American Warmblood Registry-rant

Historical notes on why something very tiny can change the world. VERY LONG

This is somewhat more limited, but… America developed its own version of the Thoroughbred. The majority of the progenitors of the American TB were from lines in the first UK General Stud Book of 1791(1781?), but a good number were not. These horses came in to the Colonies at the same time the British were creating the TB. So the roots are parallel and contemporaneous. There were some horses brought in from Spain and the Spanish colonies and quite a few dams of completely unknown lineage; in fact, all TBs start with horses of unknown lineage. But the horses imported to America by racing fans created not only the American TB but the Colonial Quarter Racing Horse, which then became the foundation of the Quarter Horse. Some other TBs were in the foundations of the Standardbred and the ASB.

In the beginning of TB racing, both here and in the UK, other than short track racing, horses ran at older ages and most racing was 4 mile heat racing. A horse had to win at least two 4 mile races in one day to be the winner overall. This was because racing to was improve the cavalry horse and not be an end in itself. Then the Brits in about 1820 started doing dashes–single races; and they started doing futurities for younger horses to prove breeding potential. Even today, geldings are not allowed to race in some of the British classics, consonant with the performance testing of the classic races. Futurities in those days mostly meant 3yos, BTW. The US didn’t leave heat racing until 40 or so years after the Brits. So the UK TB was being bred for specific traits–comparatively short speed (but not short track racing speed) over a mile to 2 1/2 miles from a completely closed population.

In the US, we have always had short track racing and bred for that; but we also bred for the stamina of the heat races. In the 1870’s we went to the British dashes, and a new wave of British importations of mares began. The old heat lines were sort of pushed aside, but not completely. We’d always imported TB sires. But in many of our mares the original Non-GSB mare lines were perpetuated, especially if they produced fast racers. Oddly enough, our population for organized racing was not completely closed until 1943; the JC maintained Appendix books for QH x TB crosses, IIRC, and also had an Appendix book for Arab crosses. All of the horses in those books, if bred to TBs, would have their descendants treated as any other American TB. And horses without JC pedigrees were allowed to race, and some became legends, like Pan Zareta.

This is getting to be a book, but allow me to continue.

Right before the turn of the 20th century, a few American horses were exported to the UK. Among these were Nearco’s third dam, Sibola and Lady Josephine’s damsire Americus, and Orby’s dam. Then a wave of US breeders relocated their operations to Europe in about 1900 because many states outlawed gambling on horses. The US breeders bred their American mares to European TB stallions and raced them and did well. Many of them located in France. Some of the results of the use of American mares were the Teddy son, Aethelstan, and the Ksar son, Tourbillon. The Brits in 1913 decided that any American TB who could not prove 100% descent from horses in the GSB would be treated as a NON-TB, allowed to race, but relegated to the Non-TB registry. Those horses who were from non-pure American lines but who had already bred UK descendants from pure UK TBs were grandfathered in. Exports in TBs went only one way, from Europe to North America, until the Pure Blood rule was modified just after WWII Now, of course, OUR JC has such a rule and non PURE horses are not even allowed to race.

What’s interesting is that all of these stallions whose genes have spread so very widely across the entire TB population in the 20th Century ALL have ancestresses who are from the UNKNOWN Colonial mares; and both Lady Josephine and Nearco have mares who descend from one of the Spanish imports–a mare named Croucher.

Why did I just go through all this? Because genetic recent research has showed that the spread of the C allele of the MSTN gene on Chromosome 18 came after the American TB entered the European population. The C was not not present in any of the historical stallions who had DNA analysis. It wasn’t in Eclipse; it wasn’t in Bend Or; it wasn’t in St. Simon; it wasn’t in Hyperion They tested 12 of the most famous historical UK stallions who were very widely used and whose body parts were preserved, and NONE of them carried the C allele. The European researchers say that Nearco was a “coalescing” point; and at the time he was breeding, so were the female descendants of Lady Josephine; and just a few years later, so was Tourbillon. The Euro researchers, who made a major error by premising their theory on a population limited to only GSB lines since the first GSB, say that they believe that where the C allele was all but absent in the historical population, it is now present in 51% of all TBs, in 70% of sprinting TBs, and in 90% of QHs. Where their incorrect premise could bite them badly is that they claim to have located the source of the C in a British native mare of the middle 1600’s. I’ve been told that the researchers believe that the C was in less than 9% of the breed founders. But it could just have easily come from one of the unknown Colonial mares, couldn’t it? Well, why not Croucher? Why couldn’t the C allele have been created or preserved in the American racing population and exported back to Europe at the turn of the 20th Century, then spread very widely with the descendants of Nearco, Lady Josephine and Tourbillon, as their descendants mated?

Point is that that one gene seems to make a major difference in what a TB is able to do and how it responds to training. One little gene, possibly from America and a non PURE mare, is in the process of swamping the entire population in less than 70 years.

Maybe there’s a gene like that in the Morgans, ASBs, etc, that would do just the same thing to the Euro WB where movement or jumping is involved if they were given a fighting chance.

Historical notes on why something very tiny can change the world. VERY LONG

This is somewhat more limited, but… America developed its own version of the Thoroughbred. The majority of the progenitors of the American TB were from lines in the first UK General Stud Book of 1791(1781?), but a good number were not. These horses came into the Colonies at the same time the British were creating the TB. So the roots are parallel and contemporaneous. There were some horses brought in from Spain and the Spanish colonies and quite a few dams of completely unknown lineage; we have over 82 American FF families that have been recognized. But all horses start with unknown lineage. The horses imported to America by racing fans created not only the American TB but the Colonial Quarter Racing Horse, which then became the foundation of the Quarter Horse. Some other TBs were in the foundations of the Standardbred and the ASB. The Standardbred went to Europe and became part of the French Trotter and Halla.

In the beginning of TB racing, both here and in the UK, other than short track racing, horses ran at older ages and most racing was 4 mile heat racing. A horse had to win at least two 4 mile races in one day to be the winner of the purse or plate. This was because racing was to improve the cavalry horse and wasn’t an end in itself. Then the Brits in about 1820 started doing dashes–single races; and they started doing futurities for younger horses to prove breeding potential. Even today, geldings are not allowed to race in some of the British classics, consonant with the performance testing purpose of the classic races. Futurities in those days mostly meant 3yos, BTW. The US didn’t leave heat racing until 40 or so years after the Brits. So the UK TB was being bred for specific traits–comparatively short speed (but not short track racing speed) over a mile to 2 1/2 miles from a completely closed population.

In the US, we have always had short track racing and bred for that; but we also bred for the stamina of the heat races. In the 1870’s we went to the British dashes, and a new wave of British importations of mares began. The old heat lines were sort of pushed aside, but not completely. We’d always imported TB sires. But in many of our mares the original Non-GSB mare lines were perpetuated, especially if they produced fast racers. Oddly enough, our population for organized racing was not completely closed until 1943; the JC maintained Appendix books for QH x TB crosses, IIRC, and also had an Appendix book for Arab crosses. All of the horses in those books, if bred to TBs, would have their descendants treated as any other American TB. And horses with Appendix JC pedigrees were allowed to race, and some became legends, like Pan Zareta.

This is getting to be a book, but allow me to continue.

Right before the turn of the 20th century, a few American horses were exported to the UK. Among these were Nearco’s third dam, Sibola and Lady Josephine’s damsire Americus, and Orby’s dam. Then a wave of US breeders relocated their operations to Europe in about 1900 because many states outlawed gambling on horses. The US breeders bred their American mares to European TB stallions and raced them and did well. Many of them located in France. Some of the results of the use of American mares were the Teddy son, Aethelstan, and the Ksar son, Tourbillon. The Brits in 1913 decided that any American TB who could not prove 100% descent from horses in the GSB would be treated as a NON-TB, allowed to race, but relegated to the Non-TB registry. Those horses who were from non-pure American lines but who had already bred UK descendants from pure UK TBs were grandfathered in. The French never adopted the UK rules, so all TBs with the colonial mares that were bred in France were just as TB as the ones from pure GSB lines. And it really doesn’t matter because their racing isn’t limited to pure TB either. After the UK rule, exports in TBs went only one way, from Europe to North America, until the Pure Blood rule was modified just after WWII. The Brits now allow owners of a proven, quality race horse in the Non TB Register who has eight generations of registered TBs since the “impure” horse to petition for inclusion in the GSB. The Australians and New Zealanders have similar rules. Now, of course, OUR racing jurisdictions do exactly the opposite, and non PURE horses (that is horses who are not in the PURE TB registry in their home country) are not even allowed to race so they can prove themselves. .

In response to WWI, a huge number of the expat American breeders returned their operations to the US. Their European bred mares from American lines and their foals brought French TB lines that had been completely absent before. Chicle is just one example, and he was a leading sire for at least a decade.

What’s interesting is that all of these horses (Nearco, Tourbillon, Lady Josephine, Aethelstan, and Orby at a minimum) whose genes have spread so very widely across the entire TB population in the 20th Century ALL have ancestresses who are from the UNKNOWN Colonial mares; and both Lady Josephine and Nearco have mares who descend from one of the Spanish imports–a 1725 or 1735 mare named Croucher.

Why did I just go through all this? Because genetic recent research has showed that the spread of the C allele of the MSTN gene on Chromosome 18 came after the American TB entered the European population. The C was not not present in any of the historical stallions who had DNA analysis done by the geneticists. It wasn’t in Eclipse; it wasn’t in Bend Or; it wasn’t in St. Simon; it wasn’t in Hyperion They tested 12 of the most famous historical UK stallions who were very widely used and whose body parts were preserved, and NONE of them carried the C allele. The European researchers say that Nearco was a “coalescing” point; and at the time he was breeding, so were the female descendants of Lady Josephine; and just a few years later, so was Tourbillon. The Euro researchers, who made a major error by premising their theory on a population limited to only GSB lines since the first GSB, say that they believe that where the C allele was once all but absent in the historical population, it is now present in 51% of all TBs, in 70% of sprinting TBs, and in 90% of QHs. Where their incorrect premise could bite them badly is that they claim to have located the source of the C in a British native mare of the middle 1600’s. I’ve been told that the researchers believe that the C was in less than 9% of the breed founders. But it could just have easily come from one of the unknown Colonial mares, couldn’t it? Well, why not Croucher? Why couldn’t the C allele have been created or preserved in the American racing population and exported back to Europe at the turn of the 20th Century, then spread very widely as the descendants of Nearco, Lady Josephine and Tourbillon mated because the different gene was a positive benefit?

The reimportation of American genes might also explain why these horses were so wildly successful here.

Point is that that one gene seems to make a major difference in what a TB is able to do and how it responds to training. One little gene, possibly from America and a non PURE mare, is in the process of swamping the entire population in less than 70 years.

Maybe there’s a gene like that in the Morgans, ASBs, etc, that would do just the same thing to the Euro WB where movement or jumping is involved if they were given a fighting chance.

Edited to add that Croucher is also in the Hasting line through his sire’s dam, Aerolite. And that means Discovery and Man O’ War, etc.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6208473]
Maybe there’s a gene like that in the Morgans, ASBs, etc, that would do just the same thing to the Euro WB where movement or jumping is involved if they were given a fighting chance.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps there is! I don’t disagree! But as a small breeder – without the resources of more well funded breeders, I’ll choose to stick with what has proven to work. I’m taking enough of a risk crossing two breeds. I think I’m making the more prudent choice for my situation. :wink:

Where is the like button!

[QUOTE=pinecone;6204897]
You sound surprised. Maybe you aren’t familiar with “American Warmbloods” :lol:. What you describe is pretty typical. This is why they can’t get any respect here or abroad. As long as they’re accepting Paints and draft horses and calling them Warmbloods, nobody is going to take them seriously.

The people over at the AWR and AWS may be geniuses, who knows. They’ve figured out how to get people to pay perfectly good money for essentially worthless papers so they can mislabel their backyard crosses as Warmbloods.

And yes, it pisses me off too to see people tarnishing the Warmblood name this way.[/QUOTE]

Viney, you are a fountain of wonderful information. Thank you for your erudite post!!
When we formalized our breeding program I used the part thoroughbred stud book, which had been part of the Jockey Club. As I recall, the addition of genetic material was handled by judicious outcrossing starting with half breds. at fifteen sixteenths a horse was given full papers as a thoroughbred.
This is much the way warmblood studbooks handle outcrossing.

You all are too hung up on the word “Warmblood”. Change that to sporthorse. The Irish want a new book for Traditional breds here because they hate that unsuspecting people are buying Irish horses that have Warmblood blood. What is the goal? To just have a registry for imports in America? Or is it to highlight American bred horses in sport?

Seems to me nobody knows what they actually want from a registry. As far as terrible backyard breeders selling to unsuspecting buyers, well no one seems to care much about papers over there anyway. In this registry you all are up in arms about, are imported Irish Draughts allowed in? We don’t really consider them warmbloods in any way shape or form here, they are traditionals. Here and more so in England you will find Shire/TB crosses. They all have to go in some book. Tell you what some of those horses are quite nice. Not really met with snobbery because they aren’t being bred for the Olympics. Maybe not a warmblood but a sporthorse yes indeed.

Just seems a silly argument. If you aren’t happy with the registry then go somewhere else. A TB cross QH may not be a Warmblood but they could be darn good sporthorses.

Terri

Totally OT - but Terri - I just noticed your signature!!! :lol: Love it!!! :slight_smile:

Thanks Taskser! One of my all time favorite songs! And I do love that line.

Terri

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the definition of a warmblood a cross between a hot blood and a cold blood? Wouldn’t that make a draft crossed with a paint/TB type a warmblood? I always thought the American Warmblood registry was a place for these type of crosses to be registered so they would have papers and could compete for year end awards etc. It also enables the horse to go out in the show world with papers that document its actual age, so there is no question of age and ownership when it is sold. There are so many unregistered horses that you cannot trace there history, what is wrong with a registry that provides this. Some draft crosses are very nice eventing and amateur type jumpers, there should be a place to register and promote them.

Essentially- if a horse is not a hot blood- and Arabian, a Thoroughbred or a Barb, and it is not a cold blood- meaning a draft horse, the horse is a warmblood.

The only time I’ve seen this disputed is when people who are completely blinded by having a brand on their horses butts (didn’t the Dutch stop branding?) come out to tell us that only their horses are warmbloods.

The theory that having registries who do approvals will create better quality horses is a very nice theory. I’ve just seen too much garbage over the years to sign on to it.

[QUOTE=SOSporthorses;6209406]
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the definition of a warmblood a cross between a hot blood and a cold blood? Wouldn’t that make a draft crossed with a paint/TB type a warmblood? I always thought the American Warmblood registry was a place for these type of crosses to be registered so they would have papers and could compete for year end awards etc. It also enables the horse to go out in the show world with papers that document its actual age, so there is no question of age and ownership when it is sold. There are so many unregistered horses that you cannot trace there history, what is wrong with a registry that provides this. Some draft crosses are very nice eventing and amateur type jumpers, there should be a place to register and promote them.[/QUOTE]

Yes, part of the problem is people not wanting to accept that warmblood means any horse that isn’t a hot- or cold- blood. The term Warmblood has morphed into something else in the US, a generic title for Euro-bred and Euro-registered sport horses. Nowhere does AWS or AWR claim to be American Hanoverians or American Holsteiners.

The original horses in the registry were often draft crosses, but we see less and less of those, and more and more horses containing at least some Euro lines. I believe, in the early days, they needed numbers to create any kind of registry with services, so they accepted just about anything - but they have really improved over the years, and people don’t give them credit for that.

I register with AWS, and think they’ve done a lot of really positive things for breeders - they help breeders recognize quality control - they offer a reasonably priced inspection process (which has become more and more selective as the registry grew), they work with USDF and USEF to help track and reward competition performance, they obtained recognition with WBFSH, etc.

And, as several of us have pointed out over and over - they have multiple levels (books) just like other registries. And they issue papers with different “premium” status - a horse who has no 'preferred" status means it didn’t score high enough to get Red, Blue, or Supreme (many years, no horses receive Supreme - that is a very hard score to obtain - Blue is also really hard, although they hand out a few Blues each year).

They are quite open about being a “performance registry” - which means each horse is individually assessed for its potential as a sport horse.

Terri - AWS will not register cold bloods or hot bloods, but they will “record” them, so there is a record of their bloodlines. They will approve a hot or cold blood for breeding if it meets the criteria (either performance critera or high enough inspection score as an adult). But an offspring of unapproved parents can be registered as long as that offspring meets the requirements on its own merit - again, this is a performance registry, so each individual horse is inspected on its own merit. There is no discussion of the horse’s breeding until after the scores are recorded - which helps avoid the politics of bloodline bias.

MO, thanks for the info. I get it now. The fact of the matter is really they are trying to promote sport, registered horses, and trackability. I think people get hung up on the word warmblood way too much. If any of these registries were the American Sporthorse society or association people might not be so annoyed. I don’t know really. I do know that near enough every registry in the world that promotes horses for sport purposes will always have unhappy people about what’s let in. Or breeding policy. So not unique to just America.

Terri

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;6209464]

Terri - AWS will not register cold bloods or hot bloods, but they will “record” them, so there is a record of their bloodlines. They will approve a hot or cold blood for breeding if it meets the criteria (either performance critera or high enough inspection score as an adult). But an offspring of unapproved parents can be registered as long as that offspring meets the requirements on its own merit - again, this is a performance registry, so each individual horse is inspected on its own merit. There is no discussion of the horse’s breeding until after the scores are recorded - which helps avoid the politics of bloodline bias.[/QUOTE]

AWS will and has registered PB Arabians as AWS. There are several even branded with the AWS brand, so not sure what you mean by AWS will not register cold bloods or hot bloods.

I haven’t been too involved with either AWS or AWR, but I have photographed many inspections. For my personal interests there are more “cons” than “pros”, but I see where there is a need for these registries. It gives many small breeder’s a place to register their sport horses that carry non traditional sport horse blood. I’ve seen improvement of quality over the last decade. My first AWS Inspection left my head spinning, especially when they approved a Saddlebred/Paint cross as a stallion - fast forward to present day - not one bad horse at the inspection. A goregous Morgan mare with a beautiful Oldenburg baby at her side - I would have been more than happy to call that baby mine! So I guess with everything that has been said for or against these registries - they are serving a purpose for many breeders, just not every breeder. Kinda sounds like all registries.

[QUOTE=SOSporthorses;6209406]
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the definition of a warmblood a cross between a hot blood and a cold blood? Wouldn’t that make a draft crossed with a paint/TB type a warmblood? [/QUOTE]

Ummm… no. It was a term that the Europeans came up with to distinguish sporthorses from hot-bloods and cold-bloods.

The term Warmblood has morphed into something else in the US, a generic title for Euro-bred and Euro-registered sport horses.

Because that’s what a real Warmblood is. That’s where these types of sporthorses – ones bred for the Olympic disciplines – originated. It’s a horse that has European bloodlines, and would qualify to enter one of the Euro main studbooks based upon it’s pedigree.

I’m sure European owners of American Saddlebreds or Quarter Horses aren’t trying to pass them off as anything other than what they are.

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;6209460]
Essentially- if a horse is not a hot blood- and Arabian, a Thoroughbred or a Barb, and it is not a cold blood- meaning a draft horse, the horse is a warmblood.

The only time I’ve seen this disputed is when people who are completely blinded by having a brand on their horses butts (didn’t the Dutch stop branding?) come out to tell us that only their horses are warmbloods.

The theory that having registries who do approvals will create better quality horses is a very nice theory. I’ve just seen too much garbage over the years to sign on to it.[/QUOTE]

Ok, major pet peeve…
Cold blood is draft.
Hot blood is arab, barb, etc
Warm blood is all in between.
Warmblood is the accepted vernacular for the various types of horses bred for sport (jumping, dressage, etc).

Warm blood =/= Warmblood.

I realize this is semantics, but there is a real difference. My QH is not a warmblood. A morgan is not a warmblood. A saddlebred is not a warmblood, but they all fall in to the ‘warm blood’ classification.

I second the ‘sport horse’ way of thinking…

http://www.americanwarmblood.org/eligibility.html

Hot bloods can be nominated, but they aren’t registered, per the website on eligibility.

The term “warmblood” is used so loosely these days; we take it to mean anything that is crossed. Like the designer dog breeds - Labradoodle, Chiweenie, PomChi. A mixed breed with a tagline and an inflated price tag.

Unlike those “breeds” of dogs, even though crossbred, they are now considered breeds. Warmbloods are basically a registry. All of the Euro registries approve stallions from other registries and even from breed registries such as TB. But they are all horses bred for sport in one form or another.

Terri

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;6209937]
Unlike those “breeds” of dogs, even though crossbred, they are now considered breeds. Warmbloods are basically a registry. All of the Euro registries approve stallions from other registries and even from breed registries such as TB. But they are all horses bred for sport in one form or another.

Terri[/QUOTE]

Designer dog crosses are not considered breeds by any major or reputable dog registry.

I thought they had classes for them. My mistake. Well there you go. Not a breed but I assume they can be registered in the fashion dog of your choice registry.

Terri