buyers see. They don’t understand “books” or care what color the paper is. If horse is registered CWB then it is a CWB wether papers are brown or green or yellow.
So yeah, I think one is fooling him or herself if they honestly believe AW is so different from many of the other registries mentioned above…
About some of the other registries taking “any” mares for their books is a bit misleading. Mares who are not proven to have acceptable blood, or mares who do have acceptable blood but it can’t be proven can get into a lower book but their foals NO MATTER THE STALLION, CAN NOT BE REGISTERED. They can get a COP that is basically a piece of paper that says who or what the bloodlines that have been proven are. In the instance of a mare who is in a lower book with the RPSI she must be bred out by 4 generations with proven acceptable blood for a foal with her in the pedigree to be registered. IMO that is a far cry from the “american warmbloods” who just get fully registered no matter who/what the parents are.
Therefore the problem some of the more legit registries who do offer a lower book get knocked because people who use them don’t represent their horses correctly/honestly to potential buyers. They will tell a buyer that the horse is registered when in fact it is not! That just plain gets under my skin.
:sigh: It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. Having missed all the drama on FB, care to share the pedigree/names? Having a stallion get a preliminary license is not that big of a deal. Having him KEEP the license permanently IS a big deal as the quality of his foal crops will determine whether he is in or out long term. If the foals don’t measure up, he’s out. Permanently.
I’m curious and as an openly pro-AWR person, somewhat intrigued that all the horses in the registry are considered ‘less than’ due to some individuals that are less than perfect. I’ve seen some other horses in BNEuro registries that were not my cup of tea…doesn’t make the registry any less in my eyes. Just that individual horse. :-/
But FWIW - if you are in the mid-Atlantic, we’re hosting another inspection here in August. Spectators are welcome as always. Or if you would like to come to the farm and see a pile of AWR horses that’s fine too.
Is there a registry in the US that is working on this? I know there are sister registries to most of the European registries obviously…
But It would be nice to have an American Warmblood Registry, that is Warmbloods bred in America lol. Not TB/Paint/Morgan/Saddlebred/Percheron crosses, called Warmbloods lol.
Exactly, everafterfarm.
Crossing a Paint and a Hanoverian and getting a COP from the AHS is not the same as the AWS/AWR accepting any breed or cross for full papers. Full papers are not the same as being entered into a lower book or being issued a COP.
The practice of issuing a COP to horses with (only) one acceptable parent is pretty common in the legitimate Warmblood registries. The mere fact that a horse is limited to a lower book or a COP is a sign from the legitimate registries, this breeding isn’t what they recommend. It is not the same as full registration. It is also not the same at all as what the AWS/AWR does. The AWS/AWR aren’t issuing a COP and trying to discourage this type of breeding. They’re issuing full papers and giving breeding approvals to these horses, and nobody much cares what you’re breeding as long as you pay your registration fees. Then you’ve got people running around with crosses like in the OP, calling them Warmbloods. Or calling them American Warmbloods, and wondering why everybody looks down on American Warmbloods.
There is no way anyone can reasonably compare the policies of the AWS/AWR with the lower book and/or COP approach of the legit Warmblood registries.
ISR and RPSI also accept those bloodlines (Paints, unregistered mares, QHs, and other assorted non-WB breeds) into their marebooks and register the foals - not sure why the AW registries take all the heat on this topic.
As has already been pointed out, the big difference is that the legit registries put these horses in the lowest books, or issue them a COP only. It’s not at all the same as the AWS/AWR giving these horses full papers, breeding approval, and etc… Would the ISR or RPSI approve a Paint, Paint cross, or draft cross stallion? I’m pretty sure the answer is NO.
[QUOTE=Tasker;6205455]
Having missed all the drama on FB, care to share the pedigree/names? [/QUOTE]
That would seem rather inappropriate, and not even necessary for the sake of this discussion. The point is, it happens. The AW registries have lower standards which allow this to happen. We don’t need to “out” this one unsuspecting backyard breeder for something which happens in these registries every day.
[QUOTE=Tasker;6205455]
:sigh: It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. Having missed all the drama on FB, care to share the pedigree/names? Having a stallion get a preliminary license is not that big of a deal. Having him KEEP the license permanently IS a big deal as the quality of his foal crops will determine whether he is in or out long term. If the foals don’t measure up, he’s out. Permanently.
I’m curious and as an openly pro-AWR person, somewhat intrigued that all the horses in the registry are considered ‘less than’ due to some individuals that are less than perfect. I’ve seen some other horses in BNEuro registries that were not my cup of tea…doesn’t make the registry any less in my eyes. Just that individual horse. :-/
But FWIW - if you are in the mid-Atlantic, we’re hosting another inspection here in August. Spectators are welcome as always. Or if you would like to come to the farm and see a pile of AWR horses that’s fine too.[/QUOTE]
I agree Tasker - we have hosted AWS inspections three times now, and I have yet to see a draft cross, and we only saw one Paint in those three years - and he was quite nice, not a stock horse type at all (remember, many sport-type Paints are mostly Tbred, APHA even registers pure Tbreds). Most of the horses are Warmbloods or Warmblood crosses, and we get some Friesian crosses (and my horses are Friesian/Warmblood crosses). Most of the horses have been quite nice.
The other Nor-Cal inspection host also has Warmbloods, so maybe we see a different type of horse at our inspections, but the quality is generally quite good and the inspector is pretty thorough. Ocassionally we get a horse that is also inspected and entered with another WB registry (such as Old or RPSI) and the AWS inspection tends to be just as thorough.
I’ve attended plenty of Old/ISR, GOV, RPSI, and Hanoverian inspections, and have seen some very high quality horses and some horses who are pretty low quality, still accepted into the mare books. Hanoverian tends to be the “pickiest” of these registries, and I actually thought Old/ISR was less selective then AWS when it came to scoring.
And people forget, the American registries also have different books. I’m going to guess, if this horse on FB was such a “mess”, then he didn’t score so well? And the parents may have been registered, but that doesn’t mean they were approved for breeding.
There are many high quality horses in both the American registries - sure there are a few dogs, but I can say the same about any registry. So, instead of ranting at the registry, why not rant at the breeder? Each horse should be individually judged on its own merits, rather then based on the brand (or lack thereof) on its butt.
It is not appropriate to have a trial by hearsay or to lump two registries under one pustule. There are two Oldenburger registries operating over here and people like to make a clear distinction. The same would go for those of us who support American breeding. If you want to understand both registries, go to their respective websites. Each have a list of licensed stallions for your perusal. What someone claims on a social network site or a bulletin board just smacks of gossip and the type of behavior going on here is just bullying, pure and simple.
Shame on all of you who sell out American efforts to foreigners.
[QUOTE=pinecone;6205514]
That would seem rather inappropriate, and not even necessary for the sake of this discussion. The point is, it happens. The AW registries have lower standards which allow this to happen. We don’t need to “out” this one unsuspecting backyard breeder for something which happens in these registries every day.[/QUOTE]
The reason I had asked for a name (PM is fine BTW) is to see if the stallion was licensed currently - i.e. his dues are paid and he has a breeding permit for 2012. That’s all. The fact that he may have had a license (preliminary) at one time, does not mean he is currently licensed for breeding AWR eligible stock. Also, unless said stallion was granted his permanent license his approval status is still up in the air. Read the rulebook - it’s all in there. The AWR also sends out registration papers with “Not For Breeding” on them after inspections if the scores are not good enough and will revoke a stallion’s breeding license.
The AWS has different levels of grading stock - I think it’s like the ISR in that way. shrug I don’t see how having people call their mixed breed stock “Warmblood” or tacking on American on it is that big a deal. And that’s as an AWR card carrying member. It happens. BFD Unless the stallion has a current license/breeding permit, he’s not producing AWR stock - there is plenty of mis-representation out in the horse world.
The lower standards are debate-able IMO. But like I said before, I’ve seen plenty of BN registry horses that I would not care to own, let alone breed or God forbid - RIDE. Doesn’t change my opinion of the registry, merely the horse/bloodlines…I look at inspection scores, performance results and then consistency in the offspring along with a few dozen other things. If there is a consistent flaw or positive attribute - that knowledge is available and accessible to members. Ask for inspection score sheets!
FWIW being able to pick and choose stallions from ANY studbook (VhW, OLD, KWPN) for our mares, register the stock as American has more value than hunting and hoping that the stallion who happens to be the perfect match for that 1 mare get approval by a Stallion Jury. I like having choices that are independent of breed affiliation! 
Damning the entire Registry for someone else’s debatable breeding choice is no less fair than publicly naming the stallion/mare that started this thread. I’m sure breeding disasters have happened in other studbooks…
Carry on though. I’m off to go ride some more of these terrible AWR horses. :sigh:
I don’t know the FB issue to be sure…but
- it is about the AWR and not the AWS? They are not the same registry and the AWS is more open to draft crosses than the AWR is.
2)if is was the AWR:
are you sure the foal is by and unregistered Paint? The AWR only has 1 dilute Paint stallion that is breeding approved and that is Rubicons Moonlit Motion: he is APHA by the cremello QH Raleighs Full Moon and is not unregistered. The mare would probably have gone into a lower book as Sonja has no fondness for draft horses. She has not been too shy about expressing that.
Just like all the euro registries the AWR accepts crossbreds and has lower books and papers marked not for breeding. It is not unique to the American registries. There are plenty of broodmares that are not riding horses for a variety of reasons from “bred to be a broodmare” to pasture injured as a yongster and can’t be ridden…not a unique thing to ANY breed there.
I have been involved with the AWR for 10 years or so. I won’t say it has always been a smooth ride/have been some disagreements over the years…but this post is rather insulting from the get go when you start it out with “you know the type…” as if roach backed, unique colored, camped out horses are the “norm” for and American bred WB… be it AWR or AWS. While the funky horses are out there they are not the norm.My AWR horses are in fact a bit APHA…mostly TB/WB with 1/8 to 1/4 APHA in them. I like pintos, I breed colored horses (gasp) and wanted an outcross from the Samber/Tina lines. They are not camped under stock horses.
I have steadfastly refused to look for approvals for my ASBs, although I know that some folks have gone through the process.
I prefer to take mine out, and show them in front of the best judges possible, and see how they score.
So, having said that, I do take umbrage at any thoughts or representations that anything American is not up to the standards of the European warmbloods. There will absolutely be some that are simply exceptional-- but, then we have Euro-trash. And, personally, I’ve seen alot of it. Just because it gets a brand does not mean that is is an exceptional individual, or even better than average. This is particularly the case when some genius decides that they need a foal by a warmblood, out of their I would not bother breeding more of this mare.
Sorry.
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;6205580]
Most of the horses are Warmbloods or Warmblood crosses, and we get some Friesian crosses (and my horses are Friesian/Warmblood crosses).[/QUOTE]
Why do you say this, isn’t your own stallion a Paint cross?
This is what I do not like about the American Warmblood registrys, I feel like people use the Warmblood name label to gloss over the things they think people will not approve of. Because Warmblood sounds better than Paint cross.
I know Mystic Oaks very nice (Grand Prix) stallion and he does not have any paint bloodlines. He’s a pinto! Bloodlines are Friesian and Warmblood! Even if he had paint bloodlines, he’s been successfully shown at Grand Prix which is more than most of the all Warmblood breeding stallions out there can say for themselves!
[QUOTE=Reiter;6207585]
I know Mystic Oaks very nice (Grand Prix) stallion and he does not have any paint bloodlines. He’s a pinto! Bloodlines are Friesian and Warmblood! Even if he had paint bloodlines, he’s been successfully shown at Grand Prix which is more than most of the all Warmblood breeding stallions out there can say for themselves![/QUOTE]
He may be an exceptional stallion, but according to his pedigree on the AWS website, he is indeed out of a Paint cross mare. Why be defensive about the truth? 
Why do you say this, isn’t your own stallion a Paint cross?
That horse is not a paint cross, but is an uber talented Warmblood Friesian cross that has been very successful in the GP ring.
Again, I just visited the RPSI site and I know with CWHBA and I am sure many others, any “off” breed can breed it’s way up to the main mare book within certain generations. That is very , very different approach than to issue a COP. At the end of the day it means that that registry accepts non traditional blood into it’s gene pool.
As far as I am concerned if you register your horse Rpsi, ISR, CWHBA, CSH, ect you had better be ok with the above described breeding policy. Thinking AWR is alone in this approach is not correct.
Didn’t all Warmbloods breeds start as a type that was refined over time, infusing this blood and that, until the product became what the founders wanted at that time? Isn’t the ideal Warmblood still evolving and changing as the years go by?
Everything has to start somewhere. American Warmbloods have to start somewhere and, as with other Warmblood registries, you pull from what horses are available in your region (Holsteins from Holsteiner region, Oldenburg from Oldenburg region, etc.). Then you hone those founding horses/bloodlines to get the type you desire and breed for that final end result. It doesn’t happen overnight and European registries aren’t better except in the fact that they are further along in the process.
I don’t know how you get from the point of approving the type you want, to encouraging people to breed those approved horses together to further refine the type/ability into a better animal. Do you close the books for awhile to outside stock to start getting those F2, F3, etc crosses on the books? I have no idea, but I’m sure the people involved have a vision and knowledge of how things work, it will just take time.
I think it’s really easy to put down people who are trying to do something when the results aren’t immediate, but as they say, Rome wasn’t built in a day- neither were the European Warmbloods (coughcoughcarthorsescoughcough), nor will the American Warmbloods.
