Ammy Woes: How to overcome the fear of stopping when training a green horse

[Amberley]

I have a few actionable suggestions I would make if you were my student

• You are posting with your hands (they go up and down when you post) and not releasing at all or when you do you are collapsing forward with your body. You don’t have independent hands, although you clearly ride well. This is often a fitness thing. Doing work at home to build your core and doing various saddle exercises to make your arms independent again (riding with no stirrups, or one handed with the other straight out to the side etc) will help a lot. If you ride a green horse like this he will learn to lean on the reins and not jump safely.
• That first one stride of the triple is too long for a green horse to trot in to and your trainer should have moved the first element a few feet in to accommodate your slow pace and the tiny cross rail. Paying attention to those kinds of details is why some programs are more successful than others.
• When you get into trouble you perch and pull your arms in towards your body. You can’t make them jump by pulling on the reins. Lucinda Green has an online course called Ready for Trouble that would really help you a lot to learn to ride forward safely and confidently.
• Your horse doesn’t want to take a long spot, move forward or make a big effort. He’d rather stop. This might be because he thinks he’s not allowed, he is lazy, unconfident, bad things happen when he does (his mum falls off), sore or bothered by his tack. You need to figure that out though. I would first lunge him over fences / put him in a jump chute and see if he continues to want to get right under the base and refuses to jump out of stride without a rider. I’m guessing it’s just confidence as he looks happy enough otherwise but the suggestion to peek at front rads is a good one.

Teaching a horse to jump is more than just slowly making them bigger and going for it. Every combination a young horse is ridden into should be easy, easy striding. They should get a big release over every fence until they are confident in how their body works. Free jumping and jumping under saddle should both happen in a coordinated way.

[Jealoushe]

That’s not a dirty stop imo. That’s a baby stop and I would be glad he can think and not just plow through the fences.

You guys look great I wouldn’t worry at all, just don’t forget to let go and keep your leg on

[RAyers]

Here is how I see it. I love your horse!

You had an issue and you fixed it. A triple combination is tough to learn for a green horse. They haven’t developed the skill and wisdom to understand the question.

Others have noted all sorts of things that will improve your ability to ride and train green horses. And a lot of it is about position, strength, ability to adjust, and to ride the horse that is under you in any given moment. At the same time, there is no trick to giving YOU the confidence to be confident on a green horse in order to help it grow in confidence. Some folks have it and some folks don’t.

Anyway, who cares about a green horse stopping?! THEY SHOULD! That is how they are learning. If somebody tells you they have a green horse that never stopped I will show you a liar or a terrified horse. They need to know they can stop. It is safer than jumping unbalanced.

On further thought, the only way to be confident in training green horses is to not be afraid of mistakes, of stops, and of falling. These are the things that I feel have lead me to succeed in training my green horses up the levels.

[Annie10]

I would put him on training board immediately
With trainer only riding for at least month to build up his confidence.he needs someone that has a lot to give him some and right now he’s not getting it.
Then the second and maybe third month trainer rides mostly and you once or twice a week . What happens now at his age sets the tone for the rest of his life. You don’t want to to create a problem where there doesn’t need to be one . Easier to prevent it than to fix it

[dmveventer]

Are we watching the same videos? I see a horse going around pretty pleasantly with a few baby horse bobbles, and a rider that’s doing a good job piloting him around despite a few minor position issues she could work on (as we all have). There’s absolutely nothing here to suggest OP is ruining this horse or chipping away at his confidence. The one stop where he got a little overfaced did rattle him a bit but the OP brought him through it a few more times and you can see his confidence increase through the rest of the runs. We also see the horse jump from longer and more awkward spots in other parts of the course so the ability and willingness is there.

OP, just enjoy your horse and trust the process. There will always be things to improve on but from what I can see here you guys are well-matched and you’re doing a great job. Don’t get so hung up on analyzing the things that go wrong that you lose sight of how many things went right (like 95% of the jumps in this video).

[findeight]

@Jealoushe

That’s not a dirty stop imo. That’s a baby stop and I would be glad he can think and not just plow through the fences.

Yes, thank heavens he is smart enough to protect himself (and you) from awkward jumps that can lead to injury.

Your other horse is well seasoned over jumps and can cover for your mistakes and jump anyway. Your younger horse does not know enough to figure it out for you when you make a mistakes like not being straight and pushing him not to add when he is not yet confident of his own ability.

IMO he is not lazy he just does not yet know what to do when he does not get to the base perfectly. Stay low and let him add for now. Agree to avoid the complicated gymnastics until he gets more jumping miles and maybe you tighten up on your end.

The answer to the original question is hire a Pro rider to teach the green horse over fences, somebody super confident and strong in the saddle has to teach.

[dmveventer]

@RAyers

At the same time, there is no trick to giving YOU the confidence to be confident on a green horse in order to help it grow in confidence. Some folks have it and some folks don’t.

I don’t totally agree with this. Yes, some people are naturally more confident and take to working with green horses better than others, but ultimately it’s a skill that can be learned like any other. At some point you just have to start doing it. Working with a good-minded young horse that’s been well-started and just needs to be polished up is a good way to learn by doing and build up the skillset and confidence needed to tackle more challenging horses in the future.

People on this forum like to complain about how “riders these days” can’t develop their own horses and just want to buy packers, but from the responses here I’m not sure how they expect people to learn if not by trying and making the inevitable mistakes that come with developing a new skill. The horse isn’t being harmed and seems to generally enjoy his job, so as long as horse and rider are learning and moving in the right direction then I don’t see any issues here.

[aBayDay]

I’m in no position to offer critiques or give advice, but I just wanted to let you know that your horse is adorable and I think that you are a much better rider than you’re giving yourself credit for. Your horse is going around very pleasantly, has lovely flat work, and a cute jump. I don’t see anything that is concerning, and you look like a very kind rider. We all have ups and downs with our horses, especially our younger horses, and I’m sure you’ll look back on these videos in a year and be happy with all the progress you’ve made!

[findeight]

Yeahbutt…green horses can pick up bad, lasting habits without a Pro or very strong Junior available so that Green behavior does not become ingrained.

[NaturallyHappy]

@dmveventer

point you just have to start doing it. Working with a good-minded young horse that’s been well-started and just needs to be polished up is a good way to learn by doing and build up the skillset and confidence needed to tackle more challenging horses in the future.

People on this forum like to complain about how “riders these days” can’t develop their own horses and just want to buy packers, but from the responses here I’m not sure how they expect people to learn if not by trying and making the inevitable mistakes that come with developing a new skill. The horse isn’t being harmed and seems to generally enjoy his job, so as long as horse and rider are learning and moving in the right direction then I don’t see any issues here.

My late DH was a very, very good rider…Grand Prix show jumper from Europe who rode steeple chase horses first. He really understood how to train horses, and by helping his students understand the training process, they learned to ride.
Many “trainers” (at least in my opinion) are folks who grew up riding made horses and don’t really know how to start/bring along young horses, or help their students do so. I hope I said that so it made sense.

Edited to add I’ve no idea how I quoted part of that post.

[endlessclimb]

They can, sure. Or, they can not.

It’s not a 100% given. I think they’re doing pretty well and just need repetition over time.

[dags]

First recognize the indoor is doing you no favors here, especially if you’re trying to get comfortable on the bigger step. I would be setting everything on the quieter side, especially with the tiny crossbars coming in.

He wants to rush, you can really see it in the trot in. So again I would be careful not to accidently leave him gappy and long because of the way the distances are set. I’d probably also play with a steep crossbar to get him jumping up and then over and not just across, and to help strengthen his hind end.

I fully agree with others that you’re being a bit hard on yourself! The stop was necessary, you recovered very well, and gave him the exact ride he needed when he came back unconfident the second time.

But I don’t see a horse that’s ready to make the true step yet, at least without sacrificing rhythm. The canter needs a lot of work outside the jumps. He’s not stepping under himself in the corners and he’s not using his back at all. There’s a whole lot of horse here still needing to be developed— which is great because that means there’s talent, scope and athleticism you haven’t even tapped into yet! I think once he gets stronger, more engaged, and can stand up in those corners, he’s going to be a whole lot more comfortable jumping and these kinds of questions are going to be a whole lot easier for him to answer.

The super cute jump is already there, the canter is what needs your attention. Which is a perfect way to kind of table your jumping fears for a bit and let them subside.

[mika0116]

@dags

But I don’t see a horse that’s ready to make the true step yet, at least without sacrificing rhythm. The canter needs a lot of work outside the jumps. He’s not stepping under himself in the corners and he’s not using his back at all. There’s a whole lot of horse here still needing to be developed— which is great because that means there’s talent, scope and athleticism you haven’t even tapped into yet! I think once he gets stronger, more engaged, and can stand up in those corners, he’s going to be a whole lot more comfortable jumping and these kinds of questions are going to be a whole lot easier for him to answer.

former dressage queen here so I can comment mostly on the non-fence strides as I am a comically under experienced show jumper having really only jumped ages 8-13 and then 26-30 and back now 32-34.

I think a lot more can be done on the flat and over some VERY low jumps/ cavaletti.
For larger fences, training board and have your pro ride him.

Horse is definitely not working through back and hind end looks sticky/ not super engaged. Then again I am veryyyy picky about this and have spent whole lessons getting the right canter and then only jumping like 5 fences because I believe it is futile to bother jumping without the right canter.

I also see similar canter and corners on the less green chestnut - for a lot of us AA’s it is hard to have a quality canter in a small indoor without lots and lots of intentional practice

@Amberley’s comment about your hands I now see in relation to your elbow. your elbow is stuck so your hands move with your post

trainers of mine have had me canter with my reins bridged in my outside hand and my inside hand either out to the side or in front of me straight out from my shoulder

they would also have me jump (under 2’9) like this

working up to that - try posting and then cantering on a lunge without reins hands out wide or on your hips

I say all of this because this is stuff trainers have done to me – it makes for some really transformed riding – those little underlying nits that can often make a world of difference on a green horse

[skip99]

I also was expecting a train wreck video, but overall I thought it was pretty pleasant. The stop, as others have mentioned, was definitely not dirty. The distance between the first two jumps wasn’t appropriate and his brain was trying to figure out how he was going to get over the third jump as well. It wasn’t a line that was setting him up for success. Seems very cute and sensible.

I did want to mention that it looks like your leg is very in front of you, a little less so on your older horse. While I like to stay a bit behind the motion on a young horse who needs confidence that comes from the upper body staying back more rather than the leg being in front of you. This is possibly contributing to being rigid in your arm since your balance isn’t supported by your leg. I would be spending a lot of time during flat rides standing or two-pointing to work on this.

Just another lowly ammy here so take my 2 cents for what it’s worth don’t be so hard on yourself, it’s a journey!!

[Tha_Ridge]

I haven’t read all the replies but those I have reinforce a lot of my feelings after watching the video. The horse is cute, way overfaced, and your trainer doesn’t know how to set gymnastics or combinations for green horses.

I’ve brought along a lot more TBs than many folks on this very thread and this is clearly a smart, athletic horses who’s being asked to do something that isn’t necessarily beyond his scope or athleticism but is beyond his mindset and physical development. That combination, as @CBoylen pointed out, was a disaster not because of him but because it’s trappy and dangerous to canter into something set like that and expect the horse to jump out.

Can I ask about your bit choice on him? That’s one bit I really, really don’t like on the OTTBs, given their tendency to want to curl and get behind the vertical right off the bat. This horse doesn’t look hot enough to warrant that much bit.

[Paint_Party]

When I watch the videos, your lower leg is tighter on the chestnut. On the bay, especially at the canter and the last few strides before some of the jumps, your lower leg comes away from your horse and (as mentioned above) you either hold with your hands or rotate them backwards. Yet with the chestnut, you have a softer hand and more of a release over the jumps. These are perhaps subtle differences in your position, but they are differences nonetheless.

Does the chestnut horse have smoother gaits? Is he easier to sit? Or do you think you ride in more of a defensive posture on the bay because you don’t trust him to the same degree as the chestnut?

And yes, the stop was a good thing. It wasn’t dirty. The two of you drifted in, off the track, and that ruined your distance. He literally could not make that work. I thought you calmly regrouped, came back and ultimately finished on a good school.

[wanderlust]

@Tha_Ridge

I haven’t read all the replies but those I have reinforce a lot of my feelings after watching the video. The horse is cute, way overfaced, and your trainer doesn’t know how to set gymnastics or combinations for green horses.

I’ve brought along a lot more TBs than many folks on this very thread and this is clearly a smart, athletic horses who’s being asked to do something that isn’t necessarily beyond his scope or athleticism but is beyond his mindset and physical development. That combination, as @CBoylen pointed out, was a disaster not because of him but because it’s trappy and dangerous to canter into something set like that and expect the horse to jump out.

Agree with all of this, and what @dags said too. Wrong exercises set at the wrong distances for what you are trying to accomplish, especially in the indoor. You are doing fine with him! But riding a sucked-back looky green horse into a very forward-riding one-to-one, especially with that oxer in the middle, was asking for trouble.

Your horse is a sweetheart and I love that he just stood there and let you put yourself back into place.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

@dmveventer

People on this forum like to complain about how “riders these days” can’t develop their own horses and just want to buy packers, but from the responses here I’m not sure how they expect people to learn if not by trying and making the inevitable mistakes that come with developing a new skill. The horse isn’t being harmed and seems to generally enjoy his job, so as long as horse and rider are learning and moving in the right direction then I don’t see any issues here.

Yes! Well said.

OP, cute horse and you’re doing great. Unless your trainer is concerned about your safety, keep doing what you’re doing. Maybe ask for a little bit of a step back on complexity for the jumping, work with a neck strap and maybe some takeoff-landing poles to help… but you’re doing well. Keep learning and enjoy the process! And it’s ok to ask someone to hop on and help, if that will help you get the confidence from watching.

[awaywego]

@dmveventer

People on this forum like to complain about how “riders these days” can’t develop their own horses and just want to buy packers, but from the responses here I’m not sure how they expect people to learn if not by trying and making the inevitable mistakes that come with developing a new skill. The horse isn’t being harmed and seems to generally enjoy his job, so as long as horse and rider are learning and moving in the right direction then I don’t see any issues here.

Can’t agree with this more. Also: not everyone can afford training board! I am absolutely not saying that is the case with this OP - I do not pretend to know anyone’s financial situation. But I want to point out that it is not always an option for everyone’s budget. We can’t lament how elitist and expensive the sport is when “pay someone else” is the go-to response.

[findeight]

The OP specifically asked how to overcome her fear of stopping when training a Green horse.

IME, the Green horse looks to the rider and when said rider is scared it transfers to the horse. This horse was sensible and stooped when he got confused and got that message. Horse thought “You mean you are scared too?”.

How rider overcomes that is with help from somebody else. Somebody has to communicate confidence to the horse. This OP has been on here for some time, she is no novice. But we all have things we are better at than others and sometimes lose sight of that. Honest, experienced opinions can help .

In this case all the other pieces of the puzzle are there, at this point it is fixable, just needs a little help from a confident rider and a tuneup via more flatwork and better position.

All of my horses were backed off in anything but huge indoor rings, asking even the most seasoned to open their stride was yet another reason to hate winter…but it was nothing a good outside gallop could not fix.

Worth noting none of my trainers set anything long indoors and we got scolded for leaving any strides out. The adds can be your friends and chips preferable to flyers when you miss, that goes double with a Greenie in an indoor.