American Warmblood Registry-rant

I’ve never understood the Euro registry WB people getting so upset about the fact that some registries permit horses of other than Euro WB acceptable blood to find homes in American registries. I’ve got several books from the days before the Euro invasion and more than a few of the show jumpers and hunters were full blood Quarter Horses or TBxs from “usually” dams of parentage that was not fully known. These horses competed in the highest class shows in the US and some of them (Bold Minstrel, for example) competed for the US internationally. They were not lesser talents. They were just darned good jumpers. Irish horses often have unknown for the dam line after the first dam, and sometimes the first dam–and things have been this way for decades. Under some of the registry requirements mentioned above, even for the “American” registries, Irish horses would not be allowed to breed in the MMB, no matter how accomplished.

Do we really think that contemporary Euro blood horses are that much better than the horses of the past? Do they jump higher or wider? Look at the 1968 show jumping course in Mexico City where a US TB was first individually and a Connemara pony was second. It had jumps up to 1.75 meters high and over seven feet wide. If you say that the courses today are more technical, all that means is that the courses are designed for horses who can jump high under the conditions that the courses demand. Change the course and the horse may not excel. In fact, that’s happened in Germany, of all places.

This slavish devotion to the German/Dutch marketing machine in the US is truly puzzling, especially when a) German registries were originally geographic entities, b) horses such as Halla were completely outside the registry system of the time, c) the US has a number of breeds, individuals of which may have superior talent, that are not found in Europe and are not members of the founding breeds of the German/Dutch registries (given a few Saddlebreds in Holland). Those individuals of “less” (other) than Euro blood, when they are given a chance to shine in competition, should also be given a chance to breed and not considered second class citizens.

What I would propose is a performance requirement for all breeding animals, regardless of the registry or the breed. Let America develop performance horses from American breeds as well as European ones. Why would German light farm horses crossed with TB and Arab be the only horses worth perpetuating for competition? In fact, why are Arabs acceptable? They have never excelled at any of the English disciplines. As a breed they don’t jump high or wide; to my knowledge, they have NEVER produced a world class dressage horse. They do produce world class endurance horses, and certain individuals can jump and do dressage, just as some individuals in the American breeds can perform. So why are Arabs acceptable and American breeds not? Could it be because Arabs are what were in Europe?

I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, that there are certain things that the saddlebred and Morgan could bring to dressage and the Quarter Horse could bring in jumping that should be objectively evaluated without bringing Euro snobbery to the table. The traditional American breeds are simply not lesser.

Edited to add: Did anyone here read the article in The Chronicle by the vet who suggests that if drugging is used so much in hunter competition because the animals need to show as if they were drugged to win, then the judging criteria might need to be changed? He suggests that horses should not be asked to compete where they are unable to meet the present standard without drugs. This yet another example of horses for courses; do and buy what is needed to win under current conditions.

he does not have any paint bloodlines. He’s a pinto! Bloodlines are Friesian and Warmblood!

That horse is not a paint cross

You are both wrong.

Tuckawayfarm is right. He is 1/4 Paint. Here is his pedigree http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lsh+cadence+in+color

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;6207601]
He may be an exceptional stallion, but according to his pedigree on the AWS website, he is indeed out of a Paint cross mare. Why be defensive about the truth? :confused:[/QUOTE]

This. Yes, he’s 1/4 Paint, his dam is/was a Paint cross, and his damline is not traceable more than 3 generations. He may very well be an exceptional horse who is worthy being a stallion based upon his accomplishments. But he is not worthy based solely upon his pedigree. Which is the beef of the OP. Why not be truthful?

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lsh+cadence+in+color

What I would propose is a performance requirement for all breeding animals, regardless of the registry or the breed. Let America develop performance horses from American breeds as well as European ones. Why would German light farm horses crossed with TB and Arab be the only horses worth perpetuating for competition?

I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, that there are certain things that the saddlebred and Morgan could bring to dressage and the Quarter Horse could bring in jumping that should be objectively evaluated without bringing Euro snobbery to the table. The traditional American breeds are simply not lesser.

This is worth repeating. Sometimes the breed snobbery blows me away.

[QUOTE=RacetrackReject;6207736]
Didn’t all Warmbloods breeds start as a type that was refined over time, infusing this blood and that, until the product became what the founders wanted at that time? Isn’t the ideal Warmblood still evolving and changing as the years go by?

Everything has to start somewhere. American Warmbloods have to start somewhere and, as with other Warmblood registries, you pull from what horses are available in your region (Holsteins from Holsteiner region, Oldenburg from Oldenburg region, etc.). Then you hone those founding horses/bloodlines to get the type you desire and breed for that final end result. It doesn’t happen overnight and European registries aren’t better except in the fact that they are further along in the process.

I don’t know how you get from the point of approving the type you want, to encouraging people to breed those approved horses together to further refine the type/ability into a better animal. Do you close the books for awhile to outside stock to start getting those F2, F3, etc crosses on the books? I have no idea, but I’m sure the people involved have a vision and knowledge of how things work, it will just take time.

I think it’s really easy to put down people who are trying to do something when the results aren’t immediate, but as they say, Rome wasn’t built in a day- neither were the European Warmbloods (coughcoughcarthorsescoughcough), nor will the American Warmbloods.[/QUOTE]

True, every breed has to start somewhere… But when there are well bred, talented, SPORT horses out there, why go all the way back to an F1 cross? Why breed generations of ‘warmbloods’ to try to eventually catch up with the European standards? Why not start with a better base line?

Breeding should be breed the best possible stallions to the best available mares (because, let’s face it, in this day and age shipping semen is a simple thing).
There are many good breeders here in the States and lots of very high quality American bred sport horses out there who are choosing not the register with the AWR or AWS as the perception of those registries is not up to par. I know that I would be more inclined to go look at a premium OLD foal as opposed to a AWS foal (do they even have premium or elite? Serious question. I don’t know this).

But I am not a breeder, only a buyer and eventual rider of these horses bred in the States…

[QUOTE=amm2cd;6207892]
True, every breed has to start somewhere… But when there are well bred, talented, SPORT horses out there, why go all the way back to an F1 cross? Why breed generations of ‘warmbloods’ to try to eventually catch up with the European standards? Why not start with a better base line?

Breeding should be breed the best possible stallions to the best available mares (because, let’s face it, in this day and age shipping semen is a simple thing).
There are many good breeders here in the States and lots of very high quality American bred sport horses out there who are choosing not the register with the AWR or AWS as the perception of those registries is not up to par. I know that I would be more inclined to go look at a premium OLD foal as opposed to a AWS foal (do they even have premium or elite? Serious question. I don’t know this).

But I am not a breeder, only a buyer and eventual rider of these horses bred in the States…[/QUOTE]

Oh I understand what you are saying completely and I can agree with that, but if the point is to make a truly American Warmblood, it needs to be, well, American, yes? If not, then it’s just another registry to take money from owners of horses already registered/approved through their own breed registries.

I am not a breeder myself, but a rider who doesn’t care one lick what breed(s) a horse is if it can do it’s job.

[QUOTE=Fourbeats;6207858]
This is worth repeating. Sometimes the breed snobbery blows me away.[/QUOTE]

Well for me it has nothing to do with snobbery and everything to do with honesty. How are US breeders ever going to get anywhere if we aren’t honest about the bloodlines we are using and the performance results we are getting?

I remember taking some heat here a while back for mentioning the actual show record of a very nice stallion who was being actively promoted as having achieved results that he simply had not. What is the point of not being upfront with each other?

I loved our TB and QH jumpers and was happy to discuss their origins and their easily verifiable performance records. If we believe American breeds can bring something to the table why aren’t we talking about these choices openly? :confused:

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6207764]
What I would propose is a performance requirement for all breeding animals, regardless of the registry or the breed. Let America develop performance horses from American breeds as well as European ones. Why would German light farm horses crossed with TB and Arab be the only horses worth perpetuating for competition?

I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, that there are certain things that the saddlebred and Morgan could bring to dressage and the Quarter Horse could bring in jumping that should be objectively evaluated without bringing Euro snobbery to the table. The traditional American breeds are simply not lesser.

Edited to add: Did anyone here read the article in The Chronicle by the vet who suggests that if drugging is used so much in hunter competition because the animals need to show as if they were drugged to win, then the judging criteria might need to be changed? He suggests that horses should not be asked to compete where they are unable to meet the present standard without drugs. This yet another example of horses for courses; do and buy what is needed to win under current conditions.[/QUOTE]

I’m amazed at the poor quality of some of the horses we see people breeding - including warmbloods. There are plenty of quarter horses, morgans, saddlebreds, etc., who will have qualities worth including in bloodlines when looking at breeding options. I agree with not immediately allowing them full registry options (having the different books) in that until they are part of a breeding program in which each generation is inspected and the desired traits are recognized for multiple generations you do not know for certain if offspring are likely to be born with the desired traits or not. Once you establish the desired qualities, why should that horse not be included? It’s the beauty of a registry - that you look for the best traits you can find, and breed for them. You look for repeatability in the qualities you want by having inspections each generation.

If you want an “American Warmblood” which is descended solely from European Warmbloods, make it a breed rather than a registry, and don’t worry about inspections, but merely insist they must be offspring of either American Warmbloods or European Warmbloods.

I bet you the registry with inspections looking for certain qualities will be the one with consistently nicer horses. If you do performance testing as Viney suggests, even more so.

I actually keep reading about the drug testing to keep horses calm, and can’t understand why every hunter person out there isn’t scouring the QH farms looking for the one who has the right look they want. Quarter horses and paints are very often born with the temperament people are drugging to get, and now would be the time for some smart QH person to start breeding for A show types, before the uphill or level and balanced show-type horses are gone. Or else find nice working quarter horses and cross them with tall horses - either way, you’ll get the brain people are trying to get via pharmaceuticals.

The principle of breeding best to best sounds wonderful, but what determines “best”? Best is a value JUDGMENT, not an objective fact, There are many different kinds of “best” where horses are concerned.

It’s sort of like minestrone versus good old American vegetable soup. Both use some of the same and some different ingredients and the taste is very different. But both can be excellent. I happen to prefer American vegetable soup with corn and lima beans, both purely American ingredients. Maybe if the Italians had had sweet corn and lima beans from the beginning we’d find those veggies in their minestrone.

[QUOTE=RacetrackReject;6207921]
Oh I understand what you are saying completely and I can agree with that, but if the point is to make a truly American Warmblood, it needs to be, well, American, yes? If not, then it’s just another registry to take money from owners of horses already registered/approved through their own breed registries.

I am not a breeder myself, but a rider who doesn’t care one lick what breed(s) a horse is if it can do it’s job.[/QUOTE]

Well, one would have to define ‘American’, since all of our horses came from Europe at some point. Is 3 generations of American-bred enough? 5 generations? 100 years of no imports in the foal’s lineage?

As for the ‘best’, yes that is a subjective phrase. The ‘best’ potential genetic material for a UL sport horse prospect is more likely from successful sport horse parents as opposed to a draft and stock horse cross, agreed? Similarly, for the ‘best’ genetic potential for a world beater cutting horse one probably wouldn’t breed a welsh x TB…
This is in no way saying that WB>QH>TB>ponies, I love my ponies, quarterhorses and warmbloods, But when buying in utero or a foal prospect, I have to be reasonable in what the sire and dam can produce (keeping in mind that breeding can be a crap shoot).

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6207764]
I’ve never understood the Euro registry WB people getting so upset about the fact that some registries permit horses of other than Euro WB acceptable blood to find homes in American registries. I’ve got several books from the days before the Euro invasion and more than a few of the show jumpers and hunters were full blood Quarter Horses or TBxs from “usually” dams of parentage that was not fully known. These horses competed in the highest class shows in the US and some of them (Bold Minstrel, for example) competed for the US internationally. They were not lesser talents. They were just darned good jumpers. Irish horses often have unknown for the dam line after the first dam, and sometimes the first dam–and things have been this way for decades. Under some of the registry requirements mentioned above, even for the “American” registries, Irish horses would not be allowed to breed.

Do we really think that contemporary Euro blood horses are that much better than the horses of the past? Do they jump higher or wider? Look at the 1968 show jumping course in Mexico City where a US TB was first individually and a Connemara pony was second. It had jumps up to 1.75 meters high and over seven feet wide. If you say that the courses today are more technical, all that means is that the courses are designed for horses who can jump high under the conditions that the courses demand. Change the course and the horse may not excel. In fact, that’s happened in Germany, of all places.

This slavish devotion to the German/Dutch marketing machine in the US is truly puzzling, especially when a) German registries were originally geographic entities, b) horses such as Halla were completely outside the registry system of the time, c) the US has a number of breeds, individuals of which may have superior talent, that are not found in Europe and are not members of the founding breeds of the German/Dutch registries (given a few Saddlebred in Holland). Those individuals of less than Euro blood, when they are given a chance to shine in competition, should also be given a chance to breed and not considered second class citizens.

What I would propose is a performance requirement for all breeding animals, regardless of the registry or the breed. Let America develop performance horses from American breeds as well as European ones. Why would German light farm horses crossed with TB and Arab be the only horses worth perpetuating for competition?

I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, that there are certain things that the saddlebred and Morgan could bring to dressage and the Quarter Horse could bring in jumping that should be objectively evaluated without bringing Euro snobbery to the table. The traditional American breeds are simply not lesser.

Edited to add: Did anyone here read the article in The Chronicle by the vet who suggests that if drugging is used so much in hunter competition because the animals need to show as if they were drugged to win, then the judging criteria might need to be changed? He suggests that horses should not be asked to compete where they are unable to meet the present standard without drugs. This yet another example of horses for courses; do and buy what is needed to win under current conditions.[/QUOTE]

applause Here here. FABULOUS post.

I’m not defensive about Cadence’s breeding - his dam was out of a Paint/Tbred cross mare, and by Art Deco, and registered and approved with AWS. So he’s about 1/8 Paint and 1/8 Tbred, 1/4 Dutch WB, and 1/2 Friesian, not enough to call a “Paint cross”, although Donatella seems to enjoy using this title - there is some personal bias in her posts. I would never refer to a horse who is 1/16 (as his offspring would be) Paint as a Paint cross - that is like referring to a Warmblood who has Tbred several generations back as a Tbred cross - they are WBs.

And he has shown through Grand Prix, and has several offspring who have received top inspection scores, and are starting under saddle and showing great brains and talent. He’s won many awards, and proven himself in the show ring and as a sire - so he’s earned his right to be a stallion.

I agree Viney - not sure why so many need to put down the American breeds and the American registries. Even Silverwood (a big, well established breeder) is open minded enough to stand a lovely Dutch WB/Paint/Tbred cross stallion. Many people forget that some of these American breeds trace back to Tbred (QH and APHA), and others have been used in some WB lines (ASB). Many American breeds have also proven themselves in the sport horse world, with Morgans winning at the international level in CDE (and I won’t even get into the number of Morgans excelling in eventing).

Sometimes it seems useless to try to have a civilized discussion on this topic on this forum:confused:

[QUOTE=ASBJumper;6208077]
applause Here here. FABULOUS post.[/QUOTE]

SECOND THAT!

[QUOTE=RacetrackReject;6207921]
Oh I understand what you are saying completely and I can agree with that, but if the point is to make a truly American Warmblood, it needs to be, well, American, yes? [/QUOTE]

No, not at all. All of the European registries readily swap bloodlines now. Dutch Warmbloods have all sorts of Holsteiner and Trakehner bloodlines in them. Totilas is by Gribaldi, a Trakehner stallion. They’re registries, not “breeds”.

I know this conversation has been milked to death in the past, but it’s worth repeating – why reinvent the wheel? If, as American breeders, we have access to successful and proven stallions and mares from Euro registries, we should just go with it. I’m sure there are some extremely exceptional Saddlebreds and Morgans out there, but still, a gamble exists on using them as breeding stock. There’s less of a gamble when using proven Euro bloodlines when breeding for sport. Simple as that.

Don’t believe in innovation, do you, Jdeboer? Thinking that incremental improvement in what works and sells will keep you on top is what destroyed the American auto manufacturers.

Viney - comparing car manufacturing to horse breeding is a bit far fetched don’t you think?

Taking a “chance” on “genetic experiments” is always worth a shot - but creating a “credible” line or registry or what EVER you want to call it depends on tracking and “repeating” the experiment through generations. And “improving” the experiment not having the EXCEPTION !
I have no idea if some of the 1/4s this or that discussed here meet the criteria - not the point.

A more realistic comparison (than auto manufacturing which is NOT biologic as short sighted as it may have been in the US) is the explosion of “poodle” crosses in dogs. I think I have now met 20 different “oodles” - Border oodles, Australian oodles, Schnauzer oodles - I could go on. Are all GREAT dogs? Well, no! Can/does the breeder reproduce or are they reproducing consistently the “crosses” that “work” and abandoning the really bad ideas? I have no idea.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6208026]
The principle of breeding best to best sounds wonderful, but what determines “best”? Best is a value JUDGMENT, not an objective fact, There are many different kinds of “best” where horses are concerned.

It’s sort of like minestrone versus good old American vegetable soup. Both use some of the same and some different ingredients and the taste is very different. But both can be excellent. I happen to prefer American vegetable soup with corn and lima beans, both purely American ingredients. Maybe if the Italians had had sweet corn and lima beans from the beginning we’d find those veggies in their minestrone.[/QUOTE]

I love the idea of American registries with specific goals. Why not have one whose main goal is hunters? Because I certainly don’t think a registry looking for horses suited to be jumpers is going to produce a whole lot of the correct temperament for hunters, really, unless you continue the drugging.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting specific traits, judging inspections (or the performance tests Viney suggests, which I think would be even better) based upon those traits, and attempting to improve as you go.

:smiley: Absolutely! I have a friend with a lovely warmblood mare of unknown breeding, but who is most undoubtedly pure warmblood. She was actually one of the highest scorers at the Old/ISR inspections this year, but isn’t Premium because of the unknown breeding. And yet, she’s not a horse who I want. I prefer lighter types, and she is a very classic type of warmblood. She has been bred much lighter and more refined (to an Arabian who is the most suited to dressage of any I have ever seen, and I live in an area with a lot of nice ones!), and her foal may well be a type I actually do very well with. It’s unknown, but that’s why the baby will be inspected as well. Because if the baby comes out funky because of some hidden genes on the dam’s side, it shouldn’t be approved. But if it comes out as well as may happen (and it is a breeding more knowledgeable breeding experts recommended in type) then the baby may be even nicer than the dam.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6208307]
Don’t believe in innovation, do you, Jdeboer? Thinking that incremental improvement in what works and sells will keep you on top is what destroyed the American auto manufacturers.[/QUOTE]

Well, seeing my breeding program involves crossing breeds, yes – obviously I do believe in innovation. I do, however, choose to take as little risk in that innovation as possible. :wink:

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;6208118]
I’m not defensive about Cadence’s breeding [/QUOTE]

It is you who posted to defend the AWS inspections saying you rarely see Paint, instead you see Warmbloods, Warmblood crosses, and your Friesian/Warmbloods. Except your very own stallion is not Friesian/Warmblood, he is Friesian/Warmblood/Paint. This supports what others are saying about American Warmblood accepting Paint and it goes against your arguement that you don’t see Paint at your inspections.

Your stallion is 1/4 Paint and 1/4 Warmblood. It is ok for you to call him a Warmblood cross, but not ok for others here to call him a Paint cross? He is as much Paint as he is Warmblood.

Maybe I do have bias. Not against your stallion personally but bias for true representation of horses. Which also is why I do not like the term American Warmblood. I think instead, it is probably not really a Warmblood.

Which was the point of this thread I think. Not to say if it is ok to breed to Paints but to say how can someone call a Paint cross or draft cross an American Warmblood, that is not really a Warmblood.

Genetic experimentation does occur all the time - the wheel is ALWAYS being reinvented. If we stick with the European Warmblood formula example - look at Warmbloods of 20 years ago, they were much different then the modern, lighter, highly-blooded Warmbloods of today. And the old colors of chestnut, gray, bay, and black have expanded - we not have pintos, palominos, even an ocassional cremello and buckskin. The big heads are much less common - remember when a WB meant an oversized bridle? Now many of them are refined and elegant (and much hotter).

There was a time when Americans were admired for their innovative ways - we led the way in space exploration, in the industrial revolution, and yes, in some horse breeding - we created the Morgan, the American Saddlebred, the Quarter Horse - all were bred as working horses (of varying types), so now that we (as a country) have become so involved with the Sport Horse world, it makes sense that we would apply our innovative ways to breeding Sport Horses too.

What I find so frustrating is that some of us who are doing things differently, and doing it responsibly (making sure our horses are productive citizens with good homes, using quality breeding stock, having our horses registered and inspected or competing) are put down by those who choose another route. I don’t ask that a Hanoverian or GOV or KWPN breeder follow my path, but I do ask that they don’t dirty it because it isn’t their path. Most of us who breed with AWS or AWR (or some of the alternative paths allowed by RPSI and Old/ISR) don’t go out and put down the Euro registries and horses, so is it too much to ask the same courtesy returned to us?

This thread started with a rant about AW (S or R, we aren’t sure), yet the rant was based on one horse, and we aren’t even sure WHICH horse that is…